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• Episode Summary

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Important links and mentions

• Hayley McGinley

• Native Bread

Third Space Indy is supported by City Rising

Episode Summary

Michael Zarick hosts Third Space Indy and interviews Hayley McGinley, founder of Native Bread, an Indianapolis bakery that is 100% gluten-free and free of top allergens. Hayley shares how, after discovering a gluten sensitivity in 2015 during a Whole30, she started an artisan gluten-free bakery in 2016, growing from home recipe testing and Facebook sales to scaling production through shared kitchens like ClusterTruck and Duos while working a full-time job. They discuss food restriction and exclusion, local dining favorites, and how Native Bread helps families feel welcomed.

00:00 Food Freedom at Native Bread
01:14 Welcome to Third Space Indy
02:14 Allergen Free Bakery Mission
04:43 Baking Roots and Family
06:38 Discovering Gluten Sensitivity
09:55 Starting the Bakery Idea
12:24 Humble Beginnings and Scaling
20:37 COVID Yeast Shortage Panic
22:07 Living with Food Restrictions
25:42 Favorite Local Spots and Global Eats
32:12 Outspoken Values as a Business
32:40 History Awakening
34:55 From BLM to Gaza
36:41 Anti BDS Laws
41:03 Pushback and Trolls
44:56 Social Media Truths
45:51 Small Actions Matter
46:52 Canned Questions Begin
47:59 North Mass Third Space
51:04 Polyamory and Safety
52:52 Lost Third Spaces
56:02 Procrastination and Decisions
01:01:56 Wrap Up and Where to Find
01:03:07 Final Thanks and Outro

Episode Transcript

Hayley McGinley

[00:00:00] Michael Zarick: How do you think about like, food restriction from a, like being restricted from spaces or mm-hmm.

Also, um, on the other end. Like how has it changed over time, especially since you discovered your own

Sensitivity.

[00:00:11] Hayley McGinley: one of my favorite things is when people come into Native Bread and they're like, what do you have that's gluten-free? And we're like, everything,

[00:00:21] Michael Zarick: you just go take your pick.

[00:00:23] Hayley McGinley: All of it.

And they're like, oh, really? Wow. Okay. Or they're like. What do you have that doesn't contain eggs? And they're like everything. and it's so sweet too when parents come in, come in with their kids, they're like little kids and they're like, honey, you can have anything that you want in here. And how the kids' face is just like light up and they're like, oh my God, I to, to be able to go somewhere where you don't have to like scour the menu and or you know, if you do scour the menu and there's like one thing on there that you can have and it's like a salad, which is almost always the, the only option

[00:01:14] Michael Zarick: Hello. My name is Michael Zarick and this is Third Space Indy. In 1989, a man named Ray Oldenberg wrote a book called The Great Good Place. In this book, he coined a term called The Third Place. This describes a place outside of your work and outside of your home, that you can go be with others, be in community, converse, and make friends.

Uh, so I've made it my goal to find people all over Indianapolis who are building these types of spaces. Today's guest, uh, is actually very close to me in a, in a weird roundabout way. Uh, my grandfather was a prolific baker.

[00:01:52] Hayley McGinley: Hmm.

[00:01:53] Michael Zarick: Uh,

[00:01:53] Hayley McGinley: called Wow.

[00:01:54] Michael Zarick: Cool. Your grandfather? Yeah. May he rest in peace.

[00:01:56] Hayley McGinley: Aw.

[00:01:57] Michael Zarick: Uh, and I also picked up baking.

Sorry. I also picked up baking, uh, for a while all, and for some reason people still associate me with it even though I don't do it regularly anymore. Um, but maybe that's just the way things go. Um, but today I'm excited to share that my guest is Hayley McGinley, the owner and founder of Native Bread, uh, here in Indianapolis.

This is a 100% gluten-free bakery.

[00:02:26] Hayley McGinley: Yep.

[00:02:27] Michael Zarick: Uh, along with some other stuff.

[00:02:28] Hayley McGinley: Yeah. Gluten-free and allergen-free. All the top allergens. So, milk, dairy, eggs, corn, soy, nuts. We also don't use any gums like Xanthan gum.

[00:02:37] Michael Zarick: Mm.

[00:02:38] Hayley McGinley: Uh so yeah, we're free of all the top allergens.

[00:02:40] Michael Zarick: And the reason I reached out is very simple 'cause you, you asked me before we sat down to talk if I had ever had your food, which I frankly would not have reached out if I hadn't.

Okay. Okay. I'm not that type of person. Uh, but this past week you, uh, released a new cookie. Which was like a mm-hmm. Cardamom. Oatmeal. Oatmeal, cardamom something, something. Yes.

[00:03:02] Hayley McGinley: Golden Raisin, cardamom Oatmeal. It's a mouthful.

[00:03:07] Michael Zarick: I purchased three Oh. At the Broad Ripple Farmer's Market and I ate two of them.

[00:03:13] Hayley McGinley: Oh my God.

[00:03:13] Michael Zarick: Uh, and I gave the other one to my wife graciously.

[00:03:16] Hayley McGinley: Yeah.

[00:03:16] Michael Zarick: Uh, but I loved it so much that I was like, I should talk to Hayley.

Aw,

[00:03:20] Hayley McGinley: thank you. They've been really well received.

[00:03:22] Michael Zarick: Um, because I, I do wanna be like, there is a lot of amazing bakers and bakeries here Yes. In Indianapolis. But I also wanted to talk to you because of the unique quirk of yours.

