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Intro

I find that I get a decent amount of compliments on my podcast. Something along the lines of I love your work, and I think you should keep going. The most difficult thing for me is always getting over this constant internal pressure of never feeling good enough. There are very few of my own podcasts that I think are truly good. There’s always an issue on the production side or a question I asked in not the way I wanted, or I didn’t pull the information out of the person in the way I wanted.

But what I can say confidently is that every podcast is better than the one before it. I am always working towards what is good and what may eventually be great. The listeners seem to enjoy it, and that is what is important.

What NEVER fails me in my episodes, though, is my guest. They are all incredible in their own right. Their personal talents and expertise inspire me each and every time. This week, I hosted someone who reached out to me through TikTok. Someone who felt inspired by something a guest said in a clip. This makes me think about how each of my listeners is a podcast guest in waiting.

Karly was a listener (and likely will remain so), but she has a story and important information to share with the world. I have been blessed to call Karly a friend, and I am thankful to have a platform, no matter how small, to share her area of study with the world. I hope you enjoy today’s episode as always. Maybe you’ll learn something as I did!

Can be found here:

• Links to listen

• Links of references from the show

• Production learnings

• Story Time

• Episode Summary

• Episode Transcript

Third Space Indy is supported by City Rising

Put your email in here, and I’ll send you this blog every week with the episode release.

Important links and mentions

• Karly Keiper

  • TikTok

• ACCESS Ability

• Crip Camp Love story

• Joseph Califano (Bad Guy)

• Brad Lomax

• Judy Heumann

• Alice Wong

• Imani Barbarin - Crutches and Spice

• Center for Independent Living

• Bosma

• Ellenberger Park

• Section 504 Sit-in

• Rolling Warrior

Production learnings from the episode

We recorded this episode at Gold Leaf on 46th in Indy (#notanad but that place rocks), and there was some lovely jazz playing nearly the entire time we were talking. I don’t think it is really intrusive, but I do think it affected the audio quality of the speakers in this case. So it’s an interesting trade-off. We could have recorded in a different spot, but it was comfortable in the corner, and it happened to be under the speaker in this case, which was fairly loud.

I dream of the day I find the perfect balance of audio with vocals and background sound; outside recordings are the best at this, in my opinion. In a real professional recording environment, obviously, it’s entirely controlled with near-zero background sound and a lovely music track that works well with the conversation being put in. My personal go-to example of this is 99 Percent Invisible; their music work is impeccable.

Other than that, this week’s conversation was wonderful, and I am really happy to have done it.

On Content Fatigue

I enjoy making this podcast. I enjoy the process of sitting down with someone I like or admire to talk about what and who they are or the effect they have on their environment. I enjoy taking that conversation and making sure it sounds good to share. I enjoy posting on Instagram and often making a clip or two of the conversation. Each of these things, in part, is very easy and enjoyable to do. But all of them together, constantly as a weekly barrage, is quite exhausting.

I have no plans to stop. I have no plans to change the way I do things. I have a certain ego about my work. It’s a slow march of progress towards a world I want to see. If I take a moment of pause, then so too does that march. And I am only on this Earth for so long, and the Earth itself has only so long to wait for the march to assist it.

That is a lot of weight to bear, though. I will be thinking of ways to either share this burden or hand it off on occasion going forward. Who wants to hear from me always, anyway? That is something quite interesting to think about.

And to tie this in to this week’s podcast. I am blessed to even be able to do this. I am thankful for the past experiences and the personal ability to manage, run, and continue doing this podcast without many things preventing me from doing so or many hurdles stopping me from doing it efficiently and effectively.

But there are people out there who DO have the hindrances of various disabilities. And many of those people have found it within themselves to do what I do just as regularly and with just as much, if not more, quality. That is powerful and impressive in its own way. For however tired I feel from a little over half a year of podcasting, it pales in comparison to what someone else may be going through, and it is also partially because of that reason that I have to keep pushing forward in this and all things.

Thanks for reading and listening as always - Michael Z

Third Space Indy is supported by City Rising

Episode Summary

Exploring Disability Advocacy with Karly Keiper

In this episode of Third Space Indy, host Michael Zarick interviews Karly Keiper, Professor of Disability Advocacy at Butler University. They discuss the concept of Third Places as outlined by Ray Oldenburg and explore Karly’s work in disability advocacy. The conversation delves into the importance of recognizing and advocating for people with disabilities, even those with invisible or less apparent disabilities such as anxiety or depression. Karly shares insights on teaching students about the history and ongoing fight for disability rights, including significant events like the Section 504 sit-in. The episode highlights everyday actions listeners can take to support accessibility and references Karly’s personal journey in embracing her own disabilities. This thoughtful discussion emphasizes the need for community, accessibility, and breaking down stigmas associated with disabilities.

00:00 Introduction to Third Space Indy

00:43 Meet Karly Keiper: Disability Advocacy at Butler University

02:05 The Importance of Disability Advocacy

04:12 Teaching Disability History: The Fight for ADA

04:38 The 504 Sit-In: A Historic Protest

10:19 Personal Stories and Classroom Experiences

15:39 Understanding Invisible Disabilities

36:08 The Impact of Trauma and Disability

38:49 Challenges of Navigating the World with Disabilities

39:28 The Importance of Accessibility in Daily Life

40:32 Reed Davenport's Documentaries on Disability

41:36 Campus Accessibility Issues

44:14 The Concept of Third Spaces

45:22 Personal Stories and Reflections on Accessibility

49:01 Community and Social Impact

01:01:54 Practical Tips for Supporting Accessibility

01:11:02 Final Thoughts and Outro

Episode Transcript

Karly Keiper
===

[00:00:15] Michael Zarick: Hello. My name is Michael Zarick, and this is Third Space Indy. In 1989, a man named Ray Oldenberg wrote a book called The Great Good Place.

in this book, he outlined a place that existed outside of your home and outside of your work, and he coined it the third place. And this is a place where you can go exist and just be and build community. And so I've made it my goal to find people all over Indianapolis who are fostering these types of spaces.

Uh, and today I am talking to one of those people Their name is Karly Keiper. And Karly is a. Professor of Disability Advocacy at Butler University Right over in Butler Talkington in Indianapolis. Despite being an eastsider. Yeah. Like every other guest of this podcast, right?

[00:01:02] Karly Keiper: Yeah. It's a secret, great place.

[00:01:04] Michael Zarick: Yeah. Um, so Hello Karly. How you doing?

[00:01:08] Karly Keiper: Hello. Great. How about you?

[00:01:09] Michael Zarick: I'm doing good. I said I would mention this, but I did get up at 4:30 AM Yeah. And I am just like, I'm delirious.

[00:01:18] Karly Keiper: Absolutely. But a good husband.

[00:01:21] Michael Zarick: I am a good husband, yes. Most days.

[00:01:23] Karly Keiper: Taking your wife to the airport at four in the morning, that makes you a good husband.

[00:01:26] Michael Zarick: Thank you. Thank you. Um, so you reached out to me a couple of months ago because you saw a clip of mine on TikTok. I don't recall. I think it was the one about, um. Safe or like making Pedestrianized Streets was the one you spoke, do you remember which one? Well, it was, it was with the

[00:01:43] Karly Keiper: older gentleman and he was talking about how he goes to the same place every day.

Oh, okay. And yeah, so, um, it was just such a like lovely, relatable neighborhood story and that got me hooked on the podcast.

[00:01:59] Michael Zarick: So we have another pod. I imagine this will become more and more common as we go forward, but another podcast fan, but mm-hmm. I think importantly what you reached out to me about was because of your work at Butler and your work just as an individual and your existence, which we'll get into a little bit later.

You said that. I think disability advocacy is so important to just our existence as people who exist in space, as a community, as a people of just like, I don't know. Yeah. Advocating for people with disabilities is, is advocating for yourself in many ways.

[00:02:35] Karly Keiper: Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Yeah. The, um, and I think too, part of what drives my work is that so many people feel uncomfortable or unwilling to talk about disability, even though, like, we're close to 28% of the population has identified as being disabled.

Mm-hmm.

And so like a quarter of our neighbors are disabled, you know, and, and we're just, we're just commingling and existing together without realizing what that means, um, and the impact of that identity. Yeah. And so, yeah, when I saw your podcast and about community. I think especially post COVID, it was like, oh my gosh, we have to talk about this.

[00:03:15] Michael Zarick: And then we sat down at Thieves, my go-to coffee shop, uh, and just we talked for like, I felt like two hours. I feel like we had a good,

[00:03:23] Karly Keiper: I think we, yes, a good

[00:03:24] Michael Zarick: Kiki, uh, initially, and then I attended one of your classes, which I regrettably have been unable to attend another one, but that's okay. I plan to at least hopefully next semester and maybe next

[00:03:34] Karly Keiper: it gets juicy next semester, so

[00:03:35] Michael Zarick: maybe next week.

Um, yeah. But you are here sort of introducing, uh, what are now young people to me, but maybe not, they don't perceive themselves.

[00:03:44] Karly Keiper: No. Um,

[00:03:47] Michael Zarick: to just this very entry level of like, what is a disability? What does it mean to advocate for people with disabilities? What is it, what is the history of this? All of those that, that sort of series of things.

Yeah. And it gets really interesting. Can you tell me a little bit. About, why don't we talk about your work at Butler and then sort of expound upon it, uh, in terms of like people who are listening afterwards.

