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Intro

Can be found here:

• Links to listen

• Links of references from the show

• Production learnings

• Story Time

• Episode Summary

• Episode Transcript

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Important links and mentions

• Carly Valentine

• Mads Gullion

• Swap Sesh Indy

Third Space Indy is supported by City Rising

Episode Summary

Host Michael Zarick interviews Mads Gullion and Carly Valentine of Swap Sesh, a free monthly clothing exchange. Started by Carly about two years ago and later co-led with Mads, Swap Sesh now meets at the Garfield Park Arts Center every third Saturday (12:00–2:30), where attendees bring up to 10 items. They discuss how swaps help people experiment with style without the cost and pressure of shopping, and how the project supports anti-consumerism and waste reduction amid large amounts of textile waste. They reflect on community-building through regular attendees, mending and repair workshops, and concerns about enabling overconsumption, emphasizing the community impact.

00:00 Why Swaps Matter

00:54 Third Place Intro

01:40 Meet Swap Sesh Hosts

03:33 How They Met

06:07 What Is Swap Sesh

07:23 Why They Started

09:18 Textile Waste Reality

10:10 Community Closet Idea

12:54 Who Shows Up

14:41 Indy Gay Market Tangent

16:21 Building Friendships

17:34 Finding a New Home

18:52 Mending and Repair

19:46 Reduce Reuse Recycle

21:03 Anti Consumerism Talk

23:33 Are Swaps Enabling

26:43 Invite and Next Swap

28:34 Style Evolution

29:32 Swap Finds and Style Experiments

30:19 Menswear Limits and Pocket Politics

32:36 Gendered Fashion and Wearing What You Want

33:56 Cars, Athleisure, and Fashion Shifts

37:56 Uniform Dreams and Workwear Comfort

39:48 Sponsor Break and Defining Third Space

41:09 College Third Spaces and Lost Hangouts

45:37 Neighborhoods, Libraries, and Childhood Spaces

49:46 Yearly Reflection and Spoon Theory

55:15 Next Guest Questions and Wrap Up

Episode Transcript

Carly and Mads

[00:00:00] Carly Valentine: Like it's so hard to find like the perfect pair of pants for you and the perfect shirt for you. And the fact that we have this opportunity to like let people try stuff on and like not feel obligated to buy things, like every time they go out is I think like really beneficial to a lot of the women that come to our swaps.

[00:00:18] Mads Gullion: Yeah. And I, I think in general, people who are. I don't know, experimenting with a new style Or queer and trans folks who are, you know, trying out a new, a new way of dressing. It's a, it's really expensive to buy new clothes, , and to, to fit a, a body that's changing or growing. So it's cool to, to be a resource for that.

[00:00:54] Michael Zarick: Hello. My name is Michael Zarick and this is Third Space Indy. In 1989, a man named Ray Oldenberg wrote a book called The Great Good Place. , In this book he coined the term, the third place. This describes a place that is outside of your work and outside of your home that you can go be with others, be yourself, make friends, and converse, and just be.

So, I've made it my goal here in Indianapolis to find people all over the city who are doing their very best to build these types of spaces. Which brings me to today's guests. There are multiple, um, who run a free clothing. Exchange.

[00:01:35] Carly Valentine: Swap.

[00:01:35] Michael Zarick: Swap. That's probably a more appropriate word, uh, called Swap Sesh.

So I'm joined by Mads Gullion and Carly Valentine. Hello.

[00:01:44] Mads Gullion: Hello.

[00:01:45] Michael Zarick: Yeah,

[00:01:45] Mads Gullion: hi.

[00:01:46] Michael Zarick: Fresh out of work. Literally not, uh, in the fired way in the, they just got off work

[00:01:52] Carly Valentine: in the nine to five Grind way.

[00:01:53] Michael Zarick: In the nine to five grind way. Um, so first of all, how are you doing?

[00:01:59] Carly Valentine: Doing really good. I'm super excited to be here. First podcast I've ever been on, and I wouldn't choose a different one.

[00:02:05] Michael Zarick: You wouldn't choose a different one. That's a kind, uh, admission. I feel

[00:02:10] Mads Gullion: great. It's a little cold. I feel like we're having a, a better time than the people doing burpees out there.

[00:02:15] Carly Valentine: Yeah. Yeah. This view is incredible.

[00:02:18] Michael Zarick: We are getting a nice sunset. It's later in the evening. so I just wanna tell I sh well, first of all, short story, my friend Kirsten.

Who lives in you reminded me of this, which I really appreciate. My friend Kirsten, who lives in Chicago, uh, met Mads at a conference in St. Louis and was like, you should listen to my friend's podcast in Indianapolis.

[00:02:41] Mads Gullion: It was a great elevator ride.

[00:02:43] Michael Zarick: It was literally just like a elevator

[00:02:44] Mads Gullion: pitch in an elevator.

Yeah, it was an elevator pitch for Third Space Indy.

[00:02:47] Michael Zarick: That's so funny. Um, and then for Carly, I was sitting at the 1656 Club the other day. Wait, do you remember this? That was

[00:02:56] Mads Gullion: you, yes.

[00:02:57] Michael Zarick: I was sitting at the 1656 Club with Alexa of Alley Cat Ceramics the other day, and we took a selfie and later, like an hour or two later, Alexa texts me and goes, Michael.

That woman in the background, that's car, that's Carly who, uh, helps run Swap Sesh. Oh. Like, oh my

[00:03:14] Mads Gullion: God.

[00:03:15] Michael Zarick: Uh, this was like a week ago and she was like, you should have them on the podcast. I was like, okay. Sure. Which I, you guys have already been on my mind.

[00:03:22] Mads Gullion: Yes.

[00:03:22] Michael Zarick: Um, so can you talk a little bit about, um, well actually, first of all, like, you guys are friends, I think.

[00:03:31] Mads Gullion: I think so.

Yeah,

[00:03:31] Carly Valentine: I think so. I hope so.

[00:03:33] Michael Zarick: Can you tell the, tell the people how you met and like how you became friends?

[00:03:36] Carly Valentine: We actually met through Swap Sesh.

[00:03:38] Michael Zarick: Oh, really?

[00:03:38] Carly Valentine: Yeah. So, um, I actually, well, I started it, um, I was inspired by Kayla Bledsoe, who was I think on your podcast before. Um, and she, uh, was doing a clothing swap and I just kind of like was inspired by the idea.

So I started it, um, like two years ago now. And um, I did 'em at Mystery Fun Club and that's. How we met, um, MAD's. What

[00:04:03] Michael Zarick: was Mystery? Fun Club.

[00:04:04] Carly Valentine: Oh, mystery Fun Club. It's like a, it was an art supply store. Oh, okay. In Fountain Square. Um, but yeah, MAD's like started volunteering at them and like, I think, I don't know if you recognized I needed the extra set of hands or something, but, um, yeah, we ended up becoming friends through that and um, I it was, yeah.

Do you want it?

[00:04:27] Mads Gullion: I, sorry. I think I, you're doing great. I think I came to the second swap maybe. And

[00:04:32] Michael Zarick: when was this?

[00:04:34] Mads Gullion: 20, 24. Early 2024. So we're in our third year of swaps. Let's go. The full first year was at Mystery Fun Club, which closed, so we had to find a new location. Um, but it was a pretty small space compared to what we work with now.

Mm-hmm. And so it was packed and there was like tables with piles of clothes. and I inserted myself. I, in, in college, I managed a free store.

[00:04:58] Michael Zarick: Oh.

[00:04:58] Mads Gullion: So like. 24 7, just a room full of stuff that people could take.

[00:05:03] Michael Zarick: Is this, wait, can you describe the, the setup? Was it like an actual store or was this like a, like someone's dorm room?

[00:05:10] Mads Gullion: No, it was in an academic building. Oh, okay. We had a dedicated like space that students and faculty and staff could access. Oh, okay. And you just, you left what you didn't need and took what you did need. Um, so I missed doing that and I came to Carly's Swap and said, I'm gonna help you.

[00:05:30] Michael Zarick: Was it that forceful?

[00:05:32] Mads Gullion: I dunno. I was like, can I help? And then I just kept coming around. So eventually I What, wormed my way into a leadership position?

[00:05:40] Carly Valentine: Well, I mean, it, it felt like more like a mutual like understanding I think like the more like we did them together, like the more it was just kind of like working out. So like we both could.

Like, I don't know, have like a shared role. And I mean the only thing preventing you from like having the leadership position was not having the Instagram login. And then I was like, do you want the Instagram login? You're like, okay. And then now it's like, you know, we have it. That's funny. If we're sharing this beautiful baby.

[00:06:07] Michael Zarick: So for people who may not know what occurs at this for any reason, can you describe the Swap Sesh event? Yeah. Which is 12 to 3 every third Saturday.

[00:06:18] Carly Valentine: Actually now it's 12 to 2:30. We updated the time. Yes.

[00:06:22] Michael Zarick: Need to update that Instagram description.

[00:06:25] Carly Valentine: You know what, I thought about that and thank you for the reminder.