Are you the only are local gluten-free bakery that you know of?

[00:03:37] Hayley McGinley: There are others. Um, I believe we are the only like completely allergen-free and gluten-free bakery. There are other gluten-free bakeries, but they'll, they use some of those other allergens like nuts as common. Um. Or dairy or eggs.

[00:03:55] Michael Zarick: Yeah.

[00:03:56] Hayley McGinley: So yeah, we, as far as I know, so anyone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we're the only allergen-free and gluten-free bakery.

[00:04:02] Michael Zarick: So the reason I like the idea of talking to you specifically is because of that quirk of serving people who I think may be excluded from other spaces.

[00:04:14] Hayley McGinley: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:15] Michael Zarick: For reasons that they can't necessarily control or maybe choose to avoid, but that's, uh, maybe a different thing. Um, so I guess let's start off.

[00:04:25] Hayley McGinley: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:25] Michael Zarick: Like, can you tell me a little bit about yourself and Native Bread as you see it beyond just like the simple, like, I'm a gluten-free bakery,

[00:04:35] Hayley McGinley: um, a little bit about myself. How do you want me to go? Like, how far back are we talking?

[00:04:40] Michael Zarick: Uh, whatever you, whatever you feel in your heart.

[00:04:43] Hayley McGinley: Um, so my baking story is.

Starts with my grandmother, my dad's mother. She was a phenomenal baker and she raised eight children, um, preparing three meals a day for 10 people. So she was super good at, um, making things quickly and like making large batches of things very quickly. Um, and I, something I love about her too, she never used measuring cups or measuring spoons like she would just, she knew from doing it for so many years, so many times what, like a cup looked like.

So, or, you know, she knew that like a scoop of flour was like a half a cup of flour. And she just

[00:05:26] Michael Zarick: like, you see those, those old ladies making biscuits on TikTok that are like, ah, just throw it in there when it feels right.

[00:05:31] Hayley McGinley: Yeah. And you know, everyone's talked about how like baking is a science and that's true, especially with gluten-free and allergen-free baking.

Mm-hmm. But my grandma somehow was able to just like eyeball everything that she did and it came out amazing. Um, and so my dad was her oldest child and is her oldest child. And, uh, he learned how to cook and bake from her. And then I learned how to cook and bake from my dad. Um, he was the, like, he was a stay at home dad and cooked all of our meals and everything growing up.

So, um, yeah, and then baking was like never on my radar in terms of starting a business. Like, and being a business owner was never on my radar. Um,

[00:06:15] Michael Zarick: you and everyone else.

[00:06:16] Hayley McGinley: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I was, my parents definitely instilled the idea of like, you go to college and you get a degree and then after college you get a job.

And um, and that was my plan, uh, up until 2015. Um, I did go to college and, and all that. Um, and then in 20. Fif sometime in 2015, like late 2015 is when I discovered I had a gluten sensitivity. Um, I did a whole 30 diet, if you're familiar with that.

[00:06:46] Michael Zarick: What, um, when you say when you discovered it

[00:06:50] Hayley McGinley: Yeah.

[00:06:50] Michael Zarick: Is that you had lived your life like that or is it like, was it developed over time?

Does that make sense? The sensitivity?

[00:07:00] Hayley McGinley: Oh, so, well it's funny because once I discovered I had a sensitivity to gluten, I was able to like reflect back on my life Mm. And see the signs that were there. But I never, it never occurred to me that those were signs because it never occurred to me that I had a sensitivity to gluten.

Um, and after college I was experiencing some health issues and I was changing my diet all around to see if I could figure out what would work and what was causing problems. So I explored a vegan diet and a raw vegan diet, um, and kind of in more of like a Mediterranean diet. And then I discovered, um, the whole 30, which is essentially like a cleanse.

So you're eliminating a lot of things from your diet and you're only eating, like, you can have any fruits or vegetables, any nuts and any protein, like any meat or eggs. Um, but no, no dairy, no sugar, no grains of any kind. Even gluten-free grains, just no grains. Um, no beans, no alcohol. Um, so I did that for 30 days and then at the end of the 30, uh, at the end of that, um, I remember I ate pizza was the first thing that I had.

And I woke up the next morning and I felt awful. Like everything in my body was inflamed and swollen. It like hurt to make a fist, like closing my fingers were like so inflamed. Um, and I, this is so gross, but like my eyes were like crusted shut.

[00:08:30] Michael Zarick: You're like, I got pink eye for the pizza.

[00:08:32] Hayley McGinley: Yes. It was awful. I had to like pry the bumper.

Anyways, um. And so that was like the first indicator to me that like, okay, I think gluten might be an issue here. So I cut it outta my diet and, um, ever I've have felt so much better since then. I look better. I also, like, back then too, to touch back on like the health things I was experiencing. Um, one of the things I was experiencing was horrible acne.

Like to the point that I didn't wanna leave my house, I was like embarrassed to be seen in public. Um, so that was awful. And when I cut gluten outta my diet, my acne cleared up. Um, just like lots of benefits. So looking back as a child, every morning I woke up with a stomach ache. Mm.

[00:09:18] Michael Zarick: And

[00:09:18] Hayley McGinley: I remember like tell my mom is a, she's retired now, but she was a nurse.

And I remember talking to my mom about it and she didn't really have an answer. And I remember going to the doctor and being like, why do I have a stomach ache every morning when I wake up? Like, that's not normal. Um. But nothing was ever done, like tests were not done or anything. And so I have no way of knowing for sure, but my hunch is that it was all the gluten I was eating as a child.