[00:04:09] Karly Keiper: Absolutely. That will be so easy. Yeah. So thank you. Thank you for making this easy. Um, so I teach a first year seminar course called, um, the Fight for ADA Past, Present and Beyond.

And as you mentioned, like a majority of the people that come into the class, um, I will ask them, have you ever heard of. Um, the section 5 0 4 sit-in. Have you ever heard of the Americans with Disabilities Act? And a majority of them have maybe heard of it, but most have absolutely no background. 'cause we're not taught this in high school.

So we explore the section 5 0 4 sit-in, which occurred in the 1970s and is the longest peaceful protest sit-in, in US history to this day.

[00:04:48] Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:49] Karly Keiper: And we never talk about

[00:04:50] Michael Zarick: that. And that's for wheelchair advocacy? Yeah, it's for disability

[00:04:52] Karly Keiper: advocacy. So,

[00:04:53] Michael Zarick: oh, just overall

[00:04:54] Karly Keiper: in general. Yes. And there were, there were so many people represented.

Um, and if I can just like nerd out for a second,

[00:05:00] Michael Zarick: you're allowed to do that.

[00:05:01] Karly Keiper: Yay. Um, the thing that I love so much about the 5 0 4 sit-in is, um, it was a bunch of, we had physical disabilities. We had, uh, people with, um, intellectual disabilities or cognitive delays. There were people who were blind and deaf and they cut off the heat.

The, like the hot water. Mm-hmm. And so they improvised, um, they wait when you,

[00:05:23] Michael Zarick: the first day is in regard to the government.

[00:05:25] Karly Keiper: The government, I'm sorry, the second they. So there is a villain in this story and it was, um, the, um, department of Health and Wellness. Mm. Uh, they, so section 5 0 4 is one census

[00:05:37] Michael Zarick: who's health and wellness?

[00:05:39] Karly Keiper: So currently, um, this I think would be what RFK Junior is currently running. Yeah. Um, this was like the seventies version, um, our. Person villain, which I, I try to make clear that like he is one person who, who bears the load of a lot of the, um, frustration mm-hmm. That occurred at that time. His name was Joseph Califano, but it was more of a systemic issue.

So he was getting a lot of pressure from businesses because if they were to put section 5 0 4 into law, that meant that there had to be curb cuts, there had to be accessible entrances, there had to be ways to get from the first floor to the second floor. Mm-hmm. That's very costly.

Yeah.

And so, um, when the sentence was put in a lot of businesses, companies, organizations were like, wait a sec, where's the money coming?

So it was a huge money thing. Um, but this group of ragtag handicapped individuals, that's what they called 'em at the time. Um, they just took over the, um, San Francisco HEW building. They also took over five other locations, but those only lasted about one or two days. Um, the San Francisco lasted 24 days.

Hmm. So 24 days, they occupied that space

[00:06:53] Michael Zarick: and without leaving.

[00:06:55] Karly Keiper: Without leaving. That's,

[00:06:55] Michael Zarick: that's absurd.

[00:06:56] Karly Keiper: It was bananas. Um, the Black Panthers were a major contributor, um, and also kind of no

[00:07:01] Michael Zarick: surprise,

[00:07:02] Karly Keiper: no surprise. Right. And also kind of taught them like how to be activists. You know, I think when all of us start, and we talk about this a little bit in class, like we're taught to be polite, we're taught to wait our turn, we're taught to do all these things.

And there are times when, um, we have to stand up for ourselves. And, um, and so, you know, pushing through and demanding what they want, and that's what they did. Mm-hmm.

Um,

they cut off the phones. But there were a bunch of deaf people in the space, and so they just went to the windows and signed through the windows to people down below and got all their communication messages.

It's so fun, friends to look at the innovation that came like with, with disability that led to that success. And so I like, it's something that when I found out about it, I just was obsessed. Um, and I find that my students are just as excited about it. Like it's something that is so cool that we need to talk about more.

Yeah, because they were so. Um, underestimated. They were just incredibly underestimated. And I think that that was kind of their advantage. They took, they, they did it. So we, that's a lot of our classes looking at the history at that time, um, what it would mean to be a disabled person without any kind of accessible features.

Um, because my students, um, a DA was passed in 1990 and that codified the law that everywhere had to be accessible. And so most of our students now, um, don't know a world that isn't physically accessible. I was

[00:08:33] Michael Zarick: gonna bring that up. So we think about all the things you listed about like curb cuts mm-hmm.

And second floor accessibility and wheelchair ramps is like, that's just the way things are. Versus like, when I think about if to translate this into modern day terms in terms of things that I think about, it's like, yeah. Business owners right now are very against, um, reducing parking lots. Parking spaces.

This is not to say that this is equivalent, but it's a similar thing where it's, oh, I'm a business owner. It's expensive, at least by my perception, to get rid of parking spaces 'cause I no longer have room for cars to come through. But if you replace those parking spaces with, uh, accessible spaces, spaces that pedestrians can exist in, um, you increase the amount of transit spaces, absolutely.

You have increased the foot traffic and ideally in the outcome, you have an increase in business. So your perception is that this will affect you negatively. But in the long term. It could theoretically benefit you greatly.

[00:09:35] Karly Keiper: Absolutely. From a business perspective. So a very

[00:09:37] Michael Zarick: similar thing where it's like, you know, maybe I, in the past I couldn't have had certain, if you're thinking about this from a fiscal way, which is not always the best way to think, but, um, you know, there's a whole subset of the population that was inaccessible to you in terms of like making money.

[00:09:53] Karly Keiper: Absolutely. And remains, you know, um, a lot of the disability advocates that I follow online will talk about, like, there's this, posh new restaurant, and then they get there and they can't even get in the, they physically cannot get into the door. Mm-hmm. And so their entire party of friends can't go to that restaurant.

They just lost that business. Yeah. So, um, accessibility is, is good for everyone. Mm-hmm. But ultimately we want it for our disabled friends.

[00:10:18] Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm. So, one of the most surprising things you told me months and months ago is that often by the end of your semester with your students. Many of your students will come up to you and be like, I didn't know about this.

I didn't know what it meant to have a disability. I think I have a disability. Can you Yeah. Speak to, did that happen to you this semester?

[00:10:40] Karly Keiper: Um, it hasn't so far, but I will say the spring semester is tough. Um, the spring semester is when, um, students are kind of pushed to their limit.

Mm.

And that is the thing that we talk about so much at the college level.

'cause I'll have students come forward and be like, well, I never knew that I had this, I always got good grades.

Yeah.

And you're like, you can be disabled and get straight A's. Yeah. I know many of 4.0 students at Butler who's who are disabled. And um, and so there's so many beliefs that we have about what it means to be disabled.

Um, and also like. Acquired disability and threshold is a huge piece. So a lot of us just have a huge threshold. We are gritty, we're resourceful, right? And so we just figure it out for ourselves. But there's always something that feels like when I talk to students, I would say, especially my, um, neurodivergent students, so things like a DHD, autism, anxiety, depression, they'll be like, I, I never understood why it was so much easier for somebody else to do this than me.

And I think that's like another important reason why we should talk about it. Because you know, you only know your experience, right? And so you go through the world thinking this is just what it's like to be a human. And yes, being a human can be really hard, but you know when, when you talk to somebody and it's like, oh no, it's not actually like that.

And then when you talk to somebody else who's like, oh, I actually do feel that exact same way, and here's what's helped for me. That's that community that changes the world. Mm-hmm. Like it makes it more accessible.

Yeah.

And that's why, um, I think. Building. Uh, I really love when I can build a classroom that is a community.

Um, I'm not the best at it, but I, I try really hard, um, for it to be playful. I cuss, um,

[00:12:25] Michael Zarick: just that not the teacher cussing. I do.

[00:12:27] Karly Keiper: Oh yeah. I love to say fuck.

[00:12:28] Michael Zarick: I will say, I will say the one class I came to you had gushers and fruit roll-ups. Yeah. And I was so down with that.

[00:12:36] Karly Keiper: I always bring a snack because it's a five 30 to 6 45 class and you know, we're all hungry and, uh, need a little sugar.

Um, and so yeah, so I try and build community and make it okay for us to think this isn't them, it's also me too, you know, because they're, it's an, it's a lot easier to talk about them, but then when you start to realize like, oh, them is me. Um, and but embracing that, identifying is that understanding yourself, like, isn't that what we're doing?

In this life, right? Mm-hmm. We're just trying to understand ourselves in the world better. And so, yeah. So I will nearly every year have someone come up and say, or like, register with Student Disability Services because they're like, oh, that's me.

[00:13:21] Michael Zarick: Well, it's like you talk about like the, the, the dimming of people.

It's, and that realization of them as me, like when you talk about the Black Panther party supporting people, disability advocates, like that's a very obvious, like them as me moment where it's like. As an exploited people, as a people who are, are viewed as a minority or viewed as lesser. It makes very obvious sense that the Black Panther party be like, you and I are allies.

[00:13:53] Karly Keiper: Yeah.

[00:13:53] Michael Zarick: We should work together.

[00:13:55] Karly Keiper: Absolutely. And there was also the, another thing that I love about disability, I think especially right now is it's so intersectional.

Mm-hmm.

So the Black Panther party got really involved because of a guy named Brad Lomax, and Brad found out that he had, um, Ms. Uh, I believe it was Ms.