Um, okay. Yeah. But, so yeah, every third Saturday, 12 to two 30, um, we invite people to come here to Garfield Park Art Center and bring up to 10 clothing items that they don't wear anymore or didn't fit them right. Um, and then they can exchange it for. Any kind of items that they want that other people bring.

[00:06:47] Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm. Um,

[00:06:48] Carly Valentine: but

[00:06:48] Michael Zarick: it's always clothes.

[00:06:49] Carly Valentine: Yeah. Okay. Yes. Well, now actually we do art supplies too.

[00:06:52] Michael Zarick: Mm.

[00:06:52] Carly Valentine: So, um, we're partnering with Craft Raft. Brittany is her name. Mm. And she does like the art supply section of it, but we just manage the clothes. Yeah. It's, and then, um, at the end of the swap, we pack everything up and whatever doesn't get taken, we donate to, uh, Fletcher Place Community Center.

[00:07:10] Michael Zarick: Oh, that's

[00:07:10] Carly Valentine: cool. Right down the street. Yeah. And yeah, it just gets donated to the houseless people in the area. So it's all like, you know, staying local, it's not going to Goodwill or any kind of corporation.

[00:07:23] Michael Zarick: what's like, so you were inspired by someone else, but like, what about like, offering a free clothing swap for people is like, what's your like, driving force?

[00:07:36] Carly Valentine: Um, for me personally, I've always been like anti-fast, fashion, anti, like. Amazon, you know, like anti shopping online. I'm a very, uh, like, uh, I'm a very analog, passionate person, so, um, I Oh, is sorry. Okay. Um, so I was like instantly drawn to this idea of like, not only being able to like, you know, shop in person, but shop in person for free.

I love free stuff. So

[00:08:07] Mads Gullion: free returns too.

[00:08:07] Carly Valentine: Yes, exactly. Um, and then I also like love like the idea of third places too, and I was like, oh my God, like having this thing monthly, this like free event monthly is exactly what I would want. So I thought other people would want it too. And, um, yeah, and I also am a graphic designer, so I was like, oh, I can like, make these monthly events and then make a fun little flyer and like have fun with my graphic design skills and, I don't know, just have this new thing.

That's why I like doing it.

[00:08:39] Mads Gullion: Yeah. It was really fun once we started getting regulars true,

[00:08:43] Carly Valentine: like

[00:08:43] Mads Gullion: people we knew by name because they, they came every month.

[00:08:46] Carly Valentine: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:47] Mads Gullion: Um, this year's structure's a little different. We are, we're doing what, eight this year,

[00:08:51] Carly Valentine: I think.

[00:08:52] Mads Gullion: Yes. Eight or nine. Yeah. Like we, because I feel like

[00:08:54] Carly Valentine: half did,

[00:08:55] Mads Gullion: I think, yeah.

Last year we did like 16. So we left some room this year to do bonus swaportunities. Swap opportunities. We call them

[00:09:05] Carly Valentine: MAD's. Made up that term.

[00:09:06] Mads Gullion: It's a genius. I did, I did. Uh, 'cause we wanna like, we wanna do them here, our regular swaps, but we also wanna be able to take it out into the community and do things like earth Fest.

[00:09:14] Carly Valentine: Mm-hmm. And we're doing a north mass boulder too.

[00:09:17] Mads Gullion: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

I think I, I, well, I guess like reason, um, I, I work in the environmental world, um, and the, the sheer amount of clothing that is produced and thrown away is mind boggling. I think in the US we're close to like 91 pounds of textile waste per person per year.

Don't quote me on that, but I think that's pretty close to accurate.

[00:09:45] Carly Valentine: That does

[00:09:45] Mads Gullion: sound accurate.

[00:09:46] Carly Valentine: Um,

[00:09:46] Mads Gullion: and a lot of what we donate to places like Goodwill ends up in the landfill.

[00:09:51] Carly Valentine: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:52] Mads Gullion: Um, so whenever we can divert that stream and just, and keep it in a loop a little bit longer, um, that's great. And it's really fun to see.

There's certain, like that green dress,

[00:10:05] Carly Valentine: oh my God,

[00:10:06] Mads Gullion: that came back three or four times before it found, its like final home. There are certain pieces

[00:10:10] Michael Zarick: I have, I have a, I have a thought about that and I, I'm so glad you brought up like a specific thing that, uh, evokes a memory for you. Because in my mind it's like you, your event of swap session, especially when you have returning people, it's almost like rather than having your individual closet, you have.

A community closet that you have access to. Ooh. Because people are like, if, especially if there's like a, a dress that's, it's like sisterhood of the traveling pants type type shit. Mm-hmm. Yep. Um, where it's like, oh my God, I love that dress. Like everyone can try it on. Eventually.

[00:10:44] Mads Gullion: I haven't seen it in a while and I, and I joke that like, you know, if you're not sure about it, go home, try it on, wear it for a month and then bring it back if it doesn't work.

Mm-hmm. Like free returns because you know, it'll eventually find the person it's supposed to go to. I have rediscovered, I think my own shorts, like, I think I donated Wow. That pair of shorts. We had a swap out here and I went and tried on shorts in it. Yeah. Everyone was like, aren't those yours? Or, or something like that.

It was like, oh, I don't know why I gave these away. These are great.

[00:11:17] Carly Valentine: Yeah.

[00:11:18] Mads Gullion: Wait, and you took them back? I did, I did. Wow. Community closet. Wait, that's true.

[00:11:23] Michael Zarick: So you, you gave away a pair of shorts and you. Then return them to yourself? Was it, I, I'm interested in this phenomena. Was it like a, oh, I really liked, like I missed them?

Or was it like a, sorry. I, it's like seeing

[00:11:40] Mads Gullion: it from a new light.

[00:11:41] Michael Zarick: Yeah. I wonder like you wore a bunch of other shirts, you're like, ah, I missed the old ones.

[00:11:44] Mads Gullion: That's true. I mean, I think it was more of a body fluctuation thing where they didn't fit and so I donated them and then I tried them on again and they fit.

And I've learned with denim at least, I just need to keep it. And yeah, one, one day it might fit again.

[00:11:58] Carly Valentine: And that's like another good thing about the

[00:12:00] Mads Gullion: swaps. This is being an adult woman.

[00:12:02] Carly Valentine: Yeah, exactly. Like it's so hard to find like the perfect pair of pants for you and the perfect shirt for you. And like the fact that we have this opportunity to like let people try stuff on and like not feel obligated to buy things, like every time they go out is I think like really beneficial to a lot of the women that come to our swaps.

[00:12:22] Mads Gullion: Yeah. And I, I think in general, people who are. Um, I don't know, experimenting with a new style Or queer and trans folks who are, you know, trying out a new, a new way of dressing. It's a, it's really expensive to buy new clothes, um, and to, to fit a, a body that's changing or growing. So it's cool to, to be a resource for that.

Like, absolutely. I don't know, do I look good in button-ups? Like, let me take a few from a swap and Yeah. You know, maybe this is my look, maybe it's not.

[00:12:51] Carly Valentine: Mm-hmm. I love that.

[00:12:54] Michael Zarick: That's really interesting insight because I also am very self-conscious about my lack of, uh, style this time, and I'm trying to like, work on that.

Uh, I think mentally and I think there's a lot of pressure to like go out and buy clothing. Um,

[00:13:07] Carly Valentine: it's true,

[00:13:07] Michael Zarick: but when I have people like you as a resource there, is there men's clothing? Can I pull up?

[00:13:11] Carly Valentine: Yes. I was about to say, please come. We need like more men's clothing. We need more men to show up to the event.

These events, like just masculine clothing in general. Is, is, and I, I don't know if, if it's like. The demographic we're reaching because of our, like, how we advertise on social media. Like that's something that I'm kind of like exploring, like, 'cause I can look at like the, um, analytics of my Instagram post and like 60% at least are women.

Like it's always the majority.

[00:13:38] Michael Zarick: It's, it's pretty close to half though, kind of. Oh, but you said at least,

[00:13:41] Carly Valentine: yeah,

[00:13:41] Michael Zarick: minimum.

[00:13:42] Carly Valentine: Yeah.

[00:13:42] Michael Zarick: So I don't know if you saw, but earlier this week I posted my analytics. I did. And I have like 74% women who follow me. And I was like, where are the men? And I went on a, um,

[00:13:53] Mads Gullion: third spaces are for boys too.

[00:13:54] Michael Zarick: They are, they're, they're for everybody. Actually. Men need them more than women, if I'm being honest. Mm-hmm. Uh, especially this time. But, uh, I actually went on a food podcast earlier this, I was invited on and he go, he sent me his analytics, uh, in reply and he goes, yeah, just talk about like deer balls and, and, and like meat.

And I was like, he goes, you'll find the men

[00:14:15] Mads Gullion: guns, trucks.

[00:14:18] Michael Zarick: Um, very

[00:14:19] Mads Gullion: stereotypical.

[00:14:21] Michael Zarick: Uh, oh gosh. What? Like,

[00:14:25] Mads Gullion: my posture's been terrible this whole time.