[00:09:44] Michael Zarick: Yeah. '

[00:09:45] Hayley McGinley: cause you know, you grew up on like cereal and Pop-Tarts and bread, so

[00:09:51] Michael Zarick: on Pop Tart there

[00:09:52] Hayley McGinley: were those signs were there, I think.

[00:09:54] Michael Zarick: Yeah, definitely.

[00:09:54] Hayley McGinley: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:55] Michael Zarick: So how did you stumble into, like, making a gluten-free business? Yes. Was it just to serve yourself?

[00:10:02] Hayley McGinley: Um, I mean, that was a big part of it, honestly. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. And I think, like, I think a lot of businesses I, um, start there, you know, like there somebody notices that there's something missing for them and if no one else is doing it and then they're like, well, I'm gonna do it. No one's doing this, and I want it for myself, so surely other people want it too.

Um, but I was at a farmer's market.

[00:10:23] Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:24] Hayley McGinley: And was it

[00:10:25] Michael Zarick: here?

[00:10:26] Hayley McGinley: Yes, it was. Do you remember was it, was the.

[00:10:29] Michael Zarick: Ooh, on the spot.

[00:10:30] Hayley McGinley: I wanna say it was the, it was a winter farmer's market, and I think it was the, 'cause the win, the Indy winter farmer's market has moved locations, um, multiple times. And I think this might have been like one of the midweek ones.

I feel like it was inside the half leader back when it, if they're, are they, I don't even know if there's

[00:10:50] Michael Zarick: like, would sober.

[00:10:50] Hayley McGinley: Yeah. Like the SoBro winter market.

So I was at the, I think it was the, it was a winter farmer's market at Half Liter.

And this was shortly after I discovered I had a sensitivity to gluten and I had eliminated it from my diet. Um, and I was looking around and I saw these like amazing artisan loaves of bread from like Amelia's Bakery and Renee's Bakery was there. And this thought occurred to me almost like this light bulb moment of like, does Indianapolis have a artisan gluten-free bakery?

Um, 'cause I had never seen one or heard of one. So I went home and I Googled to see if I could find anything and there was nothing. Mm-hmm. And I, I couldn't believe it, honestly. I was like, as big of a, I mean, I, I know Indy's not like a huge city, but it's big enough that I thought there might be something like that and there wasn't.

Um, and like in that moment I was like, I'm gonna make one. I'm gonna start

[00:11:46] Michael Zarick: just gonna rip it.

[00:11:47] Hayley McGinley: Artisan gluten-free bakery. Yeah. Just gonna rip it. Yeah. And that was like late 2015. And then I launched, like officially, I registered with the government and got my like EIN number, um, April 4th, 2016. So our 10 year anniversary is right around the corner.

[00:12:02] Michael Zarick: That's crazy.

[00:12:03] Hayley McGinley: I know. How's that feel? Just crazy. It feels, is

[00:12:06] Michael Zarick: that like a chunk of your life? You're just like, oh my gosh.

[00:12:08] Hayley McGinley: It's been a huge, yeah. So I was 28 years old when I started Native Bread

[00:12:11] Michael Zarick: Uhhuh.

[00:12:12] Hayley McGinley: Um, and yeah, when I just reflect back on the past 10 years, it's, it, it's, it's been a journey.

[00:12:22] Michael Zarick: Uhhuh,

[00:12:22] Hayley McGinley: it ebbs and flows.

You know

[00:12:23] Michael Zarick: what? Because you have a location now. Mm-hmm. What is the early, like the fledgling, fledgling Native Bread look like? Are you just like, are you like cooking outta your doing cottage bakery stuff, just like cooking outta your house and farmers' market

[00:12:38] Hayley McGinley: that? Yeah, so I, um, I used to live in Rocky Ripple.

I was like renting this cute little, I loved that house so much, um, and Rocky Ripple. That place is magical. But anyways, I was, started all like developing all of my recipes out of that kitchen. Um, and then I would just, at that time I worked at a business, it's called The Playful Soul. It still exists, but it, it's in a different location now.

But, um, I was managing the playful soul and so I would bring in the stuff I was making at home and like let everybody at the playful soul taste it. And I was just getting feedback and, um, the feedback I was getting was amazing. Everybody was like, this is incredible.

[00:13:20] Michael Zarick: I have thoughts on that. I have a question.

[00:13:21] Hayley McGinley: Okay.

[00:13:22] Michael Zarick: So whenever you bake, this is my. This is true of all things in life. Hmm. Whenever you do something, people love it because you're doing it. Did you find that getting feedback was harder because it was always positive? Because I find when I make a loaf of bread, it's always the worst loaf of bread I've ever made in my life.

Okay. But you give, you give to someone else.

[00:13:42] Hayley McGinley: Amazing.

[00:13:42] Michael Zarick: Exactly. When you give it to someone else, they're like, thank you. Yeah. I love, I love bread. Um, did you find that it was hard?

[00:13:48] Hayley McGinley: Um, I try to like preface anytime I am developing a new recipe, I always preface by letting people know, like, this is still in the developmental stage and like, I want you to give me constructive criticism.

Mm-hmm. Like, genuinely, because I wanna make it as good as it can be. I don't remember if I was like saying all of that in those very early days.

[00:14:07] Michael Zarick: You're like, hand 'em a contract.