Um, so he lived a good portion of his life, non-disabled and then acquired disability. And he had been really active in Black Panthers. And so I think that's also a really unique piece that disability has that I would say outside of the L-G-B-T-Q-I-A community, I'm not sure, maybe feminism too, but, um, is there's so many opportunities to like show up for each other and they really did that for him.

But I agree with you, the Black Panther party was so innovative at their, at the time for getting people's needs met when nobody else would, and they saw a need and they, I, I, gosh, I wish I had the quote, but, um, many of them were like, yeah, like this is what we do. Like this is our people. We're showing up for our people.

[00:14:56] Michael Zarick: Yeah.

[00:14:56] Karly Keiper: Um, I hate that they get a bad rap because it

[00:14:59] Michael Zarick: gives of some of their actions,

[00:15:01] Karly Keiper: but there's so much, I mean yeah, free, free and re reduced lunches because of them. Like there's, so I also appreciate getting the opportunity to like. Highlight a really beautiful act that they did. 'cause they really helped make it

[00:15:13] Michael Zarick: successful.

Yeah. I mean, when you talk about a, a true community organization, one that exists and operates within a community and is of the community, I think the Black Panther Party definitely,

[00:15:22] Karly Keiper: oh my gosh.

[00:15:23] Michael Zarick: Emphasizes that. And to see them sort of support another community in that way, just ma it all makes sense.

[00:15:29] Karly Keiper: Yeah.

It's so huge.

[00:15:31] Michael Zarick: So is there a, actually, would you, are you comfortable sharing about your own disability?

[00:15:37] Karly Keiper: Sure. Yeah. I, I have multiple calls because

[00:15:39] Michael Zarick: frankly, like, I, I think you present as somebody who does not have a disability, which I think is an important part of this conversation. Yeah. Um, because I think we, like you said, we will talk about othering I think maybe in a little bit, but like.

We think of disability as only being somebody in a wheelchair, only somebody without an arm or somebody with a very out and about like mental disability of some kind. Mm-hmm. So when I see someone like you who is a professor or whatever, like, it's not obvious, but when you, that's sort of getting into this idea of like, what is a disability or like Yeah.

[00:16:18] Karly Keiper: Yeah. Okay. And there are so many ways we can define that. Yeah. But I'll, I'll talk about myself for a bit and I want to like state outright that identifying as disability for me is still fairly new too. Um, I think that it is a, it's an incredibly personal, um, journey that one has to go on. Um, so I have had anxiety and depression my whole life.

I wanna make that fully clear. But I also grew up in a really rural community. Um, I'm a first generation college student. My parents. Are lovely. Um, RIP dad, but um, but like, they just didn't know this stuff, you know? And so, mm-hmm.

[00:16:56] Michael Zarick: Well, it's kind of like this, like, you know, like that chart. You ever seen that?

I'm sure you have the chart of like left-handedness.

[00:17:01] Karly Keiper: I am also left-handed. Tell me, well, well,

[00:17:03] Michael Zarick: like you, like see in this, I don't know what the date is exactly, but assume it's the sixties and seventies, there's just like a, when they stopped

[00:17:09] Karly Keiper: making people Yeah. Is that, yeah, just like

[00:17:11] Michael Zarick: a straight upshoot of like left-handedness.

It's like, oh, we've identified this thing. So now it's,

[00:17:16] Karly Keiper: oh my gosh. We could get into that about autism too. Um, but yeah, like when we stop forcing people into being something that they're not suddenly when they identify, like those numbers go up.

Yeah.

Wild. But yeah, so, um, so for me, I think one, it was realizing again that like my experience isn't the norm.

That panic attacks aren't things that people have once or two, twice a year? I don't, I don't

[00:17:37] Michael Zarick: think so.

[00:17:39] Karly Keiper: Um, I just thought, you know, your body gets overwhelmed and does these things, but, um, so in college I was actually diagnosed and, um, it was pretty well manageable with just lifestyle changes. And so again, I didn't claim to have a disability because it isn't limiting me in any way.

And it really wasn't until I dove into this, um, after coming to work at Butler when I realized that like. I am perpetuating stigma by not identifying as someone who has a disability. Because I do, I will say, especially right now, my disabilities will show wind up. Um,

[00:18:15] Michael Zarick: ayyy.

[00:18:17] Karly Keiper: And so for me to deny my own experience would be unfair.

And then also exactly what you were saying. You know, I would like to think I'm someone that people could look up to. Um, and if I don't share that I have a disability, then someone who has anxiety, depression, autoimmune conditions, things of that nature may think like, this just isn't in the cards for me.

This isn't something that's, that I can do when that is so untrue. Now, does it have to look different? Yeah. Like, yes. Um, but that doesn't mean you can't do it. Um, and so that's when I really started to embrace it. But it is something that I get, I can get really insecure about. And so, um, I, I think that, I think something that people find really challenging about disability is that it is so nuanced.

It is not straightforward. And that's complicated and hard for us. Like, we want black and white and it's just not. Um, but I also think that there are so many great learning experiences in general from living in the gray. Mm-hmm. And from like having those kinds of conversations and identifying the parts of ourselves that, um, we've been taught to hide.

So I'm trying to embrace it now.

[00:19:27] Michael Zarick: Let's go.

[00:19:29] Karly Keiper: Um, and then what was the second part of your question? I'm so sorry. So we were talking about, do I,

[00:19:33] Michael Zarick: do I remember, that's a great question. Uh, are you comfortable sharing about your own disability and then mm-hmm. Oh, it was sort of just a, a statement about like, means testing what it means to have a disability.

Like, yeah. So saying like, oh, what is it? Like, talk like, oh, something very physical and visible, or. Uh, mentally visible in whatever way that means. Like, versus like something that outwardly you're a high functioning person who has no,

[00:20:05] Karly Keiper: yeah. No clear manifestation. No

[00:20:06] Michael Zarick: clear manifestation. That's a great way to phrase it.

[00:20:09] Karly Keiper: Um, absolutely. Um, there is a clip and it's only like five minutes long, and I encourage everyone to watch it on YouTube so it's free. Um, send it to me.

Okay. Put in the notes.

Awesome. It's called a Crip Camp Lab story. Oh. And it's by the same man who, um, created a Crip camp who, um, he himself, uh, has a physical disability and park took, and a lot of what he talked about.

Um, well, in that story, it's about two people who have, um, dwarfism, or I think she has osteogenesis and Perfecta, but, um, and her husband who has dwarfism, grew up in a small, uh, town and never saw anyone else that looked like him. And they talk a lot about identifying as a dis, like as having a disability. And he said, until I met other people like me, and I had that conversation, I didn't know, again, like it's that thing of like, I just thought I had shorter stature.

He kept saying short stature, short, short stature. Mm-hmm. You can tell he is still a little uncomfortable with the word dwarf. Fair. Um,

yeah.

Right.

I suppose. I don't know

that we've figured that one out yet, but, um, but then he finds this community and this community understands him and they have, you know, like he, he feels sexy for the first time and desirable.

Like there are all these things that come with that. And he talks to Judy Heumann once and he says, do I have a disability? And ju and her classic Judy is a mother of the disability rights movement. Um, said, uh, well of course you do. And he had to kind of grapple with what does that mean? Um, and I think he felt comfortable identifying within that community.

Um, but identifying as having a disability, like I said, is deeply personal. Um.

And I think varies based on where you are and how safe it is. So in, hi, in Sam's case, because he had dwarfism, he cannot conceal it as well as like I could, right? I could get a job, I could apply for an apartment, I could, I could buy car, I could do a lot of things without people realizing that I have a disability.

Whereas there are some people where it is evident and that is very hard and they, they often have to identify sooner. But I will say that without identifying, and when we don't have community where we can relate, therefore, then identify. Mm-hmm. we tend to hide and then when we hide, we perpetuate stigma.

And unintentionally a lot of ableism happens unintentionally. And so I will say, I think again, like I know I, I'm a broken record, but like, this is why we need to talk about it. This is why we need to talk about our differences. This is why we need to feel courageous in safe environments. Mm-hmm. To share the things that feel quote unquote wrong about us.

Mm-hmm. Because that's how we reduce stigma. That's how we,

' cause I think with invisible disability, the challenge is that no assumptions are made about you, which is a beautiful thing. Right. Again, I can get employment. But on the other hand, non-disabled assumptions are made about you that create barriers so that you have the same capacity as everyone else, that you can work as fast as everyone else, that you can handle really noisy environments without having any kind of a reaction that you can wear a certain uniform without having any kind of reaction.

There are a lot of things that people assume about a non-disabled experience that can really hurt people with invisible disabilities. But we are, I think about 28% people are like, there are that many people in wheelchairs. No, no. Right. The truth is a lot of us are invisible. And we haven't had the opportunity to identify, um, or we ourselves just like we don't know it.

Yeah, we don't.

[00:23:56] Michael Zarick: Or even just like also on the topic of like 28%. Yeah. Isn't that low balling? Theoretically yes.

[00:24:01] Karly Keiper: Because that's why I said these are people, like, these are identified, have said on the census or have put in an employment. Yeah. This could be much higher. I had a friend say that to me recently.

Mm-hmm. He was like, well, we would just find out that there's more. Yeah.

[00:24:12] Michael Zarick: Um, like, am I allowed to share the story about your coworker that you shared with me? The typing one.

[00:24:19] Karly Keiper: Oh, go for it.

[00:24:20] Michael Zarick: Oh, okay. I don't know. Well, you can, you also explain it better than I do, but you, you mentioned two things, which is the guy with dwarfism saying like, I never perceived myself that way.