[00:14:27] Michael Zarick: I shrimp hard.

[00:14:28] Carly Valentine: It's these benches, man. They're cold on my buns.

[00:14:32] Michael Zarick: That was a very nice thing about the food podcast. He gave me like a blanket for the stool I had. He goes that, he goes, that's probably cold. I should probably think about that. I'm a lightweight traveler.

Um, I'm also supposed to recreate the thing we did before the podcast, which I also really love your earrings. And you lit up when I said that.

[00:14:47] Mads Gullion: Oh, thank you. They're my little, they're my little mugs.

[00:14:51] Michael Zarick: Did you make them?

[00:14:52] Mads Gullion: Um, no I didn't. I got them at Indy Gay Market.

[00:14:54] Michael Zarick: Oh,

[00:14:56] Mads Gullion: plug, plug, plug.

[00:14:56] Carly Valentine: Indy gay Market.

[00:14:58] Michael Zarick: Are you guys involved with them at all?

[00:14:59] Mads Gullion: I am, yeah. Oh,

[00:15:00] Michael Zarick: oh. I do

[00:15:00] Mads Gullion: the flyers for

[00:15:01] Michael Zarick: them too. Wait, wait. Okay. Actually, we, we heard you talking about that at 1656 Club.

[00:15:07] Carly Valentine: Oh my god. Wait.

[00:15:08] Michael Zarick: And that was. Small world. Wait, so when we took the selfie

[00:15:12] Carly Valentine: Yep.

[00:15:12] Michael Zarick: And she sent me the photo. She goes, you remember that girl that I was talking about, the Indy Gay market?

[00:15:16] Carly Valentine: Yes. No, I'm glad that you brought that up, because she like sent me the picture and like I like saw her take that picture and I was focusing, I was like actually working on a flyer for Indy Game Market and like when I focus, I like do this thing where I stick out my tongue. Oh. And like I like looked up and was sticking out my tongue as soon as she took it.

And I was like, oh my God. I like just photo bombed. That picture so hard.

[00:15:38] Mads Gullion: I also focused tongue so hard.

[00:15:40] Carly Valentine: Yeah. Yep. So she sent it to me and I didn't realize she was talking to you, so it's like full circle now.

[00:15:46] Michael Zarick: Yeah. She was like, Michael, we should go to 1656 Club. And I was like, you're trying to get me to drive across the, there's not a convenient bus that goes there.

And I live in Broad Ripple. Oh, okay. Uh, and I love riding the bus. Shout out IndyGo always. Woo. Uh, but I did drive there. And it was still like 25, 30 minutes. Mm. And I was like, you're making me drive across the, but it was a lovely, Hey, it's worth

[00:16:05] Carly Valentine: it.

[00:16:06] Michael Zarick: Lovely little coffee shop. Yeah. 60, 50. Say

[00:16:09] Carly Valentine: 1656 Club 56

[00:16:10] Michael Zarick: have

[00:16:11] Carly Valentine: cool window art.

Oh yeah.

[00:16:13] Michael Zarick: They just have cool art in general.

[00:16:13] Carly Valentine: The window artist there. It's very cool.

[00:16:15] Michael Zarick: Yeah. Paloma, the owner is really nice too.

[00:16:17] Carly Valentine: Yes, yes.

[00:16:17] Michael Zarick: Yeah. Um, we love local shoutouts. Uh, can you, um, talk about like,

well, I'm interested 'cause you said you have like returning guests.

[00:16:33] Carly Valentine: Yeah.

[00:16:33] Michael Zarick: Um, which means you have sort of like a, I mean, in a way you're creating a Third Space of your own. Um, are there individuals that like you have started to like, hang out with? Like outside of this? Other than each other maybe?

[00:16:47] Carly Valentine: Yeah. I mean, honestly I would say some of my other close friends I've like met through the swaps too, like Edith and um, my other friend Marissa, I like met them.

Uh, no. Meadows,

[00:16:59] Mads Gullion: Meadows, McDowell

[00:17:00] Carly Valentine: Meadows McDowell. I always forget the second one anyways. Um, yeah, like, I don't know, I think we have like our own little like friend group that we made and 'cause after each swap, you know, we're done packing stuff up, and then every once in a while we'll go to Upland or something and hang out.

we haven't done it in a while. We should probably start doing that again.

[00:17:18] Mads Gullion: Okay, that's

[00:17:18] Carly Valentine: fine. Um,

[00:17:19] Mads Gullion: I think the big ones for me are the, the staff of Garfield Park Art Center. True. Like, I love, well, Bryn is, Bryn doesn't work here anymore, but Bryn and Sunshine and Griff are all incredible people. Mm-hmm. That, I don't know, it's cool.

We get to see them like once a month.

[00:17:33] Michael Zarick: Yeah. I was actually gonna ask about your relationship with, so I don't think we've actually mentioned it. We're at the Garfield Parks Art Garfield Park Art Center.

[00:17:41] Mads Gullion: Yeah.

[00:17:41] Carly Valentine: Gpac.

[00:17:42] Michael Zarick: Gpac.

[00:17:42] Carly Valentine: Gpac.

[00:17:43] Michael Zarick: Uh, and, um, like what is, so you had to move from that art store to mm-hmm. This was your first space after that?

[00:17:52] Carly Valentine: Yes. Yeah.

[00:17:53] Michael Zarick: So what is your, like relationship with. GPAC and maybe Indy Parks or like, has it been like a good development?

[00:18:00] Mads Gullion: Oh yeah. Who reached out to you?

[00:18:01] Carly Valentine: Sunshine actually reached out, um, after Mystery Fun Club closed and, well, actually, no, it was even before they closed and she was like, oh my God. Like I

[00:18:12] Mads Gullion: Wait.

Was it before or after? It was before.

[00:18:14] Carly Valentine: Okay. Yeah. And I forget exactly how it ended up working out, but like, they were closing as soon as Sunshine like reached out and she was like, Hey, like we would really love to have you guys do like maybe a clothing swap here. And I'm like, oh my God, we actually need a new place to do it.

And then we were like, and she was like, oh my God, we can do it monthly here. And then it just kind of worked out like that.

[00:18:36] Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:37] Carly Valentine: Yeah.

[00:18:37] Mads Gullion: What was our first, our first swap wasn't actually a swap, was it? And I don't remember why we did that. This is this, this can cut this. I'm like, oh,

[00:18:46] Michael Zarick: you're allowed

[00:18:46] Mads Gullion: our first.

Because the January, we were like, let's not do a swap. Uhhuh. I taught a class. Oh, why was that?

[00:18:52] Carly Valentine: Oh, we did a mending. I think we just wanted to do a mending. I remember repair shop.

[00:18:57] Michael Zarick: But that's not the only mending thing you've done.

[00:19:00] Mads Gullion: No, but that was the beginning of it. That was like, 'cause I, I teach my friends and stuff and I, I mend, I mend clothes for people, but

[00:19:06] Carly Valentine: mm-hmm.

[00:19:07] Mads Gullion: I think that's the first time I, I taught a class and then it was like, oh, this is a thing I wanna do more of. And I got that opportunity because of swaps.

[00:19:14] Carly Valentine: Yeah. I think we honestly wanted to just like, highlight your class and like, so we didn't do a swap the first month. Instead as a celebration for the new space, we're like, mend the clothes that you get or like, not get from the swap.

Don't bring clothes with holes in them to the swap, but like mend clothes that you can't bring to the swap so you can continue wearing them, I think was the idea.

[00:19:36] Mads Gullion: Yeah.

[00:19:37] Carly Valentine: Yeah.

[00:19:37] Mads Gullion: It's all in the same ecosystem.

[00:19:39] Carly Valentine: Yep.

[00:19:39] Mads Gullion: Repair is radical. Take care of the stuff you have. Don't buy new.

[00:19:44] Carly Valentine: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:46] Michael Zarick: The cycle of recycling, which is, uh, Nope.

Brain reuse.

[00:19:55] Carly Valentine: Yeah. Reuse. Reuse,

[00:19:56] Michael Zarick: reduce, re reduce. Wait. No, no. Reduce first. Reduce, reduce, reuse, recycle.

[00:20:02] Carly Valentine: Yes.

[00:20:02] Michael Zarick: They teach you. Oh, that's what you're going. Thank you. I was fi I was like, what is, what are these words that I haven't said in like 10 years? Um, they're in that order for a reason, you know, like it's about you should reduce your consumption first.

Mm-hmm.

[00:20:13] Carly Valentine: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:13] Michael Zarick: Reuse things so you didn't reduce your consumption uhhuh and then recycle as a last option. And I think we've sort of defaulted as a society to just recycling

[00:20:22] Carly Valentine: True.

[00:20:23] Michael Zarick: Um, and that I think plays into a lot of your sort of, uh, guiding principles. But the first thing is re uh, reduce with reuse in the middle, which is the sort of space you're

[00:20:33] Mads Gullion: Yeah.

[00:20:34] Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm. Occupying.

[00:20:36] Mads Gullion: Yeah, I'll say, I'd say like about recycling. I don't know that we've defaulted that or that's just been the thing sold to us by the companies producing the plastic banger. It's not really our fault

[00:20:47] Michael Zarick: banger.