[00:14:09] Hayley McGinley: Yeah. Um, but yeah, because I, I really don't remember getting any negative feedback, honestly. Yeah. Maybe I did, but it was overwhelmingly positive.

Um. And I would also hope that, like my friends would be honest with me, but I understand that that doesn't always happen. 'cause it can be hard if you don't like something, you don't wanna like hurt your friends' feelings and stuff. Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, the feedback was really good and so it gave me the confidence to like take that next step.

Um, and I also, I, I eventually started like posting on Facebook when I had extra loaves of bread for sale. I started selling them for the first time. Um, and a friend of mine was friends with the man who owns Tyner Pond. Tyner Pond Farm, Chris Bagot,

[00:14:59] Michael Zarick: I don't

[00:14:59] Hayley McGinley: know that name, you know. Um, and so she set up a meeting for the three of us because he, he started Cluster Trek, maybe are familiar with

[00:15:07] Michael Zarick: Cluster Re.

Okay. I do know Cluster Trek.

[00:15:08] Hayley McGinley: Yeah. So the three of us sat down and Chris was so sweet and so supportive and he was like, well, why don't you just, in order for you to know if you can scale your business and take it to the next level, you have to. Be able to make bigger batches of bread and see if you can sell more bread so you can use our kitchen and use our ovens.

Mm-hmm. And, um, for free, he didn't even charge me. It was so generous. And, um, so I started doing that and it was like, it was hilarious. I wish I had like more photos or videos because this is my process was I would mix all the batches of flour at my home kitchen and store them in these like, you know, plastic tubs with lids and stuff.

[00:15:52] Michael Zarick: Like the classic like bakery tubs. Mm-hmm.

[00:15:54] Hayley McGinley: Yeah.

[00:15:55] Michael Zarick: Like the opaque ones

[00:15:56] Hayley McGinley: and then Yes, exactly. Yeah. Um, so I'd like pre-measure everything into these buckets, load 'em into my car, drive to cluster truck, unload everything into cluster truck. Um, and I had a space, a table, like probably this big, honestly, it was like a stainless steel table and that was the space that I had to like mix every batch.

Tray them up. So there is a photo of me, I'm like, thank God there's at least, there's like two pictures of my time there. Um, and one is a, 'cause I think I had like the forethought of like, I'm gonna wanna remember these very humble beginnings. Um, and yeah, so I had this tiny table that I prepared everything and then I was able to make larger batches of bread.

And then I would take all those home post on Facebook, like, I've got 10 sourdough loaves who wants some. And then like people would comment and be like, I'll take one, I'll take one. And then they would come to my house and pick up bread, or they would come to my work and pick it up for me there.

[00:16:49] Michael Zarick: Yeah.

[00:16:50] Hayley McGinley: And that was like the start of that.

Um, and then from cluster truck, I did like a shared space situation with that used formerly Duos. They closed, um, yeah, during COVID

[00:17:07] Michael Zarick: unfortunately, but like a shared kitchen.

[00:17:08] Hayley McGinley: Yeah. So Duos was out of, there's this really. Big brick building right behind the Children's Museum or by the Children's Museum, but that's where duo's was.

Mm-hmm. And they let me like, kind of rent space from them. And I had like one singular metal storage rack shelf that I could store supplies on.

[00:17:29] Michael Zarick: Yeah.

[00:17:30] Hayley McGinley: So I would order like all these bags of flour, store them at home in my home basement, take them to like, load them in my car every time I went to duos.

[00:17:41] Michael Zarick: I'm seeing themes here.

[00:17:43] Hayley McGinley: Yes. Lots of hauling and transporting and loading. Um, because I had this very small space to store things so I could only have like a set number of bags of flour. Um, 'cause we had all of our other equipment and you know, it was just, yeah, it was, it was a lot of work. When I look back on it, when I look back on that time of my life, I'm just like, I'm exhausted when I think about it.

I. Yeah. But I'm so grateful for Duos. They were so kind and generous to me as well, to like allow me to rent their space for very inexpensive. Um, and that I was there for like two years doing that process. Also, they, their restaurant was open until like two o'clock, so I had to wait until like three o'clock to even come in and start.

So I was there multiple days a week from like 3:00 PM to like midnight or later. Mm-hmm. Depending on however long it took to bake everything. And I had a full-time job at that time. On top of it working well. I mean, I worked every single day 'cause I was either at my full-time job or I was doing Native Bread stuff.

Um, and I just never had any downtime. It was, it was hard. It was a hard time.

[00:18:50] Michael Zarick: So, yeah, there's a, there's a bakery. So in like 2020 or 2021, um, there's a bakery in Arizona that started posting on YouTube. And I watched every one of their videos and it was sound like their origins are so similar to you.

Mm-hmm. They had worked out of a garage.

[00:19:08] Hayley McGinley: Amazing.

[00:19:09] Michael Zarick: Uh, literally. And like they had like this pretty small steam oven. They're like making, it's not gluten-free, but, you know. Right. It's like a small bakery.

[00:19:16] Hayley McGinley: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:17] Michael Zarick: And then, then like the record, the videos of them, like going to the farmer's market and all this stuff.

And now in 2026, I think they own like three locations. What in a, like they, I think they leveraged a lot of the YouTube viewership. Okay. Yeah. 'cause they were got fairly large, uh, to like get some fundraising and stuff. Yeah. But like, it was so interesting to see, and like, the guy, as far as I am in an understanding, it's also like a pretty decent guy.