And there's two mm-hmm. Things I'm thinking of. One is in the book that I have in my backpack, what's the name of the book?

[00:24:34] Karly Keiper: Rolling Warrior. Rolling Warrior by Judy Heumann.

[00:24:36] Michael Zarick: In the very beginning of the book, she talks about never perceiving herself as. Being disabled or different in any way until a kid like walks up to her and be's like, and is like, why you look like that?

Yeah. Or like, why are you sitting down? Or whatever. Yeah. I think

[00:24:49] Karly Keiper: he says, are you sick?

[00:24:50] Michael Zarick: Are you sick? Yeah. Um, because

[00:24:52] Karly Keiper: it hits her so hard. But

[00:24:53] Michael Zarick: she was, she never before that moment was like, I'm just, I just am, am. I just am. Yeah. And then the topic of your coworker who, um, you said has a small hand, what's the word?

Yeah. She's a limb difference. A limb difference.

[00:25:05] Karly Keiper: It's one of my best friends. Um,

[00:25:07] Michael Zarick: she was talking about how her sister was always a faster typist. She's to her? Yeah. She's

[00:25:12] Karly Keiper: a twin. Okay. And she's a twin. And she is amazing. Like, she's so talented at everything that she does. Um, but she was, we were talking and a lot of our job involves transcribing interviews and she was sharing a frustration about how she doesn't type that fast.

And she was like, yeah, my sister has always been a faster typer than me. And I'm like,

[00:25:33] Michael Zarick: your sister has two, two hands. Hey girl,

[00:25:37] Karly Keiper: I love that for you. But like. Hey girl. And I think the thing that I love is we have that we have a friend, like a genuine friendship. And so I could kind of call her out on that and be like, whatcha talking about?

Why do you have that level of expectation of yourself? But that, thank you Michael, for using that example. And I will check to make sure she's okay with it. But I think she would be, um, she was holding herself to a standard.

[00:26:04] Michael Zarick: That is, is on the topic of like what you just mentioned about like exactly

[00:26:08] Karly Keiper: like why, and, and also like we do this all the time with disability where, you know, we, we just expect everyone to just perform at a non-disabled level when like, there, there is a disadvantage here.

Like that's what disability is. So by law, the legal definition of disability is that it functionally limits one or more major areas of life, which, um, we also include like academics, education, learning. So if it gets in the way of one area of life, it's a disability. And that's again, like kind of complicated for people to think about because I will sometimes meet with students who are like, I'm a straight A student, but I haven't brushed my teeth in two weeks.

You know? Yeah, if you've got some sensory stuff going on, yeah. Makes perfect sense. Why you wouldn't brush your teeth. If you are already super stressed, you're not gonna do the most excruciating thing, you know? And so, again, so important for us to talk about it, but disabled people are constantly holding themselves to non-disabled standards.

And I think society has taught us to do that. Excuse me. And it leads to a lot of like criticism and shame and doubt of ability. That is, I think, really deeply unfair. You know? 'cause disabled people are some of the scrappiest people I know. Like they are just badass. They are, they are. I like, I'm, what was the

[00:27:35] Michael Zarick: name of the woman who passed away recently that I texted you about?

[00:27:38] Karly Keiper: Alice Wong.

[00:27:39] Michael Zarick: Alice Wong.

[00:27:39] Karly Keiper: I found out she's a Carmel native.

[00:27:41] Michael Zarick: Oh, for real?

[00:27:41] Karly Keiper: I didn't know that. Yeah, I guess

[00:27:43] Michael Zarick: I didn't see that in the news. We sucked

[00:27:45] Karly Keiper: too. She like went out west as soon as she was, as she could. But, um, yeah, Alice Wong is a perfect example again of like someone who, when you look at her, and if you don't know about this or challenge your perspective, you think, okay, this is a person who doesn't speak traditionally who has limited mobility, who's very small, who uses a wheelchair, but she's an incredible artist.

She is, she can bring people together, you know, for activism like no other, I mean, she has transformed what like creative activism is. Um, yeah. So I mean, but, but the courage it takes. The courage that it took, Judy and the courage that it takes Alice and the like, strength to say, even though all of these people are telling me that I can't do this, I believe I can.

And like, I don't know that I'm strong enough to do that. You know, like I think I would've believed them. Mm-hmm.

[00:28:48] Michael Zarick: And that's

[00:28:48] Karly Keiper: fucked.

[00:28:49] Michael Zarick: Yeah.

[00:28:49] Karly Keiper: It's really fucked.

[00:28:53] Michael Zarick: The next thing on my mind that I really enjoyed speaking with you about is your anger, your, your real and very new perspective. Anger on when, for example, the example you gave when a local school will like, uh, elect. A person with a disability or autism to be like prom queen or king. And then the local news will like, go speak to them and be like, oh my God, look at this.

Your face is so funny.

[00:29:30] Karly Keiper: So let's talk about this, because I will tell you, like, I have gotten into arguments with journalists about this, and it's complicated because it feels counterintuitive.

Mm-hmm.

It does, right? It's, it's not something, it's something that you do have to, like, take a moment with. So please, I encourage you all to really chew on this.

When we highlight someone with a disability, especially an evident disability, something like Down Syndrome, something like cerebral palsy, um, but even cognitive disabilities, um, or, or autism, things of that nature, when we, I, I have no problem with electing those people, prom king and queen, if they are a great friend.

They deserve to be that prom, king and queen they would have been otherwise. Which I will tell you from working as a life skills teacher, some of like, I miss my community there. Those are some of the greatest people I have ever known. They are great friends. They do genuinely care about you. They could be prom, king and queen, but when we do it out of sympathy and then we put it on the news, it is truly just inspiration porn.

It is meant for non-disabled people to enjoy. It is not meant to forward our movement to get awareness because if, if you look 'em up, and there are so many online, if you look at every single one of them, they mostly focus on the non-disabled people. They almost always only interview the non-disabled people because the interviewers don't have the skills, sorry, but don't have the skills to interview someone who, who is not going to answer traditionally.

And so the whole, the, and I can say this because they all are this way, for the most part, the whole thing is about non-disabled people charitably giving this position to someone with a disability. And when we put that on the news, what we're saying is that this person with a disability becoming prom king or queen, or being on the cheerleading team or the swim team and not like getting first place, just being on the team is something newsworthy.

Is not every day. And when we, when we teach people that disabled people getting things that non-disabled people get is something newsworthy, we perpetuate that they don't actually deserve those things. This is a rare occurrence that we should celebrate. It is not going to happen all the time. And that perpetuates stigma.

Mm-hmm. It teaches us that we one should sympathize with people with disabilities, which I have a real problem with. And two, that, that, well, this really isn't meant for disabled people. We're just giving them this moment. Right.

[00:32:17] Michael Zarick: You're shaking. Uh, I It doesn't do any good. It's, but you're right. Like it's really hard to wrap your mind around. But I like totally agree that it's, it's. Again, really hard to wrap your mind around it. Yeah. Because it's also like, if you don't highlight those people,

[00:32:32] Karly Keiper: then

[00:32:33] Michael Zarick: no one, one sees them. Right?

There's no one oversees them and it's Yes, yes. But maybe that's okay.

[00:32:37] Karly Keiper: Well, I, I just don't think we're to a place yet. And I'm not saying that disabled people shouldn't be on the news. There are a lot of reasons why at my, um, my partner Adam was a sports journalist, and, um, he covered, uh, a wrestler who had been to state, like, I think he was like a sophomore and he'd been to state both years and he's fully deaf.

Um, and his interpreter gives him his, like coach's message while he's on the mat. Mm. So not only does he have to wrestle this guy to the ground, he's

[00:33:11] Michael Zarick: gonna like, make eye contact with a guy. He has to

[00:33:12] Karly Keiper: make eye contact with his, um, interpreter to know what move he should be doing next

[00:33:17] Michael Zarick: again.

[00:33:19] Karly Keiper: That takes twice as much skill.

Right. Like you, you have to be able to do it without even looking at him.

[00:33:23] Michael Zarick: A dude's squeezing the blood outta your brain. Exactly. And you gotta make eye contact with

[00:33:26] Karly Keiper: him. And Adam, I thought, did, I mean, you know, he's my partner, so I'm super biased, but he did such a fantastic job of highlighting like that piece and also his history, but like giving most of the credit to the fact that this is a young man who is going to state.

Mm-hmm. Right?

Mm-hmm. That's what we're talking about. He also happens to be disabled. Cool. Yeah. Let's talk about that too. That's how it should be. Disability can be highlighted, but when we make it this, like say it's inspiration porn. I mean, when we make it this thing that like we say, awe to, or, oh, poor thing.

Or, I mean, if that is your reaction. No, thank you. Mm-hmm. Like in a, in our community, no, thank you. That is not what we are trying to get. Yeah.

[00:34:13] Michael Zarick: You're not a pet. No.

[00:34:15] Karly Keiper: Yes, that is perfectly. We are not a dog. Like, no.

[00:34:18] Michael Zarick: Uh, one more question. Mm-hmm. Because I really think this is something I think about a lot on the topic of, uh, anybody can be disabled on the fragility of humanity.

[00:34:38] Karly Keiper: Yeah. Yeah. At any given point we could Yes. Acquire disability. Yeah. Um,

[00:34:42] Michael Zarick: I think about that a lot in the context of like, um, about a week ago, somebody who was a local cyclist. Their name is Riley. I've never met them, but I just know their name. They were hit by a car, uh, when they were biking and they broke a ton of bones in their body.