[00:20:47] Mads Gullion: It's like you have a problem with all the plastic we are creating that you're consuming.

It's still your problem.

[00:20:56] Michael Zarick: Yeah. But if I stop using plastic straws, the seals will live.

[00:20:59] Mads Gullion: I've, I've the turtles. Yeah. Yeah. I've heard, I've heard that. That's true.

[00:21:03] Michael Zarick: so like what, I wanna talk more about this sort of, this mindset of like reducing consumption.

[00:21:11] Mads Gullion: Yeah.

[00:21:11] Michael Zarick: Because I think that's something that we get caught up in.

Um, well, even today, like I mentioned to you earlier, I was in a clothing store. It's a local brand and they're lovely and the clothing is really high quality, but um, at the same time it's still like feeding into that, constant need for purchasing more stuff. Like what are your thoughts on that sort of.

Thinking.

[00:21:32] Carly Valentine: Oh, well, I was just gonna say like, I am very, like, as I said earlier, very anti consumerist. At least for myself personally. I don't judge people, you know, entirely for, you know, wanting to splurge every once in a while, like wanting to treat themselves. Um, that's fine. But I think as long as you're doing it in like a very conscientious MA manner, it's like healthy.

I think there is like a line that all these corporations want people to cross, where it's like, if you feel like you wanna treat yourself, you should every single time. And you should. It's like a

[00:22:04] Mads Gullion: retail therapy.

[00:22:05] Carly Valentine: Yes, exactly. And it becomes like very, like, addicting. It's like an addiction and,

[00:22:12] Mads Gullion: but the, the system is designed that way.

That's like they companies spend so much on advertising to get you to feel that urge to buy a new thing.

[00:22:21] Carly Valentine: Yeah.

[00:22:22] Mads Gullion: It's like individual action matters and you do have choice, but like. It's, it's set up against you.

[00:22:28] Carly Valentine: Yeah, and I mean, like our clothing swaps, I feel like I, I would like to think that they make people slow down a little bit with their consuming.

I mean, I don't know what happens to the clothes once they leave the swap. Like people could be, you know, uh, like not wearing them, taking 'em to goodwill even, like, I don't know. But, um, I think it helps people slow down and like actually see like, okay, like what do I have to donate? And they have like a bunch of clothes to donate.

They only have to choose 10. It like, I don't know. I would hope, at least, at least for me, it's made me slow down and made me stop, uh, buying so much stuff because I get to see how many clothes people are bringing every single month. I don't know if it's affected you Mads, but like, I don't really buy clothes for myself anymore.

Like, it's just, I don't really feel the need to, 'cause I'm like, oh, I always have an option with a swap next month.

[00:23:26] Mads Gullion: I've never been a huge, like buy new clothing person. I grew up a Goodwill kid before. It was cool. Um, but yeah, the, the sheer amount of stuff we see this past month was almost 700 pounds of clothing that came in.

Yep. And I, and I

[00:23:44] Michael Zarick: What's your attendance like?

[00:23:45] Mads Gullion: Uh, I think it was a couple hundred. This time we don't have like super accurate numbers because they're counting every person who comes into the center, but, um, it ebbs and

[00:23:55] Carly Valentine: flows.

[00:23:56] Mads Gullion: Yeah, it ebbs and flows. Um, a couple hundred, but I, I remarked aloud when we were cleaning up last month, I was like, are we making the problem worse?

Are we enabling people to continue consuming and, and buying new clothes? Because I think, I mean, we are seeing more she in than when we started. Yeah. There's, there's a lot of that. Um, and I'm glad that it's, you know, maybe getting a second chance, but I, I don't want it to be a thing that. Makes the problem worse.

And then I think Brittany from Craft Raft was like, you do not have to put that on your shoulders. That's not your job. And I was like, I work in climate. It's always on my shoulders.

[00:24:37] Carly Valentine: I mean, that's the thing too, like people from all different walks of life come in to the swap. And a lot of like other artists will come in and reuse the clothing for like art projects.

Um, I have a friend, she like sews little like stuffed animals and they're like weighted microwaveable pluses. And I bought one and she's like, oh, uh, that's actually made from clothes that I got from your swap.

[00:25:00] Mads Gullion: Nice.

[00:25:00] Carly Valentine: And that just, ugh, it warms my heart. 'cause now he's back to me. And he is in a new light.

He's a new baby. He was born from the swap.

[00:25:10] Mads Gullion: Yeah. And there are people like sunshine who like upcycle clothes. Like what? That purse that she made out of like a skirt or something.

[00:25:16] Carly Valentine: Yeah. Yeah. Pretty

[00:25:17] Mads Gullion: cool. So people do cool stuff. And I think, I don't know, at the end of the day, like. Waste. I don't know if you're thinking about carbon emissions like waste, which I, which I like the

[00:25:30] Carly Valentine: hand gesture,

[00:25:30] Mads Gullion: which I always am.

I mean, you know, buildings and transportation are much more of like, percentage wise, the problem, like 66% of our emissions in Indy come from buildings and waste is like half a percent or something. So it's not, that's not the thing that's gonna reverse climate change, but I do it because of the community and I think it, it makes people think about their consumption and the clothes they wear a little bit more.

Mm-hmm. And maybe it, you know, I don't know. They, they learn something, they meet new people. Like it's, it's more about the impact that building that community has than like the, the, the waste itself. The thing itself.

[00:26:15] Carly Valentine: Yeah. True.

[00:26:19] Michael Zarick: Any other thoughts? Oh, no,

[00:26:20] Carly Valentine: no. I think that was very well said. My hands are so I know

[00:26:24] Michael Zarick: it's carbon emission here.

Gimme your hand. Oh my God.

[00:26:28] Mads Gullion: I,

[00:26:29] Carly Valentine: I have terrible circulation here. We'll, we'll, we'll stay warm together.

[00:26:33] Michael Zarick: Um, this is a funny scene that we have here. If you're watching on YouTube, make

[00:26:37] Carly Valentine: it the thumbnail.

[00:26:38] Michael Zarick: Also, I love

[00:26:39] Carly Valentine: my hands.

[00:26:40] Michael Zarick: Uh, thumbnail is really funny too.

[00:26:43] Mads Gullion: Have you ever been to a clothing swap?

[00:26:45] Michael Zarick: No. None,

[00:26:47] Mads Gullion: man.

[00:26:48] Carly Valentine: They're pretty fun. You should

[00:26:49] Mads Gullion: come to a clothing swap.

[00:26:50] Carly Valentine: Yeah. The next one's March 21st here at GPAC. 12 to 2:30.

[00:26:55] Mads Gullion: Um, yeah, I think, I think you would

[00:26:57] Michael Zarick: like this. I think the only reason I haven't come is because of the distance.

[00:27:02] Mads Gullion: Yeah.

[00:27:03] Michael Zarick: Um, just because like, it's literally the, like I, I can say this now because we kind of announced it today and it'll definitely be announced by the time this episode comes out is Casey Springer and I who runs, we Walk Indy are planning a park to park Walk Nice.

Which is Marrot Park to Garfield Park.

[00:27:19] Carly Valentine: Whoa.

[00:27:19] Michael Zarick: It's about 13 miles.

[00:27:21] Carly Valentine: that's huge.

[00:27:22] Michael Zarick: And we're calling it the park to park 'cause it's it's reminiscent of the tip to tip walk in Manhattan, um, which is about the same distance. Which means I literally live on the opposite side of the city from, from Garfield Park.

That's my, that's my excuse. It's not an amazing excuse, but it's my excuse.

[00:27:38] Carly Valentine: Well, hopefully like more clothing swaps will start popping up and they'll, they'll be going closer to you.

[00:27:43] Michael Zarick: Well, I mean, north mass Boulder is, at least within my realm, there you go. Of the influence. Um, but yeah, I, I really love coming down here.

I think, um, you know, Parkside public house over there is an excellent restaurant and a lot of the businesses there, I'm at least pseudo friends with. Uh, but, uh, I, and I also just really enjoy this park also, so. Mm-hmm. Um, so I don't have a good excuse. Just minor inconvenience.

[00:28:09] Carly Valentine: Yeah. You can even post your own,

[00:28:13] Michael Zarick: they're pretty

[00:28:13] Mads Gullion: easy.

Just

[00:28:13] Michael Zarick: you're

[00:28:13] Mads Gullion: braver than

[00:28:14] Michael Zarick: me.

[00:28:15] Mads Gullion: No, just at your house. Invite some friends over. Tell everybody to bring clothes. Those are the most fun, I think. 'cause then. I don't know. You get to like hype your friend up and be like, no, you should totally take that. It looks better on you than it does me. Yes.

[00:28:27] Michael Zarick: That is what I was gonna ask.

I'm so glad you asked or said what you said. Um, you thank you for triggering the memory. What, like, how has your, like fashion, personal fashion, like developed over the course of like doing this? Have you, have you gone like through fluctuations or like tried a bunch of stuff you've never thought you'd wear or any of that type of stuff?