Mm-hmm. And like he and his wife are like the main heads and like bringing in people from their community to like, teach them how to bake bread and like help also help them, you know, scale in terms of like their production. Yeah. But just like watching them move from like this. Frankly very dank, probably unsafe garage.

[00:19:58] Hayley McGinley: Right.

[00:19:58] Michael Zarick: Wouldn't be

[00:19:59] Hayley McGinley: health codes. To

[00:20:00] Michael Zarick: have three like really beautiful bakery locations was like really cool. I think

[00:20:05] Hayley McGinley: that is awesome.

[00:20:05] Michael Zarick: And just like, I was like, so I was like, I need to go to Arizona just to get some bread for this guy. Yeah. Which I, you know, if I'm ever, why would I want to go to Arizona? But um, if I am ever there, like that definitely is like a weird offshoot of something I wanna go do.

[00:20:21] Hayley McGinley: I think if you're lucky enough too to like create a YouTube channel that just blows up. Um, I, yeah. I don't know how people make that happen, but it sounds like they, they did something right with their algorithms or whatever and got lots of views. Yeah. So that's,

[00:20:36] Michael Zarick: um,

[00:20:36] Hayley McGinley: that's cool.

[00:20:37] Michael Zarick: I think there was also like a huge interest in sourdough.

[00:20:41] Hayley McGinley: Oh yeah.

[00:20:41] Michael Zarick: Making during like COVID,

[00:20:42] Hayley McGinley: during COVID, yes.

[00:20:43] Michael Zarick: People are like, I, I'm gonna bake bread 'cause I have nothing else to do with my life. Um,

[00:20:47] Hayley McGinley: I have a panic story about that. so during COVID um, everybody started baking bread at home and you couldn't find yeast anywhere.

[00:20:55] Michael Zarick: Oh my God.

[00:20:55] Hayley McGinley: Even like our suppliers that we have been ordering from for, you know, years, um, that we buy like bulk things of yeast and totally sold out.

And we were like running very low on the yeast that we had and I was like starting to freak out. I'm like, what am I gonna do? We're not gonna be able to make like half of our products

[00:21:13] Michael Zarick: interesting fallout mm-hmm.

Of local people.

[00:21:16] Hayley McGinley: And I was like, can people please stop baking bread at home? Like businesses are trying to survive out here.

Um,

[00:21:23] Michael Zarick: you're like, you're like, you're like getting on like Facebook Live. You're like, can you please gimme the yeast that you bought

in this seriously week? Seriously. Yeah. Even like Costco was sold out. 'cause they have like, um, four, whatever they, they sell, uh, the same yeast that we use. Um, and I was.

[00:21:39] Hayley McGinley: Able to find some at the, like last minute at Restaurant Depot, actually. So saved the day,

Because it was, that's funny. It was getting scary.

[00:21:49] Michael Zarick: Um, so I'm interested in your thoughts about, thank you for sharing about your my wife.

[00:21:58] Hayley McGinley: Yeah.

[00:21:58] Michael Zarick: Now I, I, every time I say things, my wife is like, Michael, you say the same things you say, like, what's on your heart?

And thank you for sharing. Um,

[00:22:06] Hayley McGinley: Aw.

[00:22:07] Michael Zarick: Uh, when I'm interested in your thoughts about like what it means to be food restricted mm-hmm. And like dealing with that. So for example, my wife is going to, or she plans to go to Paris for her birthday.

[00:22:27] Hayley McGinley: Okay.

[00:22:27] Michael Zarick: Or France.

[00:22:28] Hayley McGinley: That's fun.

[00:22:28] Michael Zarick: Paris is included. Mm-hmm. Um, but she's traveling with her friend who's vegan.

And when I think of Paris. France and I think of veganism.

[00:22:36] Hayley McGinley: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:37] Michael Zarick: There, there's a lack of overlap there. Mm-hmm. Because I feel like French food is very butter heavy.

[00:22:42] Hayley McGinley: Mm. Yeah.

[00:22:42] Michael Zarick: Um, and I think there's a challenge there to be overcome and an interesting, um, conundrum to like, view.

[00:22:49] Hayley McGinley: Yeah.

[00:22:50] Michael Zarick: How do you think about like, food restriction from a, like being restricted from spaces or mm-hmm.

Also, um, on the other end. Like how has it changed over time, especially since you discovered your own

[00:23:02] Hayley McGinley: mm-hmm.

[00:23:03] Michael Zarick: Sensitivity.

[00:23:06] Hayley McGinley: So, one of my favorite things is when people come into Native Bread and they're like, what do you have that's gluten-free? And we're like, everything,

[00:23:17] Michael Zarick: you just go take your, pick

[00:23:19] Hayley McGinley: all of it.

And they're like, oh, really? Wow. Okay. Or they're like. What do you have that doesn't contain eggs? And they're like everything. Um, and it's so sweet too when parents come in, come in with their kids, they're like little kids and they're like, honey, you can have anything that you want in here. And how the kids' face is just like light up and they're like, oh my God, I to, to be able to go somewhere where you don't have to like scour the menu and or you know, if you do scour the menu and there's like one thing on there that you can have and it's like a salad, which is almost always the, the only option

[00:23:56] Michael Zarick: I used to work, this is a terrible example because it is Texas Roadhouse, but I used to work at Texas Road House.

Mm-hmm. And when I worked there I was vegetarian.

[00:24:02] Hayley McGinley: Okay, that's hilarious.

[00:24:03] Michael Zarick: But

[00:24:04] Hayley McGinley: the timing.