They're probably gonna be in the hospital for a while. I hope they're all right. They, I think they will be all right. But you know, the outcome of them getting hit by a car is that. Maybe they will walk with a limp, maybe they will not walk at all.

[00:35:13] Karly Keiper: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:14] Michael Zarick: And now they have to experience the world in a totally different way.

Maybe you get shot in America, that happens a lot more than it should. Yeah. Maybe you take a hit to the head you shouldn't have, and now you can't think Right. Or whatever Right. Means, but you know. Yeah. And you think differently the way

[00:35:30] Karly Keiper: you did. Mm-hmm.

[00:35:32] Michael Zarick: When you talk about advocating for people with disabilities, you are always advocating for yourself.

And also you could over time, just like the march of time goes on, and you become disabled by way of age.

[00:35:48] Karly Keiper: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:49] Michael Zarick: Absolutely. So when you talk about advocating for people with disabilities, you are always advocating for yourself in some capacity, even if you never encounter that.

[00:36:00] Karly Keiper: Yes.

[00:36:00] Michael Zarick: You're encountering each one of us.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. From a, a, like a, even just a possible futures. Mm-hmm. Um. Do you have any thoughts on that?

[00:36:08] Karly Keiper: Yeah, well, I wanna point out one other thing because

[00:36:10] Michael Zarick: please,

[00:36:11] Karly Keiper: the invisible disabilities piece, I think we underestimate, um, disability that can come from trauma, and I think we're seeing that right now with, um, well, one physical trauma, like long COVD has been, um, I guess I just heard from Imani Barbary, um, Crutches and Spice.

She's fantastic.

[00:36:29] Michael Zarick: Crutches and Spice. Yes. Okay. She

[00:36:31] Karly Keiper: is, um, a disability advocate, um, who is primarily on face or on, uh, social media. I love her on TikTok, she mentioned that long COVID is actually, um, the like highest rate of disability among young people right now. But also we think about the psychological impact of the last few years.

Or, um, I'll be really vulnerable. Um, losing my father to brain cancer, um, in seven months from like healthy to dead was huge and gave me some, um, trauma that, um, impacted my way of life. Right? So not only can we of course, like obtain a physical disability mm-hmm. But we could also have a trauma happen to us that significantly changes the way we view the world overnight.

Mm-hmm.

And,

um, I also think that's so important for us to talk about because it really does shift your brain, but, um, yeah. On my first day of class with my students, I, on syllabus day I say outright like, you don't have to care about this, but there may be one day when you have to.

Mm-hmm.

Um, it might be your family member, it might be you, it might be your best friend, your neighbor, but you will experience disability.

Um, directly or indirectly in your life. And that is why this is important. 'cause it

is us.

[00:37:57] Michael Zarick: Yeah. Well, I mean, last year, well, snow's on the ground outside right now. Yeah,

[00:38:01] Karly Keiper: yeah.

[00:38:01] Michael Zarick: Last year when there was snow on the ground,

[00:38:04] Karly Keiper: we just got

[00:38:04] Michael Zarick: really loud in here and we speak more into the microphone.

[00:38:07] Karly Keiper: Yeah. Um,

[00:38:08] Michael Zarick: last year when there was snow on the ground, I was walking down college, uh, up in Broad Ripple where I live, and there was a, there was a lot of snow on the ground and there was, it was piled up.

Sorry. You don't have to do that, don't worry about it. Um, and there was a man in a wheelchair like trying to get into the CVS parking lot and I just like, couldn't help. I should have run home to get like a shovel or whatever, but, you know, that's not necessarily my job. Um, but this guy was. Like looking at me basically for like some advice.

He was like, I don't know what to do in this moment. Like, there's this wall of snow in front of me. I, and I'm like a pretty young strapping lad. Sure. I get to step over that wall of snow. Yeah. Or climb over it or whatever. Yeah. Um, but this guy who's wheelchair bound, just like the world was not fit for him.

And I, every time I see snow on the ground, I mean, I, I was walking on the sidewalk here where a Goldleaf, if I never mentioned that, but um, and I was like slipping and slide and I can't imagine like having a cane or, or just anything like that. Yeah. Or when you on the topic of like, it could just be anybody, you know.

[00:39:15] Karly Keiper: Absolutely. Yeah. So I don't, uh, again, like I think until you have to think about it, you don't. Right. Mm-hmm. Right. And, and why would you, our brains,

[00:39:24] Michael Zarick: there's so many other things to think about.

[00:39:25] Karly Keiper: Yeah. Yeah. They're, they're very like us focused as they should be. But um, but then also when we stop to consider, like I have an assignment where I have students consider.

What it might take to do something that they do in their daily life if they had limited mobility and everyone is like, oh my God, I didn't realize how heavy doors were. I didn't realize that one. I mean, we're talking about snow. Snow is a nightmare for physical disability. Ice is worse. Ice is a nightmare for all of us, but, um, right.

Like we're all just one fall away. But, um, but, uh, things like a stick

in the middle of a sidewalk.

Yeah. Anytime I'm, I do move those on my walk very often.

Yeah. Um,

I'll move them because a stick in the middle of a sidewalk can prevent someone from getting to where they're going. Um, and, and then when you think about.

The incredible level of patience and time that it takes to navigate the world that isn't accessible for you as someone with a disability. Um,

Reed Davenport. He, um, has several documentaries about disability, but I Didn't See You There is one that I've played in class before and that I encourage everyone watch because it shows. The incredible patience that it takes to be disabled and why there may be times when you run into somebody who's just really grumpy and you're like, well, that's a grumpy person.

Yeah. You'd be grumpy too if you had to go through their day. Um, you just would, uh, it's, it takes like, just Yeah. And, and, and the number of obstacles that someone in a wheelchair faces is just So this time of year, I can't even imagine. Yeah. Like, I think I would just hibernate.

[00:41:09] Michael Zarick: There's so many moments where, and I don't actively think about it in the moment, but like just doing minor reflection right now.

Crossing the street from my house to go to fresh time in Broad Ripple. I can just cross wherever I do a little sprint across sometimes. Yeah. Probably when I shouldn't, if I slipped, I'd probably die, um, from a car.

[00:41:26] Karly Keiper: Oh no.

[00:41:27] Michael Zarick: Um, but I can't, you can't take those sort of direct paths when you are of a certain type of person.

[00:41:35] Karly Keiper: Yeah. We talk about that in class this next semester. Mm-hmm. About, um. You know, I'll use Butler's campus. Sorry, friends. Sorry. Butler friends. Um, it's very,

[00:41:45] Michael Zarick: I mean, it's very, um, Notre Dame, like lots of crisscrossing paths and stuff. There

[00:41:49] Karly Keiper: are, it's, it's beautiful. Yeah. I mean, I'm so biased. I went there and I teach there, but, um, but, uh, if you look at Butler's campus, a lot of the, um, ramps are on the corners of buildings.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. But if you look at, uh, a building like Jordan, that's very, very long and it's like a hundred years old or 150 or something like that, it only has two accessible entrances. Mm-hmm. If you have a class in between, you have to go all the way around to go into an entrance to then come back.

Whereas if you're someone who doesn't need a ramp, you can just go straight up the stairs into the class.

[00:42:23] Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:23] Karly Keiper: So we have, um, one

[00:42:24] Michael Zarick: of like 12 entrances.

[00:42:26] Karly Keiper: Yeah. Because there really are, yeah, there's like 10 entrances, but only two of them are accessible. And so in our class we talk about like, let's, let's really think about what that means and what we, and.

And in terms of Butler, like I also know the other side of that, and it's a 100-year-old building and we could put in two accessible entrances. There are other little stairs, there's other little bits and pieces that were created before disabled people were even allowed to be in those areas. And so we have to do with what we can, and we leave space for that.

But, um, but we talk about like, can convenience be a right and, and if not, why? Why would we allow convenience for non-disabled people, but for disabled people? That's asking too much.

[00:43:14] Michael Zarick: We'll leave it there.

[00:43:15] Karly Keiper: We'll leave it there. Um, oh gosh, I had one other thing that I wanted to make sure that I noted.

[00:43:19] Michael Zarick: No, we're not done.

[00:43:20] Karly Keiper: Oh,

[00:43:21] Michael Zarick: no, we're not. We got more to go. Oh,

[00:43:22] Karly Keiper: okay. Okay. Okay.

[00:43:23] Michael Zarick: What other thing were you thinking?

[00:43:25] Karly Keiper: I lost it.

[00:43:26] Michael Zarick: Okay. If it comes back, we'll, we'll, we'll get there, but, uh, I have some canned, I call 'em the canned questions. Ooh, yeah.

Third Space Indy is brought to you by cityrising.org. Mark Lata has decided to sponsor the podcast. Shout out to Mark. Always.

[00:43:41] Karly Keiper: Great episode.

[00:43:43] Michael Zarick: Oh, with Mark. Oh, that's right. You really like that one. Um, City Rising is a social impact studio that leads supports, uh, sorry, leads and supports innovative projects that strengthen, celebrate and repairs people and places.

So if you're a people or you're the leader of a place or an organization, anything like that, and you are interested in improving your built environment, the area you live in, or the community you exist within, reach out to me. Reach out to Mark Latta or city rising.org and we will hook you up anyways.

Mark has sponsored a question, which is, what is a Third Space to you?