Also, trains are so loud on this hill.

[00:28:54] Carly Valentine: Yeah. Tracks go like right, right through here.

[00:28:57] Mads Gullion: Can you hear the train? Yeah.

[00:28:59] Michael Zarick: They might be able to hear it, but the matter,

[00:29:01] Carly Valentine: um. I mean, honestly, I've always liked experimenting with my style, so I can't really like, pinpoint anything exactly that I've tried since I started.

Well, I will say there was this really cool like matrix style, super floor length jacket. This leather jacket that I, I was like, I would never think to buy that or get that for myself.

[00:29:25] Michael Zarick: Wait, it was like a, like you were Trinity from the Matrix type. Yeah. You were like, just, and it was leather.

[00:29:30] Carly Valentine: Yes.

[00:29:30] Michael Zarick: That sounds sick.

[00:29:31] Carly Valentine: It was so cool. And like, I would've never thought to get that for myself. And I wore it and I ended up hating it. But I was like, you know what? It was, I got to try it. Um, I think I got these like polka dot pants one time. Would've never thought to wear those. Now they're my favorite pants. I didn't, I should've wore 'em Today.

[00:29:51] Mads Gullion: I think I've gotten a lot of like skirts and dresses from swaps. I don't know. I'm like,

[00:30:00] Michael Zarick: are you a skirt and dress person?

[00:30:01] Mads Gullion: No, I'm not.

[00:30:01] Michael Zarick: That's what I was kind

[00:30:02] Mads Gullion: of asking. So it's like I'm, I'm, I don't know. I'm trying to be more femme, like try out more femme clothes. Um, but I, I do usually leave with like a couple of button-ups.

Like I, yeah, I don't need more, but

[00:30:17] Michael Zarick: mm-hmm. I have beef with, oh wait, actually you guys are the perfect people to talk, talk to about this. Um, one first, first I have beef with like men's clothing options. Ooh. It's all

[00:30:29] Mads Gullion: say more.

[00:30:29] Michael Zarick: Yeah. It's all

[00:30:30] Mads Gullion: you have pockets. What more do you want?

[00:30:33] Michael Zarick: This is a constant conversation.

My wife has like a romper that has like really deep pockets and every time she wears it, she's like, fuck. Yeah. Um, but, uh,

[00:30:41] Mads Gullion: that's like the per when someone's like, oh, I like your dress. You, I mean, if it has pockets, you say

[00:30:45] Carly Valentine: it has pockets.

[00:30:48] Michael Zarick: Um, but like men's clothing is so restrictive to just like pants shirts.

Um, at least that's how I feel. Mm-hmm. Whereas women have dresses and skirts and rompers and body suits and all of these beautiful things, which is actually, you know, an extension of consumption in a way. Mm-hmm. Um, because women are the most exploited people on Earth.

[00:31:10] Mads Gullion: They make the pockets small so that you have to buy a purse.

[00:31:13] Michael Zarick: Exactly. Yeah. Um,

[00:31:15] Mads Gullion: that's,

[00:31:15] Michael Zarick: and like when, when advertising began, like in the, in the twenties, thirties, like housewives were the, like, premier targets of advertising. Yeah. That's like true history. Um, but I do have beef and for a long time I talked to my wife about like starting a men's clothing brand, and I don't think I would ever do that, but like, just out of like pure disdain for like men's clothing options.

Whoa. Um,

[00:31:38] Carly Valentine: like what do you mean? Like what would you, what would

[00:31:39] Michael Zarick: have I have no, uh, see this is the other issues. I never really thought that deeply about it. It was just purely like a, a side thought. I didn't know if you had any opinions about men's clothing or at least traditionally men's clothing.

[00:31:49] Carly Valentine: Yeah.

Um, so my partner Joseph, he's a man and

[00:31:54] Michael Zarick: he's a man.

[00:31:55] Carly Valentine: He, um, he attends like pretty much every swap and helps out too. And, um, he is always complaining just like about how he, I don't know, like, and even with men's clothing, I think that it is hard for a lot of men to find like the shirt and pants that like fit them how they want too, you know?

Mm-hmm. So it's like not only are you limited, like on options, but also like sizing is another limitation. Um, but, uh, I feel like, I mean, to speak for him, he has gotten a lot of really cool stuff, like from our swaps.

[00:32:29] Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:30] Carly Valentine: Like a lot of flannels button downs. Um, but I mean, I feel like I don't really. I wish that men would wear skirts more and dresses more.

[00:32:39] Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:40] Carly Valentine: And

[00:32:40] Mads Gullion: just wear what you want. Wear what feels good. Yeah. Forget the, forget the gender of it all.

[00:32:45] Michael Zarick: Yeah. Well, I just remember being in college, um, my freshman roommate, I had a pink shirt as a freshman in college in 2014.

Super woke 2014. Is that right? That's bold. Yeah. I just remember my roommate being like, that shirt's gay. And I was like, what does it mean for a piece of clothing to be gay? Like that didn't compute to me. Like clothing does not have like a sexual, uh,

[00:33:08] Carly Valentine: well, back when gay was an insult that people were saying too.

[00:33:11] Michael Zarick: That's true. It's

[00:33:12] Mads Gullion: crazy. I did get a shirt, a t-shirt from the last swap that says Queer on the front. So I think that that's a gay shirt.

[00:33:18] Carly Valentine: That

[00:33:18] Michael Zarick: is true. True. But not if you don't want it to be. Uh,

[00:33:23] Carly Valentine: it's a queer shirt.

[00:33:24] Michael Zarick: Okay. Next thought. This is, I'm so glad you're, I've been waiting to talk to people who are interested in, are you interested in clothing?

Just in general.

[00:33:31] Mads Gullion: If I could wear a uniform every day and not think about,

[00:33:35] Michael Zarick: so maybe you're not the right person to talk to about my, I'm interested in

[00:33:38] Carly Valentine: how,

[00:33:38] Michael Zarick: wait, are you interested in clothing?

[00:33:41] Carly Valentine: Oh,

[00:33:41] Michael Zarick: Carly.

[00:33:42] Carly Valentine: Um, yes, I would say, but like, I mean, I'm not like a big fashionista or anything.

[00:33:47] Michael Zarick: Okay. I'm gonna lay out a a, a brain thought I've had.

Okay. I'm interested in how you about it. A brain thought. Brain thought. It's one of those

[00:33:54] Carly Valentine: as opposed to a,

[00:33:55] Michael Zarick: I don't know.

Within the history actually, so all of my thoughts are based around car based developments. Mm-hmm.

[00:34:04] Mads Gullion: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:34:05] Michael Zarick: In my mind, people used to dress really well. Um, twenties, thirties, forties, dress. A lot of those, you know, a lot of that's like pretty nice. If you look at like traditional, um, like American wear of like you wear a sports jacket or like a nice tailored suit, that type of stuff.

Everybody had that type of, not everybody, but you know what I'm saying, uh, in traditional imagery. Whereas now I view people as leaning more towards like, uh, not sportswear, that's not the word. Like

[00:34:36] Mads Gullion: comfort,

[00:34:37] Michael Zarick: athleisure, that's the word. I'm not sure I know.

[00:34:38] Mads Gullion: Yes, yes.

[00:34:39] Michael Zarick: And my cook is that because people are so tied to their cars and we are so focused on getting from point A to point B and you don't have to interface with other people because of your, you're in your car, you're in your personal box.

Mm-hmm. You feel more, you are almost like closing yourself off to the. Uh, the outside world. And so you're less committed to like dressing what may be traditionally considered? Well,

[00:35:09] Mads Gullion: hmm. I feel like people from, I don't know, the early 19 hundreds would keel over seeing like how many people just like are out in sweats.

Like Yeah. No judgment on that. Yeah.

[00:35:18] Michael Zarick: No, I, it's not, it's,

[00:35:19] Mads Gullion: it's such a

[00:35:19] Michael Zarick: different world. It's less of a condemnation, more of just like an observation about like how the culture has shifted, shifted to be more focused on like, get to point A to point B and also be comfortable doing that. Mm-hmm. Rather than, I'm dressing well to talk to my neighbor when I go to the grocery store.

[00:35:35] Mads Gullion: Yeah. And also like owning so much more clothing and consuming so much more.

[00:35:40] Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:40] Mads Gullion: And it being of lower quality.

[00:35:42] Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:42] Mads Gullion: And not lasting as long and not, not keeping it as long. Mm-hmm. And not, I dunno, taking care of it the way that you would

[00:35:48] Michael Zarick: Yeah. Yeah. So like, no shame on like how you, if you like wearing Alere, I really don't care.

Like, that's not what I'm thinking about. It's more like. Why do people, why has this developed? But I think the consumption aspect also is true.

[00:36:01] Carly Valentine: I think clothing is just like made to disintegrate now, like made of acrylic and like polyester, like I think back then there's a lot more cotton involved, so it would last longer.

Um, that's another part of it, but I think people also just like prefer comfort over, like looking nice, like you said. And is that a bad thing? I don't think so.