[00:24:05] Michael Zarick: But on the menu they have veggie plate so you can order. But it's four sides.

[00:24:11] Hayley McGinley: Yes. Yep. The sides.

[00:24:13] Michael Zarick: Most of the sides at Texas Red House still include meat. Their green beans have bacon in them.

[00:24:18] Hayley McGinley: Yeah.

[00:24:19] Michael Zarick: They're baked beans I think are like.

They're

[00:24:22] Hayley McGinley: probably have pork in them or something. Yeah.

[00:24:23] Michael Zarick: The potatoes I think are coated in like pig fat, like that. There's so much.

[00:24:27] Hayley McGinley: Yeah,

[00:24:27] Michael Zarick: like when you talk about like scouring the like, I remember going because I was working there, so I was like, all I'm been eating is like rattlesnake bites and rolls.

[00:24:34] Hayley McGinley: Yeah.

[00:24:36] Michael Zarick: Um, just like talking about being food restricted and like looking for something for you also, like when you're vegetarian. This is my own ex only experience with it. When you, the le my least favorite thing in the world is you go, do you have veggie options and they point at the salad menu. I

[00:24:52] Hayley McGinley: know

[00:24:52] Michael Zarick: like that is

[00:24:53] Hayley McGinley: the salad menu or the sides Some

[00:24:55] Michael Zarick: BS bro.

[00:24:56] Hayley McGinley: I know.

[00:24:56] Michael Zarick: Um,

[00:24:57] Hayley McGinley: it really is. It's very disappointing. Um, and it's hard too when you're eating out with friends or family. Like for example, I eat very differently now than how I was raised. And so if I'm eating out with my parents, for example, it can be really challenging to find a restaurant that has things on the menu that we all are.

not just like able to eat, but excited to eat.

[00:25:18] Michael Zarick: Yeah.

[00:25:18] Hayley McGinley: Because I think that's the biggest thing about go, for me at least, like going out to a restaurant, I can find something anywhere on the menu, but I'm probably not gonna be excited about it. Yeah. And I wanna be ex, like, eating out is supposed to be like a fun, exciting experience.

And so I wanna be able to go to a restaurant and be like, oh my God, I am thrilled about the options on this menu. And that's what's really hard Yeah. To find. So are

[00:25:42] Michael Zarick: there any specific spots locally that light you up?

[00:25:45] Hayley McGinley: Oh my God, what a great question. Um, so I'm a big fan of restaurants that do seasonal rotating menus and they source as many of their ingredients as they can locally.

Mm-hmm. I know you can't do all of it locally. That's impossible. But as much as you can supporting local businesses and keeping that money in the community, um, and rotating your menu seasonally, I just think. Those types of restaurants, like the thought and the effort that you have to put into menu creation is so much more than restaurants that just have like the same set menu all the time.

Um, I think about Corridor, which is Nicole Taylor's Pasta. I've heard that name. It's been renamed to Corridor.

[00:26:30] Michael Zarick: Oh, okay. Um, it's on my list of places to go. Had not been, but

[00:26:32] Hayley McGinley: Oh my gosh. Yeah. You must, you must go. Um, they have every first Friday they do Apero. Mm-hmm. Which is like, um, I think originated prob in Italy.

If I'm Aper.

[00:26:44] Michael Zarick: TiVo is like a drink, like isn't it apertivo, like a digestive.

[00:26:49] Hayley McGinley: Yeah. I think you're, yes. Alcohol maybe. But the way that it AIF functions at corridor is like, yeah. Aperitif. Yes. Um, but they do. It's only from three to 6:00 PM mm-hmm. So it's like a shorter window. It's supposed like avo is like the drinks and little small bites you have before you go out for your main meal.

[00:27:06] Michael Zarick: Got it.

[00:27:06] Hayley McGinley: Um, and so they have these like delicious small plates that are $5 each and they're super, and

they,

[00:27:13] Michael Zarick: we love $5 deals.

[00:27:14] Hayley McGinley: Yes. And they give you really large portions for $5. You're like, this is incredible. Um, but I love Corridor, uh, they don't always have like a ton of gluten-free options, but they always have some, like one other, um, it's co-owned by, uh, Logan and Aaron and Logan.

It's a very skilled vegan baker and cook and all of that. So they always have a vegan option, if not more than one. Um, and. You can always find gluten-free things there.

[00:27:46] Michael Zarick: I feel like pasta, is it pasta? Sorry. Mm-hmm. Total aside.

[00:27:48] Hayley McGinley: Yeah,

[00:27:49] Michael Zarick: because it's made with semolina primarily. That would be gluten-free, right?

[00:27:51] Hayley McGinley: Or no?

No. Selina's nuts. That's wheat. So you're

[00:27:55] Michael Zarick: so right. Yeah. I, I'm like making semolina like corn.

[00:27:58] Hayley McGinley: Oh, no. Like,

[00:27:59] Michael Zarick: I'm like combined. That's, you're right. I'm stupid.

[00:28:01] Hayley McGinley: No, you're not. No, it's, it's totally a fair question. Um, yeah. Wheat, barley, and rye are the three grains that contain gluten. Okay. And semolina is just like a variety of wheat.

[00:28:10] Michael Zarick: Oh, interesting.

[00:28:11] Hayley McGinley: Um, oh,

[00:28:11] Michael Zarick: Selina wheat. That makes sense.

[00:28:13] Hayley McGinley: Yes. Yes.

[00:28:14] Michael Zarick: Wow.