[00:44:21] Karly Keiper: Hmm. Well, this is like one of my favorite, I would consider third spaces. Right now we're at Gold Leaf.

[00:44:28] Michael Zarick: On 46th.

[00:44:29] Karly Keiper: On 46th then like kind of Sobro-y, right? Yeah. I

[00:44:33] Michael Zarick: don't remember the cross street. I got off on Evan. Ev Evanston. Yeah, it's right off Keystone or

[00:44:38] Karly Keiper: College.

If you turn right on college or left on Keystone, you'll find it. Um, I, I truly believe that a, a Third Space is a space where you can be your authentic self. So not only is it community, but it's also like authentic community. Um, the thing that I love about coming here is like last week they were playing some old school Lady Gaga, and I found myself just kind of like, you know, I couldn't help but wiggle.

Yeah. And I watched as like the bartenders were wiggling too. And we all just did our own little, like, like we weren't dancing, but we were dancing like just as a community. And like we're all a little weird, you know? Yeah. We all have our own little and

[00:45:17] Michael Zarick: unspoken

[00:45:17] Karly Keiper: spice of, of weirdness. And being able to show that I think is so important.

Um, I also think for, I have to advocate that I think a Third Space is accessible. Mm. To me, um, I think what does accessible

[00:45:33] Michael Zarick: mean to you?

[00:45:34] Karly Keiper: Oh my goodness.

[00:45:35] Michael Zarick: I, I didn't mean to ask a 15 minute question, but I'm sure I just did. Right.

[00:45:39] Karly Keiper: Um, well, I think the part that's so challenging about accessibility is that it is different for everyone, but I think universal design, so having things in place naturally.

So, um, things like if you're playing videos, having captions, um, paying attention to like the lighting, um, you know, natural light is just way less stressful for any human. Um, you know, paying attention to like sensory needs, asking if people have access needs at like, the start of something. Mm-hmm. Um, other, like taking breaks, like there's a lot allowing people to show up as they are if they sit in a weird position like not.

It drives me crazy when people like, expect people to like sit and like, look,

[00:46:28] Michael Zarick: I've been seeing a lot of videos traditional away. I've been seeing a lot of videos about like, how to be womanly. No, I like,

[00:46:36] Karly Keiper: sorry I

showed my mom, but like,

[00:46:38] Michael Zarick: it was it like, oh, how to sit like a woman, how to like drink a cup of tea.

Like, it was like really odd. Like I don't, I've never thought about this ever,

[00:46:48] Karly Keiper: unfortunately I have as a woman, but like, but yeah. And to some people that's important. If that's important to you. I'm not trying to yuck your yum, but I will say that like those kinds of things can be inaccessible to someone who is neurodivergent, right?

Yeah. Um, and so just letting people show up as they are and, and be who they are, um, I think it's huge. And so, yeah, for me a Third Space is a place where you can be genuine, have community, um, you can be a little weird, and where you can, your needs can be met.

[00:47:19] Michael Zarick: Thank you for answering Next question related.

What is a Third Space that has existed for you previously that no longer does?

[00:47:29] Karly Keiper: That's a good one. Um, okay. I'm gonna use like, I think it still, it still exists and is doing really, really well.

[00:47:36] Michael Zarick: It's okay if it still exists. Okay. It's for me anymore.

[00:47:39] Karly Keiper: K and A Trivia in South Bend, Indiana. K and A k and A. And it stands for Kevin and Ann. Um,

[00:47:47] Michael Zarick: Kevin and Ann.

[00:47:48] Karly Keiper: They are the best. That's so funny.

They got married a few years back, which we love.

[00:47:52] Michael Zarick: How old are these people?

[00:47:53] Karly Keiper: Oh, I think fifties. Okay.

[00:47:55] Michael Zarick: Yeah. Oh, so a, a new love.

[00:47:58] Karly Keiper: Yeah. Like they both kinda like, lived their little lives and then came together and they were dating and decided like, we just want something fun to do in the evenings. They're super social, so they started trivia.

And they always drink wine, which I, you know, especially when I was living in South End, I loved to be some wine. Um, and so we would go to trivia every Wednesday night and just hang with them. There was like this group of crotchety older people that would always compete against us and win, like the highest we got was second place in trivia.

But again, it was just one of those places. I find that structured activities are really helpful when I don't feel motivated to socialize if I know that there's something that's not going to involve spontaneous conversation I'm in. And so like trivia, you know, it's naturally structured. You're doing something, but you're also still engaging in social life.

Um, it was my favorite. It was my absolute favorite. I loved it.

[00:48:51] Michael Zarick: That's so funny. I, when you talk about like having structure in your life in terms of like activities. Ugh. I do, I do this a lot. One of the biggest things that we face as a society right now is this inability for, uh, natural, organic is a better word, organic activity.

So I think, you know, places like New York City do this really well because you just, because their infrastructure is good. But because I, I think about how scheduled my life is. I live off my calendar right now and very few times do I do an organic activity because frankly, I think the infrastructure we live within does not support that.

Uh, so I, I totally agree with you. I'm not going to K and A trivia on a whim because I have to like, think about it 'cause it's probably 15, 20 minutes away from wherever I live. Sure. Versus like something that's around the corner and it's like, oh. Uh, Gold Leaf is doing bingo tonight. I might go to Gold Leaf.

Yeah. Um, we don't have enough of that to, to foster and I'm sort of like an accessibility, like, uh, not go, always got a hate on a car, but like car based societies are very inaccessible. Oh my gosh. If I wanted to be incredibly, if I wanted to be, uh, like an active participant in a city or a society or a community, whatever word you wanted to use, like having the ability to have a free flow flowing life versus one where I have to like, let's use wheelchair for as an example, but it's obviously not the only, like, I have to get into my wheelchair.

I have to roll out into the driveway. I have to. Open the van door. I have to have the ramp rolled down and they have to get in, and then I have to drive 20 minutes and I have to find a park, a handicapped parking space that's probably taken over by some big truck somewhere.

[00:50:44] Karly Keiper: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Or, yep.

Mm-hmm. Or

[00:50:46] Michael Zarick: they're parked too close to the handicapped parking space, so I can't get out, so I have to go somewhere else. Then maybe there's snow on the ground.

[00:50:52] Karly Keiper: Yeah. Or, um, I'm gonna call, I'm gonna call her out because she's so amazing and I'm so sad we lost her. We had an intern at Butler, um, two summers ago named Mia Parra.

She's in Michigan now

[00:51:04] Michael Zarick: by job, not

[00:51:05] Karly Keiper: job.

[00:51:06] Michael Zarick: Oh, she's still

[00:51:06] Karly Keiper: alive. She's doing great. To my knowledge.

[00:51:09] Michael Zarick: Sorry, we did talk about somebody passed away. Oh, you're right, you're right. Um,

[00:51:11] Karly Keiper: no, she's, she's very much still alive, but, um, vision impairment, and I was so grateful to get to know Mia for a lot of reasons. Mm-hmm.

She's a fantastic human. But, um, I got to witness firsthand what it is like for someone with a significant, um, vision impairment, so low vision. Um, the chosen term. Mm-hmm. Someone with low vision trying to get an Uber.

Mm.

If, if you cannot describe your exact location to an Uber driver at, like, especially on Butler's campus, they bless their hearts.

Well,

[00:51:42] Michael Zarick: because Uber has an expectation that you can look at the car. Mm-hmm. Identify the color of the car. Mm-hmm. Look at the license plate. Mm-hmm. And you can read a number to them in some cases Yeah. To get into the car. Yeah.

[00:51:53] Karly Keiper: And Mia is incredibly talented. She like knows her area, like she knows her space even with all of the skills that she's acquired.

And with her cane, there were days when like they would get frustrated and leave her and then she's trying to figure out how to get home from work. So she did not pick Indianapolis because she was like, I need to go somewhere that has public transportation. I need to go to the East coast or the West coast.

'cause that's where those spaces are. Mm-hmm. Because she's young, she's gorgeous.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and she wants to like have a 20 year, you know, a life in her twenties. She wants to be able to go out and not. Have to, you know, get disappointed by calling three Ubers before one of them works out. Like, and we're Indianapolis.

If we're gonna talk about like, keeping good talent, accessibility can keep really, really good talent. The ACH Center is doing fantastic work of bringing excellence, disabled excellence to our city. And there's a guy, we can't sustain them,

[00:52:55] Michael Zarick: I don't know his name. He works for a, a local like hiring firm.

They primarily hire people with disabilities and I see him walking around Broad Ripple, teaching them how to walk around with a cane.

[00:53:03] Karly Keiper: Yeah.

[00:53:04] Michael Zarick: Do you know o

[00:53:04] Karly Keiper: and m? Um,

[00:53:05] Michael Zarick: uh, is it o and m? I think it might be,

[00:53:07] Karly Keiper: well, o and m training, like, um, is a huge thing in the blind, low vision. So it's teaching people how to use their communities.

Oh, there's

[00:53:14] Michael Zarick: like a specific like firm or whatever is it? I think so.

[00:53:18] Karly Keiper: Okay. Yeah. Bosna huge. They're so great. If you ever get a chance to tour their facilities, it's amazing. They work with people who have blind and low vision and people who have acquired blindness. So they have a kitchen in their space, a bedroom, and they teach people like how to live outside.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, it's so I could just go on and on, but, um, yeah.