[00:36:27] Michael Zarick: The world may never know. yeah, that's what I, I'm always like thinking like if, if in the world that like that I dream of, which is like more connected, more transit oriented, more pedestrian oriented.

Do people also, this is more of a question or a theoretical, it's like do people then begin dressing better also? Huh? I wonder.

[00:36:46] Carly Valentine: Yeah.

[00:36:46] Mads Gullion: I.

I don't know.

[00:36:49] Michael Zarick: Or they wear more tennis shoes because they gotta walk more,

[00:36:51] Mads Gullion: right? Yes. Like I wear, yeah, I wear comfortable shoes when I ride the bus.

[00:36:55] Michael Zarick: I mean, I walked, I'm wearing leather shoes, I walked here from the circle.

[00:36:59] Carly Valentine: I guess I would like to think that like, uh, people would, I don't know, I think people, I don't think people would like necessarily like dress better, but like, like you said, yeah, like wear more tennis shoes.

I think people are dressing however they want now, like mm-hmm. I think back then, like trends were a lot more cookie cutter, you know, like, uh, everyone shops at the same store and they wear the same like general item of things. But now, like with online shopping, like people can explore their own styles and I mean, yeah, a lot of people are gravitating towards athleisure, but also I think a lot of people are like trying alternative fashion more so I don't think, uh, I.

I don't think fashion is necessarily dead. Is that what you're saying? Or like

[00:37:40] Michael Zarick: No, I think fashion is a, you know, a, an extension of like, in a lot of ways, especially because we live under like a, such a consumption focused, a lot of fashion is purely based on like what they want you to buy. That's why they, yeah.

There's like seasonal trends in that way. Uh, I am interested in Mads. If you could wear a uniform, what uniform you would wear?

[00:38:01] Mads Gullion: Um, a comfy pair of Carharts and like

[00:38:06] Michael Zarick: overalls?

[00:38:07] Mads Gullion: No, I mean, sure. Overalls maybe sometimes, but

[00:38:09] Michael Zarick: dude, I used to, I worked, I lived in Moab, Utah for six months doing construction and overalls are so comfortable.

Huge fan of those overalls. They do make it hard to go poop though.

[00:38:22] Mads Gullion: Okay. Um, yeah, I, I used to have jobs where I like predominantly worked in the field and so I wore. Like work wear and just like a grimy t-shirt.

[00:38:36] Carly Valentine: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:36] Mads Gullion: And I never had to think in the morning like, what am I gonna wear to work today? And now I have an email job, um, where I sit at a desk and have to, it's not like a, I couldn't work somewhere where I have to wear, like business professional, but it, you know, I have to put some thought in the morning into what I'm gonna wear.

And it just like, takes up time and brain

[00:38:57] Michael Zarick: space. I, I had a friend when I worked at summer camp who wore scrubs every day. Just like, she bought like 10 different colors of scrubs, theirs, and just wear, no, just like, she was like, they're comfortable and they're like, easy to wear and like, wash. I just wear scrubs.

Okay. Maybe that could be here actually. I respect that. amazing. Let's move on. Sorry, I just, I'm imagining you walking into your office every day wearing like different color scrubs every day. I think it's really funny, honestly, I can see the cogs turning.

[00:39:28] Mads Gullion: They're comfortable for sure.

[00:39:30] Michael Zarick: There's, that was a, no, that was a no, if I've ever heard

[00:39:33] Mads Gullion: one.

Well, there's just like a, I'm Filipino and there's like a crazy percentage of nurses in the US or Filipino.

[00:39:41] Michael Zarick: Okay. I accept.

[00:39:42] Mads Gullion: And so I'm just like, I don't really wanna wear scrubs.

[00:39:45] Michael Zarick: Um, let's move on to what I call the canned questions. Third, Space Indy Woo is sponsored by city rising.org. My good friend Mark Latta has decided to sponsor the podcast, nice city rising.org, city rising.org.

City Rising is a social impact studio that leads and supports innovative projects that strengthen, celebrate and repair people and places. So if you're a people or you're the leader of a place and you're interested in improving your built or lived environment, reach out to me or reach out to Mark Latta cityrising.org and we'll hook you up.

Mark has sponsored a question, which is what is, sorry. It's, it's funny to me too. Um, what is a Third Space to you?

[00:40:29] Carly Valentine: Um, I would say a Third Space to me is, I mean, pretty on the nose with how you would describe it with like, um, you know, it's not your home, it's not work. It is a place where you go to relax, unwind, or have fun with friends. Um, and I think a perfect world is a place where you don't have to spend money either.

it's like a free resource and um, it's a place that I wanna be,

[00:41:04] Mads Gullion: um, can I give an specific example?

I think a lot about college and how, I don't know. There's so much nostalgia, thinking about like your, your time in college and so much of that is because you lived in a walkable place where you could get around and see your friends without having to have a car.

And there were free activities to do and like your whole world was just like, I don't know, accessible and,

[00:41:32] Michael Zarick: oh, micro ecosystem,

[00:41:33] Mads Gullion: right?

[00:41:34] Michael Zarick: Where'd you go?

[00:41:35] Mads Gullion: Earlham

[00:41:36] Michael Zarick: Wait, in St. Louis? No,

[00:41:38] Mads Gullion: no,

[00:41:38] Michael Zarick: no. That's here in Indiana.

[00:41:40] Mads Gullion: It's in Richmond,

[00:41:41] Michael Zarick: Indiana.

[00:41:42] Mads Gullion: Yeah.

[00:41:43] Michael Zarick: I have a friend who went there. How old are you?

[00:41:45] Mads Gullion: 27.

[00:41:47] Michael Zarick: Do you know McGee?

Catlett?

[00:41:49] Mads Gullion: I do remember McGee.

[00:41:51] Michael Zarick: That's crazy.

[00:41:52] Mads Gullion: I feel like, oh, was me. Was McGee involved with Hash?

[00:41:59] Michael Zarick: I have no clue. McGee studied. Ornithology.

[00:42:02] Mads Gullion: Yes. Yes. Shout out to Wendy Tory. I never really had her as a professor, but Ornithology one of my biggest regrets. Not taking, not

[00:42:13] Michael Zarick: taking Ornithology,

[00:42:14] Mads Gullion: ornithology, ornithology and GIS

[00:42:18] Michael Zarick: If you don't know what Ornithology is, that's the study of birds

[00:42:20] Mads Gullion: burbs.

Oh, I

[00:42:22] Michael Zarick: see. I didn't know. See, that's, I, I felt the need to define it because it's like, thank you. There's so many ologies. Um, McGee loves birds. I don't know that McGee is still doing bird stuff, but, um, they are a teacher at a school in Louisville. Shout to McGee.

[00:42:38] Mads Gullion: Shout out to Mcgee.

[00:42:39] Michael Zarick: I'll send them this episode.

[00:42:41] Mads Gullion: Um, what was I saying? Oh, college. My favorite Thirdspaceindy.com College was this coffee co-op. It was called Rose City. It was in like a room off the maintenance building that they let students use. And it was like entirely student run. And you volunteered for like two hour shifts with a friend and you got a free drink out of it and coffee was like, I don't know, a couple bucks for a latte and

[00:43:10] Michael Zarick: rest in peace.

Couple dollar lattes.

[00:43:12] Mads Gullion: Well, even then it was, that was very low, like compared to like a coffee shop in town.

[00:43:17] Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:17] Mads Gullion: Just 'cause there were, there were no, like, you weren't, we weren't paying rent for the space or paying people to make the coffee and it was full of old couches who had seen, who knows how many decades of students and, but you could also go in and not buy a coffee and just study or take a nap, which I, I did a lot of, um, or host a club meeting or like anything.

Um, so that was, that was one of my favorite third spaces. It doesn't exist anymore.

[00:43:49] Michael Zarick: Oh wait, that's a great, uh, preview into the next question, which I'm glad you already answered. Um, also. Shout out to IU Bloomington. You've got a lot of issues. But the worst of all is that the IU Student Union, they replaced all the old comfortable couches with the worst furniture of all time.

[00:44:07] Mads Gullion: Dang. Is that worse than giving fascist Pam Whitten a hundred thousand dollars raise?

[00:44:11] Michael Zarick: Are you allowed to say that?

[00:44:12] Mads Gullion: I mean, I don't, I don't work for Bloomington.

[00:44:13] Michael Zarick: Okay. Yeah. Uh, no. But also to me, maybe I

[00:44:20] Mads Gullion: think weigh in in the comments,

[00:44:23] Michael Zarick: Pam Whitten please resign. I can say that. Um, oh, sorry. I was like, what was I talking about?

Um, yeah, I Bloomington figure your shit out. Anyways, the next question, which is an extension, which you already answered, which is, what is a Third Space that existed previously for you that no longer does? Hmm. And if you have an alternate answer, that would also be love.

[00:44:46] Mads Gullion: I mean, it's that one and like even if I.

Even if it still existed, it wouldn't really exist to me anymore because I don't, I'm not in school. I don't live there. Um, but it's sad that it doesn't exist for future generations and that, I don't know, college students won't know the beauty of Rose City.