[00:28:15] Hayley McGinley: Um, but I love Corridor. I love, uh, Tinker Street, um, which I won at the last Oh, you

[00:28:21] Michael Zarick: did, did

[00:28:21] Hayley McGinley: you go? Yeah, I won the gift card.

[00:28:23] Michael Zarick: We went on Friday.

[00:28:24] Hayley McGinley: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:24] Michael Zarick: I, I can't, I, I've been to Tinker Street twice. This is a total admission. I've been to Tinker Street twice.

I have not paid either time.

[00:28:32] Hayley McGinley: Oh, no kidding.

[00:28:33] Michael Zarick: I mean, we tipped the first time. Mm-hmm. Because Jordan was kind enough to cover our meal. 'cause he, like, I was unemployed at the time and he was like, I expressed to him that I was really interested in coming. But I didn't have a job, Uhhuh. And he is like, just come in.

I was like, oh, okay. Thank you. Woohoo. Uh, yeah.

[00:28:48] Hayley McGinley: So did you get like gift cards or something?

[00:28:50] Michael Zarick: Uh, so I won two of the giveaways at Patrick's thing.

[00:28:54] Hayley McGinley: Oh, nice. Okay.

[00:28:55] Michael Zarick: Because one time there was like three people Uhhuh and one the other time I was the only person.

[00:29:00] Hayley McGinley: Okay. No kidding. What?

[00:29:02] Michael Zarick: Jourdan was like, you can't do this to me anymore.

[00:29:05] Hayley McGinley: Oh man. Well, I'm glad there's

[00:29:07] Michael Zarick: Jourdan Jordan Ivory manager at Tin Sheet.

[00:29:09] Hayley McGinley: Okay. That's the manager.

[00:29:10] Michael Zarick: Yeah.

[00:29:10] Hayley McGinley: Yeah. I love what they do there. And then I'll also say just like in general, the ethnic restaurant food scene here is incredible. And if you go to like a Thai restaurant or Ethiopian mm-hmm. Um, or I don't know, you know, like you name it, like the, the ethnic food scene is awesome and it's so much easier to find gluten-free options.

[00:29:33] Michael Zarick: What's the Ethiopian bread called?

[00:29:35] Hayley McGinley: Injera is

[00:29:35] Michael Zarick: in Jura. Gluten-free?

[00:29:38] Hayley McGinley: Yes. Oh.

[00:29:39] Michael Zarick: I

[00:29:39] Hayley McGinley: don't know if it's like. 100. Like I don't know if, um, because

[00:29:42] Michael Zarick: it's like a flatbread. That makes sense.

[00:29:43] Hayley McGinley: Yes. It's a flatbread, it's made with Teff flour, which is a gluten-free grain. Mm-hmm. Um, and we use teff flour in our seeded bowl.

It gives it like a darker color. Um, but I don't know. I think like traditionally it's a gluten-free flatbread. Um, but I'm honestly not sure if some of the restaurants here incorporate any wheat flour into it. Mm-hmm. I've never asked, but yeah. Um, it

[00:30:03] Michael Zarick: hasn't stopped you yet. The

[00:30:04] Hayley McGinley: jar is delicious. It hasn't stopped.

So I don't have celiac disease. Mm-hmm. So I can eat gluten, but if I eat it consistently, if I were to like eat it every day of my life, I would feel like

[00:30:14] Michael Zarick: you'd get in crusty eyes,

[00:30:15] Hayley McGinley: I'd feel awful. I'd have crust, I'd be so inflamed. Um, also something I forgot to mention, like when I was talking about the, like, the signs that, you know, were telling me that I had, there was something going on.

My face was always like puffy and swollen. And I look back at photos of me and I'm just like, who is that? I'm like covered and at me and everything's like puffy and. Oh. So I had so many issues and, um, yeah, I, I eliminated a gluten and like all of that went away.

[00:30:43] Michael Zarick: That's so cool.

[00:30:43] Hayley McGinley: But Ethiopian food is amazing.

Oh yeah. So it's one of my favorites.

[00:30:47] Michael Zarick: There's a place in Louisville, I think it's called Queen of Sheba. Mm-hmm.

[00:30:51] Hayley McGinley: It

[00:30:51] Michael Zarick: was the first time I ever had, uh, actually I was talking about Dungeons and Dragons.

[00:30:54] Hayley McGinley: Okay.

[00:30:55] Michael Zarick: My first time I ever going was during that trip. Yes. Played Dungeons and Dragons. It was like mind blowingly delicious.

I, yeah. And I don't think people know that, but also like there's a large Ethiopian population. I haven't been to any, uh, of our restaurants here yet. Oh, okay. But there's a fairly large Ethiopian population here in Indianapolis. Mm-hmm. And a lot of them live on the west side. Yep. So there's like a lot of,

[00:31:15] Hayley McGinley: well, the west side has the international marketplace.

Right. And that's just, I mean that's, and that's

[00:31:19] Michael Zarick: where they all

[00:31:19] Hayley McGinley: ares the place to go. Yeah. Or there's Axum, which is downtown and that's amazing. Or Abyssinia, if I'm saying that Right. I don't know. But that's on the west side.

[00:31:27] Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:29] Hayley McGinley: Um, and I've been to both and like, both are just incredible.

[00:31:31] Michael Zarick: Yeah. Huge fan. I.

Need to get out more.

[00:31:34] Hayley McGinley: So my parents and I, we had dinner recently at, um, it's called Incredible India, which is like kind of Castleton ish side of town. Um, and that place was incredible too. So I'm just, I love supporting minority owned businesses and I just love eating foods from all around the world.