[00:53:40] Michael Zarick: Um, also just on the topic, we can go however long I really don feel that much, but, um, yeah, if you wanna cut.

[00:53:46] Karly Keiper: So

[00:53:48] Michael Zarick: I also wanna talk a little bit about like, I think it's so fun to talk about like, blind community.

[00:53:55] Karly Keiper: Yeah.

[00:53:55] Michael Zarick: Deaf community. Yeah. I know we talked about, we've talked about deaf community specifically before, but like but one of the clients we are working with at my job right now is, um, like an IVF firm. Hmm. Uh, and they're there to sort of do a little bit of like genetic work.

[00:54:12] Karly Keiper: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:13] Michael Zarick: Um, which I suspect maybe they're to like, you know, ideally remove any, whatever they perceive that as disabilities.

Um, I guess I can actually say that. Mm-hmm. Um, but like, oh, maybe, you know, you're worried about your kid being blind or your kid being deaf. Mm-hmm. And obviously that's a debilitating thing, but there's also that underlying, there's concern or underlying sentiment that there is something wrong with that.

Yes. Um, which I think is the key thing that we like to focus on.

[00:54:42] Karly Keiper: Yeah. For sensory, we have conversation disabilities. I think especially, um, I think this is true of a lot of disabilities, but I think sensory disabilities. Have a strength in community that maybe feels more present. Um. So the deaf community, I'm gonna go there first 'cause please, we know this history.

Um, but the deaf community is like the OG of we are not a disability, we are a culture. And I think blindness has kind of also taken that in a little bit. And I both love that and struggle with that. So I wanna make that fully clear that like mm-hmm. Yeah, we've talked about that. Like, yeah. I'm not in a place yet where, where I feel it's another like, othering thing feel.

It's right. It's separating ourselves to kind of say like, well, I don't have a disability, and what does that mean? But I also think too, that like the deaf community brings up such a great point that like they have their own language, right? And as do as do deaf people, they have brail.

Mm-hmm. The,

they have their own culture and they have their communities and they support one another.

It is more than just a disability. And in my class I teach about the cultural model of disability, which I think mirrors what that's trying to be, which is that we realize that disability is an identity, that even if we remove all of the barriers for deaf and blind people outside of correcting deafness and blindness, they would still have that, right?

Even if they had captions, even if they had, um, audio description, it's still a part of them. And so respecting that piece, I think they have really pushed for that of like, stop seeing what I can't do and start seeing what I can do. And also that it's easy to forget that someone with a sensory disability only has a sensory disability.

Their cognitive ability can be high. Um, their physical ability can be, you know, like incredible athletes. And I think also when we have an apparent disability like that, it's easy to assume like, I have to talk a certain way or slower. Yeah. You know, more. And, and no, and, and I, and, and, and so, and it is that deep, like it really is that deep because it's, it's the difference between treating someone like, like a person and then again like treating somebody like a dog or a child.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, and so I don't

[00:57:12] Michael Zarick: even treat children like that. I treat, I talk to children like their people.

[00:57:15] Karly Keiper: I do talk to dogs like babies, but I do talk to people. I'm gonna call out

[00:57:19] Michael Zarick: my mom. She does talk to my niece and nephew like they're babies. And I'm like, just talk to 'em like they're a person. It

[00:57:24] Karly Keiper: helps with language development.

That's what I think. It helps with language development. Listen here,

[00:57:27] Michael Zarick: Marnie,

[00:57:29] Karly Keiper: sorry to kill the joy, but, um. But yeah, so I think, you know, just keeping, remembering that, remembering that a person with a disability, it can functionally limit one area too. It doesn't have to be the only thing that they bring to the table.

[00:57:47] Michael Zarick: Uh, thank you for sharing, or thank you for answering my, my brain thoughts.

[00:57:52] Karly Keiper: I love them. I love your brain. Thoughts. What?

[00:57:55] Michael Zarick: Um, one last thought. Mm-hmm. Or one last question, and we can keep talking obviously. I'm sure we will. Um, but every episode I have a question from the previous guest.

Love. Um, my previous guest also frequents this Gold Leaf, uh, location. His name is Anderson York. Uh, the Indy Bench Mench. Um,

[00:58:14] Karly Keiper: oh, we see the guy who's building the benches all over.

[00:58:16] Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.

[00:58:17] Karly Keiper: Oh, we love him.

[00:58:18] Michael Zarick: Oh, that's funny. I

[00:58:18] Karly Keiper: follow him on social media. Um, oh, so much so needed.

[00:58:22] Michael Zarick: His question is. I told you I needed to write it down.

This question is, what is a park around town that is not one of the like big popular parks? So no, a Hundred Acres.

[00:58:35] Karly Keiper: Okay.

[00:58:35] Michael Zarick: Uh, that you really, really like. Oh, no, Murat.

[00:58:40] Karly Keiper: Oh my gosh.

[00:58:41] Michael Zarick: No, Frederick Douglas.

[00:58:45] Karly Keiper: So, so like, I don't know if this we're

[00:58:47] Michael Zarick: gatekeeping here. I don't know if this breaks

[00:58:49] Karly Keiper: the rules. But you can find me like three to four times a week at Ellen Berger Park.

[00:58:55] Michael Zarick: What is that?

[00:58:56] Karly Keiper: Ellenberger Park. What's

[00:58:57] Michael Zarick: El Yeah. See you said it like, it's so obvious, Ellenberger Park. Okay. Well it is

[00:59:00] Karly Keiper: larger. It is larger. Um, so it's on the east side. It's right off of Emerson.

[00:59:05] Michael Zarick: Okay.

[00:59:05] Karly Keiper: South Emerson. Um, you can access it from like Emerson in Michigan. Um, I think 10th too.

[00:59:14] Michael Zarick: Honestly, if I don't know the name of it, it probably counts.

[00:59:17] Karly Keiper: I will say that they also just, uh, they're doing a lot of amazing things. Shout out to Felicia, their manager. Um, they just recently paved a section of their, uh, of the park and so it's fully like wheelchair accessible and gorgeous. And there's a, a nice little curb cut from the bus station. Mm-hmm. Um, but that park is just special.

It doesn't really even have any, like, it has a little, like two little playgrounds. It's gonna get this massive field, but.

[00:59:45] Michael Zarick: We really attach ourselves to the funniest things. Yeah. What is, what's what, is there any specific, or is it just like a vibe?

[00:59:52] Karly Keiper: I think when I first moved to Indy, my friends took me to Ellen Berger 'cause they lived nearby and there was a man playing and he does it every now and again.

He'll come and play his trumpet. Mm. And he just happened to be playing his trumpet and it was like one of those hits, sometimes it just hits city moments, you know, where I was like, I'm moving here. Um, and like

[01:00:09] Michael Zarick: somewhere. Yeah. Beyond the,

[01:00:12] Karly Keiper: and and yeah. And, and I just, it's just a really beautiful park. It has like, um, some little wooded areas that my dog and I like to like, get into and get way too gross and dirty.

Um, we call it our adventure lady time. Um, and I think also because my dog is four and when we got her, like that was the first place we started practicing walking. So she and I have a ton of memories together there. Um, but yeah, it's just a fantastic park.

[01:00:41] Michael Zarick: I love that. The, there's like, I don't even know the name of the park.

I probably should. Um, it's not on, well, there's one on the Monon that's north of us.

[01:00:50] Karly Keiper: Hmm.

[01:00:50] Michael Zarick: Uh, it's north of like 52nd Street or something. Uh, well I

[01:00:56] Karly Keiper: may not have been there yet. I

[01:00:57] Michael Zarick: don't know. It's, it's just got a playground and a volleyball court. Nice. I've never even hung out there, frankly. But I just like really like walking by it.

'cause there's always, you know, the kids at the playground and some, there's like a group of homeowners around there who like will always play on the volleyball. Oh. It's like a little sand volleyball court. I don't wanna say beach 'cause it's not at the beach. Sure. And then there's another one. That's like another tiny park that's got a splash pad and some tennis courts also in Broad Ripple that I definitely don't know the name of, uh, that I also have like weirdly attached to.

Yeah. Despite never hanging out there, just like something about them. I just really, yeah, really enjoy.

[01:01:32] Karly Keiper: Parks are lovely.

[01:01:33] Michael Zarick: Yeah. I wish, uh, so I live in Warfleigh. I wish Warley had like a dedicated park. I don't know something about it. There is Broad Ripple Park, but it's like, it's like a little out of the way.

[01:01:45] Karly Keiper: Yeah. A bit of a walk.

[01:01:46] Michael Zarick: Um, at least for me. Uh, amazing. Great Park though. That's all I got. Do you have anything else you wanna talk about?

[01:01:51] Karly Keiper: I do. I just have did come. It came back. Um, so if you're guests are wondering like, um, how can I help, um, with the disability rights movement, how can I like, you know, make the world more accessible?

There are so many easy ways to do it. Um, the first one being if you are someone who has total mobility. Um, don't park at the first spots at a, at a, at a place. Listen.

[01:02:18] Michael Zarick: Oh, you're gonna like this take actually, all

[01:02:19] Karly Keiper: right.

[01:02:21] Michael Zarick: I think people who fight for those close parking spots are freaks. Listen, okay. It's a competition who go to Walmart or Target, or any of these large, big box stores.

We've got any of those. You are fighting for a parking spot that's close and then you end up walking a ton when you're in the store. So you're not even like saving steps.

[01:02:43] Karly Keiper: Yes. Yeah. What are we doing?