[00:45:05] Michael Zarick: I love that.

[00:45:06] Carly Valentine: Like it doesn't exist anymore. Like, or,

[00:45:11] Michael Zarick: uh, doesn't exist.

I think, uh, Mads phrased this very well, which is that it doesn't really matter whether it exists or not. It's a more of a personal way of phrasing it.

[00:45:21] Carly Valentine: Oh, okay. Like

[00:45:22] Michael Zarick: it could still be there.

[00:45:24] Carly Valentine: Oh, okay. But just like, okay. Like I don't visit it anymore.

[00:45:27] Mads Gullion: Yeah.

[00:45:27] Carly Valentine: Okay. Um hmm.

I can only think of ones that exist for me now. Um,

[00:45:37] Mads Gullion: what are your third spaces now?

[00:45:39] Carly Valentine: I would consider my neighborhood a Third Space for me, which I know is like my house, but also like I really enjoy like walking. I live in Woodruff. I like rent there and I really enjoy just like walking around the neighborhood and even like going to the dollar store and just like walking around there or you know, there's a lot of, I mean, I don't know, is the general outdoors a Third Space?

Sometimes Like, like a neighborhood? Does that count?

[00:46:08] Michael Zarick: The reason I say space instead of place. Okay. Place is the proper term.

[00:46:11] Carly Valentine: Yeah.

[00:46:12] Michael Zarick: Uh, because I believe that space is amorphous and malleable. Ah, rather than places which are. Distinct.

[00:46:19] Carly Valentine: Yeah.

[00:46:19] Michael Zarick: Um, and I think just saying I like outside is perfectly acceptable, especially when you're, you're actually like living within some certain bounds.

Uhhuh, but also like, I don't think it even matters that far.

[00:46:30] Carly Valentine: Yeah.

[00:46:31] Michael Zarick: Um, but I never considered that like, Woodruff place is absolutely like a, a, a space

[00:46:35] Carly Valentine: It is. Okay. Good. I mean, that would be my answer for a place that exists now that I still like to go to. I guess a third place that I used to go to as a kid a lot, um, was the library.

I li I grew up in Evansville, Indiana. And, um,

[00:46:50] Mads Gullion: shout out Evansville.

[00:46:51] Carly Valentine: Yeah. I mean, you know, they're, they're trying, you know, they're trying to get better.

[00:46:56] Mads Gullion: Did you know Evansville has the, uh, they have an urban old growth forest. It's like one of the only ones in the US I

[00:47:05] Michael Zarick: think I was gonna say, those don't exist.

[00:47:06] Mads Gullion: Yeah,

[00:47:08] Michael Zarick: regular old growth forest, let alone urban ones.

[00:47:10] Mads Gullion: Yeah, check it out. It's nice.

[00:47:12] Carly Valentine: Yeah. The library there, it was like, it's like one of those libraries that's like built into a hill. So I just remember how beautiful the outside of the building is, and I can still like remember like going inside of it and like the smell of it and just like, I don't know, it was just such a warm, ambient place and I have yet to go to a library that I feel that level of comfort, comfort towards.

Like, no offense to the libraries in Indianapolis. They're really chill and cool and I, I like enjoy all of them, but maybe it's the nostalgia factor too. That one just, it hit different.

[00:47:45] Michael Zarick: There's a library in Louisville, Kentucky, which is where I'm from. Uh Oh, cool. The St.

Matthew's library that has like a specific smell. Um, yeah, it's probably just book smell, but I don't. I think books smell the same as when I was a kid for some reason.

[00:48:00] Carly Valentine: That's a good,

[00:48:01] Michael Zarick: so like, I have like this really distinct smell in my mind of like what that library smells like.

[00:48:06] Carly Valentine: So, you

[00:48:06] Michael Zarick: know, its really, you know,

[00:48:07] Carly Valentine: it too,

[00:48:07] Michael Zarick: it's really nostalgic.

Yeah. No, I know what you mean. Uhhuh and libraries definitely don't feel the same. And I think there is a, you used the word whimsy earlier. I think there's a level of whimsy associated with being a child and being surrounded by books in a library. Uhhuh, it's different than a bookstore. Um, it kind of hits differently, but I do think there's like a, a loss of getting older and like, maybe even viewing books differently also.

[00:48:30] Carly Valentine: Yeah. Do you think like a library is like one of the first thirds spaces that people are introduced to, like, as children?

[00:48:37] Michael Zarick: Ooh. Introduced

[00:48:37] Carly Valentine: to if you don't go to church. Yeah. Yeah. True.

[00:48:40] Michael Zarick: Yeah. Somebody, um, asked me the question, uh, on the podcast I was on earlier this week. He, he asked me if coffee shops were the first, Third Space and I said, absolutely not.

But I think your phrasing, Of like the first ones, like children are introduced to is like, really, um, intriguing. Yeah. Like a lot of times it'd be like childcare. Yeah, maybe, but, um, definitely like libraries are up there.

[00:49:03] Carly Valentine: Even childcare. I, well, I don't know. Now I'm just thinking about third spaces for children, but like, wouldn't that be considered like school or work for a child?

Childcare, having to go to babysit? I

[00:49:14] Michael Zarick: personally believe

[00:49:15] Carly Valentine: kid job

[00:49:15] Michael Zarick: people, people don't, people disagree with me on this. And by people I just mean one person so far. But, um, I personally think school is a Third Space for children.

[00:49:25] Mads Gullion: Oh.

[00:49:25] Michael Zarick: Even though it's work. But like there, there's so much social, uh, so many social aspects to school itself that I think like it is impossible to disregard that.

[00:49:36] Mads Gullion: That's true. Is private school a Third Space

[00:49:39] Michael Zarick: now? You're just, you're just trying to start arguments?

[00:49:42] Mads Gullion: Hey, that's what podcasts are for. Um,

[00:49:46] Michael Zarick: every episode I ask a question from the previous guest. My previous guest was, I literally talked to her this morning. Hailey McGinley, uh, the owner of Native Bread. Um, and she asked the question, what is something that held you back last year that you're gonna not let you hold you back? Wait, how did not let you, let hold you back this year?

[00:50:10] Carly Valentine: Hmm. That's a great question. It is the year of the fire horse.

[00:50:15] Mads Gullion: Hmm. I've heard that.

[00:50:17] Carly Valentine: Yeah.

[00:50:17] Michael Zarick: You've heard that.

[00:50:20] Mads Gullion: I'm a tiger, so I don't know. Are you,

[00:50:22] Carly Valentine: are you I'm a rabbit. That makes sense for the two of us.

[00:50:26] Michael Zarick: I'm a pig. Whoa. I don't know what element of pig.

[00:50:29] Mads Gullion: I don't know what element.

[00:50:31] Carly Valentine: Um, something that held me back last year. That I won't let this year. Uh,

[00:50:36] Mads Gullion: do you wanna hear my take on you?

Oh, yes.

I mean, I think you're leaning into creativity this year. I think you're not letting, I don't know, um, the res the restrictions of a job. Like, I don't know, like in the past you've, you've had to use like Swap Sesh stuff as your outlet for your creativity.

[00:50:56] Carly Valentine: Mm-hmm.

[00:50:57] Mads Gullion: And I think this is your year for letting your creativity lead.

[00:51:00] Carly Valentine: Dude, that's beautiful. Thank you for noticing that. 'cause I did quit my job. Go. Yeah. And I think I might steal that answer, like, not only am I trying to like, uh, lead with creativity, but just like lead as a more like authentic version of myself.

Um, I think I always try to perform, uh, in a certain like way that fits a box that I'm trying to break out of. So I don't know if that's really vague or. Uh, too vague metaphorical maybe, but is that a good answer? No, I, it's fine. Philosophical. Yeah. Philosophical. Thank you. Yeah.

[00:51:41] Mads Gullion: I'm trying to do less this year.

[00:51:43] Michael Zarick: Hmm. What held you back about doing more?

[00:51:45] Mads Gullion: I have so many interests and passions. I, I do too many crafts. I don't need more hobbies. Um, but I like, I like helping run Swap Sesh and I like volunteering. Um, I volunteered at, um, people for Urban Progress pretty regularly last year. Sorry, Jason. I have not reached out.

Um, I, I like to be outside. I like, I don't know. There's so many, so what do you,

[00:52:23] Michael Zarick: whatcha cutting out?

[00:52:24] Mads Gullion: There's, there's so many things I. I just like need to learn to say no sometimes.

[00:52:29] Michael Zarick: Mm. Same.

[00:52:30] Mads Gullion: Um, too, I, have you ever heard of Spoon Theory?

[00:52:36] Michael Zarick: No. I've heard of Horseshoe Theory, but we won't get into that.

[00:52:39] Mads Gullion: I dunno what that is.

I'm disabled and Spoon Theory is this idea that, um, people who live with chronic illness or chronic pain or disability have a limited number of spoons every day. And spoons is like a metaphor for energy.

[00:52:53] Carly Valentine: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:54] Mads Gullion: And it's not that, um, able-bodied people have unlimited spoons, but you can, you can pretty typically, like you get a good night of sleep, you eat right, whatever you can.