[01:02:45] Michael Zarick: I park in the back anyways.

[01:02:47] Karly Keiper: I love that. That is a fantastic way. That's not even disability

[01:02:49] Michael Zarick: focus. That's me just being like, I'm not fighting other cars.

[01:02:53] Karly Keiper: The principle, Adam says that a lot. It's the principle. Um, so yeah, parking, like not close if you don't need to, using the stairs, if you don't have to use an elevator, um, using non-accessible bathrooms if you don't need them. Mm. Uh, the thing that we realize or that we don't realize is, um, when we walk into a place, um, we can use the inaccessible things or I can, I, I'll speak for myself.

I can use the, the inaccessible features. A disabled person can only use the accessible one. And it sucks when you have to go to the bathroom, you walk in and the one bathroom that you can use is being taken up because it's so nice to have all that space. It's universal design. When we love what disability does and we want to recreate it so we could also just make all of them accessible.

[01:03:40] Michael Zarick: Yeah, that's an option. I mean, going, going back to like, it benefits all of us.

[01:03:44] Karly Keiper: It benefits, it benefits all of us. We love a spacious bathroom. We all love a spacious bathroom. Why don't we just create spacious bathrooms then? Right. But until that day comes LOL, leave that space for the person that needs it.

It's nice for us to have a little extra room, but we don't need it. Um, return carts. Costco is the worst advice.

[01:04:02] Michael Zarick: Uh, I always say I have a moral, uh, I think it's easy to tell the moral foundation of a person. By if they return their cart or not.

[01:04:11] Karly Keiper: Fair. Now I will challenge that. I like to go over to the accessible spots and get the carts from there, because sometimes people leave their carts there because they don't have

the ability or energy to get to the cart, corral and back.

Okay. So we can I

know, I know, I know. See, I'm complicating that. But as a general rule, as a general rule, they can be pains in the asses, but, um, but just like taking, um, two minutes out of your day, I will do it sometimes when I'm real pissed off and just slam 'em into like, you can like make it fun. Um, but like moving carts out of the way can assist with mobility.

Um, those are really, really easy ones. Caption all of your social media, put alt text in your social media. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. I

[01:04:55] Michael Zarick: do. I try, well,

[01:04:58] Karly Keiper: alt text is easy to forget it. I do not on Instagram.

[01:04:59] Michael Zarick: Actually. Instagram kind of hides it and I don't think about it. Whereas some other platforms I use don't hide it.

Mm-hmm. It actually, the email platform I use where I write my blogs. When you're about to send it, it'll say these images don't have alt text and actually like pushes you in that direction. So like, so Instagram does hide it. They just make it easy to post.

[01:05:16] Karly Keiper: Yeah. Yeah. And if, 'cause finding alt text and working with that does feel like pretty sophisticated.

You can also just in the bottom, like in your uh, description, just put a little brief, I get real flowery with them 'cause they just think it's kind of fun. Um, but uh,

[01:05:32] Michael Zarick: I have asked, uh, the blind person, I know obviously they speak for all blind people. I said, do these alt texts. Uh, I was like, do the alt text in my blog work.

And it's just like a really light description. And she's like, yes. Yay. Yay. Any alt text is better than none.

[01:05:47] Karly Keiper: Yes, exactly. Exactly. Um, but you could do that. Um, and then also when you hashtag making sure that if it's separate words, capitalizing the, the difference in words. So like if you said like, happy holidays,

[01:06:00] Michael Zarick: so a screen reader can pick up on that.

So a screen

[01:06:02] Karly Keiper: reader, so it doesn't come up as, because that's how it'll be read. Um, those are huge. Um, and you know, just little ways they don't do much to change our lives. It takes seconds out of our day and it makes a huge difference.

[01:06:16] Michael Zarick: Yeah. In someone's life.

[01:06:17] Karly Keiper: In someone's life.

[01:06:18] Michael Zarick: And that's important.

[01:06:19] Karly Keiper: Absolutely.

[01:06:20] Michael Zarick: There's a story, I'll tell it in super, super fast. There's a story I miss from, uh, miss. There's a story I always loved from summer camp. It was like one of those like stories you tell the kids with like a very light, like moral, uh, thing. But it was about classic

[01:06:35] Karly Keiper: camp.

[01:06:36] Michael Zarick: Um. It's about this old man walking on a, walking down a cliff and seeing a beach covered in Starfish.

Um, have you, is this a story that's common?

[01:06:47] Karly Keiper: Um, my dad was the king of like a motivational speech. Oh, okay. And you know,

[01:06:52] Michael Zarick: I didn't know that this is like a common story. Yeah.

[01:06:54] Karly Keiper: No, but go for it. For the people that Dunno. I love this story, man.

[01:06:56] Michael Zarick: Yeah. Walking, uh, on a beach and just the waves are churning and then there's just starfish everywhere and the sun is beating down the starfish and they're all dying because starfish live in the water.

Mm-hmm. And the old man comes across as this kid who's just walking around the beach, reaching down and throwing starfish in the ocean. And the old man looks around, he sees thousands and thousands of starfish. He's like, ask the little boy. He's like little boy. Like, why are you throwing the starfish in the ocean?

Like, you're never gonna get all of them. And the kid goes, well, I helped that one, and it matters to that starfish.

[01:07:33] Karly Keiper: Yes.

[01:07:33] Michael Zarick: Uh. This is not how I would've told this story 10 years ago. But I, I think about that story a lot in terms of like, if you were helping one person, you're helping enough.

[01:07:43] Karly Keiper: Yes. Yes. And there are ripple effects, right?

Um, and so I think when we pay it forward or what, you know, um, maybe that will give someone an extra bit of energy to, you know, or in the case of like, again, that patience piece, it will allow someone to not have to express that level of patience. What a, what a gift. Mm-hmm. What a gift to just what someone ease.

[01:08:11] Michael Zarick: I hope so. Alright, one last question. Karly Kleer Kleer. Er, I did it again.

[01:08:18] Karly Keiper: That's okay.

[01:08:18] Michael Zarick: I just learned that you, there's no l in your last name today. Sorry about that. What question would you like to ask the next Third Space Indy guest? Ooh.

[01:08:26] Karly Keiper: Okay. Can I know who it is? Do you know yet?

[01:08:29] Michael Zarick: I do, but I don't like to tell.

[01:08:30] Karly Keiper: Oh, okay. Um, I think, I think

[01:08:32] Michael Zarick: it, uh, often. I dunno. There's a reason. There's reasons I don't.

[01:08:37] Karly Keiper: Okay. Um, I think, Mike, I'm gonna make my question probably a little accessibility themed,

[01:08:44] Michael Zarick: classic,

[01:08:45] Karly Keiper: right? Um, you're gonna cause someone

[01:08:47] Michael Zarick: trauma. Have you worked on, have you worked on your own cheat on me about your traumas?

[01:08:54] Karly Keiper: Um, that's my question. No. Um, maybe the question would be what is. Something that is meant for disabled people that you have benefited from.

[01:09:06] Michael Zarick: That's a great question and a little self-reflected. We love that here. Ah, uh, Karly, do you have anything to plug?

[01:09:15] Karly Keiper: Uh,

[01:09:15] Michael Zarick: I don't think you're plugging your, your, uh, Butler classes.

[01:09:19] Karly Keiper: Come to Butler and take my FYS, um, which please, uh, I would love that. But, um, I do have a TikTok that I can, um, and I, I can get real rowdy on, so heads up about that. But, um, more than,

[01:09:34] Michael Zarick: more than you do as a Butler professor. Certainly. I

[01:09:36] Karly Keiper: absolutely, yeah. I really, I can really like, uh, it's, it's my personal one so I can be my full self there.

Not that I'm not, but, um, it's Karly Ann 51. Um, I talk a lot about

[01:09:49] Michael Zarick: KNN.

[01:09:49] Karly Keiper: Yeah. K-A-R-L-Y-A-N-N. Five one. Five one. Um, on TikTok, I talk a lot about, um, current events as it relates to disability, especially like with education, ways that you can and just disability related topics. Most of the time I also show my dog and we love going to Indianapolis Park, so we also do some park stuff.

Um, but yeah, feel free to follow me there. And then also, um, if you are looking for a place to donate, especially during this giving season, new

[01:10:20] Michael Zarick: job, new job.

[01:10:22] Karly Keiper: ACCESS Ability is the Center for Independent Living for Indiana. Um, that is a huge historical thing for the disability, uh, community. And so having a Center for Independent Living in Indiana is something really, really be proud of.

Um, the work that they do is fantastic. Um, no one has to provide documents to state that they have a disability. They can just say, I have a disability and receive services from them. Um, and so if you need a place to give. Know that your dollars are going straight to people who really could use support, um, and resources, and it is going to improve their lives directly.

So huge

[01:11:00] Michael Zarick: banger. Thanks so much for watching or listening to Third Space Indy. Uh, this has been Karly Keiper. I'm Michael Zarick. I've never done an outro like this before. Whatever. Love it. Uh, thirdspaceindy.com. You can find Third Space Indy, uh, at Third Space Indy on Instagram or at thirdspaceindy.com, where I write a weekly blog.

If you gimme your email, I'll send it to you on Mondays with the episode releasing. Thank you so much to city rising.org for sponsoring Third Space Indy, and as always, thank you to the local artist Jennasen for allowing me to use your music as my intro music. Thanks once again for listening and see you in the next one.

Goodbye. Bye.