You can go to work and hang out with friends and do your chores and whatever. And you're not like super thinking about like, do I have enough spoons to do this thing? Um, but people with chronic illness and chronic pain, um. I might wake up and only have two spoons and it's like I have to figure out how to get to work and do my job and like feed myself.

Um, and you can go into spoon debt and all this stuff. So like, I like doing all the things and I also have to take care of myself.

[00:53:37] Michael Zarick: Very succinct. Yeah, that's a good answer.

[00:53:40] Carly Valentine: I kind of feel that honestly too.

[00:53:43] Michael Zarick: Um, the last time, just on the topic of like having too many interests, the last time I cried, which it does not happen often, I'm not a very, I love

[00:53:53] Mads Gullion: crying.

[00:53:53] Michael Zarick: I'm not a very emotional person. I've

[00:53:54] Mads Gullion: been crying.

[00:53:55] Michael Zarick: The last time I cried was in Arkansas. I had just talked to my therapist about thinking I had a DHD, went to get tested, had a terrible experience getting tested and then had a like total mental breakdown about thinking I had ADHD and then also like freaking out about.

Having too many interests and not enough lifetime to experience those things. It was like a total, and I, I'm, that's

[00:54:19] Carly Valentine: existential.

[00:54:20] Michael Zarick: I'm over it now. Uh, but that was like, I think a very helpful cry.

[00:54:25] Carly Valentine: Yeah.

[00:54:25] Michael Zarick: Yeah. Mm-hmm. But, uh, absolutely. Yeah. But I don't cry very often.

[00:54:28] Mads Gullion: So many books. So little time. I think about that a lot.

Yeah. There's so many things I wanna read.

[00:54:31] Michael Zarick: Oh my God. You've heard a lot of, I wish I could, I, my wife hates that I say this, but I wish I could put my hand on the book and like read it. Like,

[00:54:38] Mads Gullion: whoa. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Just absorb

[00:54:39] Michael Zarick: it. Be a

[00:54:40] Mads Gullion: cool

[00:54:40] Carly Valentine: superpower.

[00:54:41] Michael Zarick: Literally. I, I like don't, I don't think I enjoy the process of reading, but I enjoy the knowledge, if that makes sense.

So I'm like,

[00:54:48] Mads Gullion: I think I'm the opposite really. I love reading and I retain nothing true. Like, oh, you read, you read this many books last month, like, what was your favorite? And I'm like, let me look at my story graph and get back to you. I like it. It doesn't stick.

[00:55:02] Carly Valentine: Yeah.

[00:55:02] Michael Zarick: That's what I probably way more healthy than whatever I'm doing.

Um, is there anything else that you guys would like to talk about before we wrap up? Um,

[00:55:10] Carly Valentine: no. I think this has been great. Thank you so much for having us.

[00:55:13] Michael Zarick: Yeah.

[00:55:14] Carly Valentine: Yeah.

[00:55:15] Michael Zarick: One last question and you get two 'cause there's two of you, unless you agree on a single, what question would you like to ask the next Third Space Indy guest.

Oh, that was

[00:55:25] Carly Valentine: impressive.

[00:55:26] Michael Zarick: And you can think for a second. It's getting dark though.

[00:55:30] Carly Valentine: Hmm

Should we make it like clothing related? Because we're like a clothing swap?

[00:55:35] Michael Zarick: It can be about whatever you like.

[00:55:37] Carly Valentine: I think I wanna make it clothing related because we're about a clothing spot. Um, I would say what? Hmm? What is your favorite trusty go-to clothing item?

[00:55:51] Mads Gullion: Oh, wait, no, no, no. Actually I wanna change it.

[00:55:53] Carly Valentine: If you were a cartoon character, what outfit would you choose to wear every single day?

[00:56:00] Michael Zarick: Because cartoon characters only have a single outfit most of the time.

[00:56:03] Carly Valentine: Yes.

[00:56:04] Mads Gullion: A uniform

[00:56:04] Carly Valentine: if you'll uniform, uniform, uniform.

[00:56:08] Mads Gullion: Well, wait, what was the question that the, the person from earlier asked. I just need, I need inspiration.

[00:56:13] Carly Valentine: Um, their question was actually in,

[00:56:15] Michael Zarick: they didn't actually come up with a themselves. It was actually from an event we were both at last night, um, which was what was holding you back last year that you don't wanna hold you back this year. It's a little sort of like introspective.

Yeah, that's, but you can ask whatever you want. I love that cartoon character. That's good.

[00:56:30] Carly Valentine: Yeah. I wanted to ask him a little more lighthearted than that. What do you love about Indy? Oh,

[00:56:37] Mads Gullion: easy. And I know the person will like that question

[00:56:40] Carly Valentine: and I'll have an answer. Wait, do we not know who the person is?

[00:56:41] Michael Zarick: I can't tell you.

[00:56:42] Carly Valentine: Oh, okay.

[00:56:43] Michael Zarick: Uh, I don't say it on this for a reason, but, oh, wait, we got it.

[00:56:47] Carly Valentine: Oh,

[00:56:47] Michael Zarick: oh. One, one last second. Uh. Thank you guys for coming on. Uh, I really enjoyed our conversation. It's dark and cold now. Cold, so we should wrap it up. Uh, are your hands still like falling off your hand on your body?

[00:57:00] Carly Valentine: Yeah.

[00:57:01] Michael Zarick: Can you let the people know and you can do it for your individual selves as well, where the people can find you if you wanna be found.

[00:57:09] Carly Valentine: Oh, well, you can find us here at Garfield Park Arts Center next month, March 21st, 12 to two 30. Or you can find me at 1656 Club. I've been going there pretty frequently.

[00:57:20] Mads Gullion: You can also find us in the, the digital world. Oh yeah, that too. At Swap Sesh on Instagram. Um, my personal, like for my art is so darn radical.

SEW Darn radical. Hmm.

[00:57:40] Carly Valentine: Um, yeah, I didn't even process that it was digital.

[00:57:43] Mads Gullion: No,

[00:57:43] Carly Valentine: people

[00:57:43] Mads Gullion: need to like,

[00:57:44] Carly Valentine: physically

[00:57:45] Mads Gullion: find us too.

[00:57:45] Carly Valentine: Yeah, it's true. Um, I also made a TikTok, so you can follow us on TikTok now. Swap Sesh. Indy.

[00:57:51] Mads Gullion: This is news to me.

[00:57:52] Carly Valentine: I know I didn't tell anyone, but, um, you can also find me, my usernames, CarVal on Instagram.

That's, it's

[00:58:01] Michael Zarick: like carnival without the I.

[00:58:02] Carly Valentine: Yes, exactly. It's my initials too. And yeah, that's basically the only social media I use personally.

[00:58:10] Michael Zarick: Dope.

[00:58:11] Carly Valentine: Yeah.

[00:58:11] Mads Gullion: Connect with me on LinkedIn.

[00:58:13] Carly Valentine: No, please

[00:58:13] Mads Gullion: don't.

[00:58:14] Michael Zarick: Are you being serious?

[00:58:15] Mads Gullion: I don't know. I mean,

[00:58:16] Michael Zarick: are you a LinkedIn user? Are you posting about No, I don increasing shareholder value.

[00:58:20] Mads Gullion: No, I don't post, but I, I like to browse.

[00:58:24] Michael Zarick: We, we connect on LinkedIn.

[00:58:25] Carly Valentine: People are strange

[00:58:27] Mads Gullion: on there.

[00:58:27] Michael Zarick: Uh, I have been like thinking about like, if I lost my job again, which is how I started this podcast, is after losing my job, it's like I should be posting about how, how I perceive my podcast as successful on LinkedIn.

So people think I'm worth something.

[00:58:41] Mads Gullion: Oh yeah. You have to, you have to do the weird format of, it's like one sentence and then they hate enter a bunch of times.

[00:58:46] Michael Zarick: Yes. Um,

[00:58:48] Mads Gullion: I lost my job last year.

[00:58:50] Michael Zarick: Yeah.

[00:58:50] Mads Gullion: Here's why I think I'm successful.

[00:58:53] Michael Zarick: Yeah, exactly. Straight up. Uh, hey, thank you so much for watching or listening to this episode of Third Space Indy.

You can find me at Third Space Indy on Instagram or by going to Third Space Indy dot com, where sometimes I write a blog I'm behind, but I will catch up. I promise.

[00:59:10] Mads Gullion: I believe in you.

[00:59:11] Michael Zarick: Truly. Thank you, GPAC. For hosting us Garfield Park Art Center, even though we are sitting outside in the cold. Um, thank you.

[00:59:18] Mads Gullion: The outside is a Third Space.

[00:59:20] Michael Zarick: The outside is a Third Space. Um, thank you. City rising.org for sponsoring podcast. And thank you as always to the local artist Jennasen, for allowing me to use your song Scared Rabbit as the intro music. Thank you once again for watching. I'll see you in the next one. Goodbye.

[00:59:35] Mads Gullion: Bye bye.

[00:59:37] Michael Zarick: Peace.