They're so much more exciting than like American food.

[00:31:57] Michael Zarick: Yeah. What is American food? I

[00:31:59] Hayley McGinley: know, like, whatever that means.

[00:32:00] Michael Zarick: Burgers,

[00:32:00] Hayley McGinley: I don't know. Hot dogs.

[00:32:02] Michael Zarick: Hot dog burger.

[00:32:02] Hayley McGinley: Yeah. Hot dogs and burgers. It's very boring.

[00:32:06] Michael Zarick: Hey, I love a good hot dog and a good burger, but, you know.

[00:32:08] Hayley McGinley: Right.

[00:32:08] Michael Zarick: Um,

easy transition since you just mentioned it, what does it mean? Like, one of the other reasons I reached out to you is because you are pretty outspoken as a business owner on the things that you believe, which is a very common theme of this podcast. Business owners who are outspoken.

[00:32:26] Hayley McGinley: Yeah. I love that.

[00:32:27] Michael Zarick: Um.

At what point were you, or maybe you were always like this, I've only known you for a short amount of time.

[00:32:34] Hayley McGinley: Yeah.

[00:32:35] Michael Zarick: Um, at what point were you like, ah, f it, it's time, it's time to ball. I don't know.

[00:32:40] Hayley McGinley: Um, I, I feel like I started like the first kind of more political issues, social justice issues I started posting about would've been related to, um, indigenous peoples.

Like, um, I'm very, very passionate and interested in US history, specifically. I love history in general. But once I started really unpacking and educating myself on the history of this country

[00:33:10] Michael Zarick: Yeah.

[00:33:11] Hayley McGinley: Because we're not taught factual information in school.

[00:33:13] Michael Zarick: A hundred percent.

[00:33:14] Hayley McGinley: Um, once I started learning that, I was like, oh man, I had, I had no idea.

And so I went down this like rabbit hole, um. And I'm really grateful for that because I feel I'm much more informed and I still have so much to learn. Um, but yeah, it just, it feels empowering to like, know the truth about our history because it helps inform how I live my life now.

[00:33:44] Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:45] Hayley McGinley: Um, and I just can't, like, I can't turn a blind eye to it.

It's like once you learn something, you can never unlearn that.

[00:33:55] Michael Zarick: Oh, I always say the worst thing I ever did was become more worldly. Mm.

[00:33:59] Hayley McGinley: Right.

[00:33:59] Michael Zarick: It's, it's the worst thing you can do for your mental health.

[00:34:01] Hayley McGinley: Right. Ignorance really is bliss. That's mean, that's a saying for a reason. Yeah. But I wouldn't give it up for anything.

I mean, I do feel like I'm carrying a much heavier mental load from the weight of everything happening. Currently around the world and in this country. And also just everything I've learned about our history and like, I don't know, I think you just move through the world differently when you're educated.

And you know, more about where we've come from and like, why are things the way they are today? And the only way to really figure that out is to look into the past and see where we've come from. Yeah. And what we've done as a nation and continue to do. Um, so I just felt like, I felt like I was, I couldn't believe all of these things that I was learning.

And I was like, so many people don't know these things either. So much of our history is just hidden from, from us. Um, and so I would just start posting things about like, November is Native American History Month, so I started posting things, um, about Native American history and uh, and then like Black History Month is February.

So I, this was like years back, I was starting to do stuff about that. And then George Floyd was murdered and the whole Black Lives Matter movement exploded across the nation. And so I started posting about that. And then fast forward to the genocide that Israel is committing against Palestinians and everything happening in, in Gaza.

And I just, I wasn't like, I haven't seen anybody, I haven't seen like businesses in Indianapolis speaking out about that. I've seen tons of businesses speaking out against ICE. Mm-hmm. Which is awesome. Mm-hmm. And great to see. I haven't seen other outside of like, uh, Flanner Farms. Mm-hmm. They're amazing.

Nick,

[00:35:57] Michael Zarick: the nickel,

[00:35:58] Hayley McGinley: what's that?

[00:35:59] Michael Zarick: Nickel? The, he's the oh guy who runs Flanner Farms.

[00:36:02] Hayley McGinley: Okay. Oh, cool. Yeah, I don't, I've never met him. Yeah, great guy.

[00:36:06] Michael Zarick: Um,

[00:36:06] Hayley McGinley: but there are a few like local spaces and businesses that are very outspoken and always have been, and like their business model is like founded on that. But outside of that, I really.

I haven't have you. I don't feel

[00:36:18] Michael Zarick: like there's a couple, uh, okay. Like Alexa from Alley Cat Ceramics and

[00:36:22] Hayley McGinley: Okay, great.

[00:36:23] Michael Zarick: But not, I, I agree that it's not as, um, widely thought of.

[00:36:28] Hayley McGinley: Yeah. And I find that so interesting. Like, it feels like it's so easy for businesses to speak out against ICE. Mm-hmm. But when it comes to speaking out against genocide in Palestine mm-hmm.

And Gaza, I haven't seen that as much.

[00:36:41] Michael Zarick: I don't know if this is true in Indiana, but one of the reasons I have not, uh, made an LLC for this podcast

[00:36:55] Hayley McGinley: mm-hmm.

[00:36:56] Michael Zarick: Is one, I don't care, but two, uh, I believe in Texas and some other states.

[00:37:02] Hayley McGinley: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:02] Michael Zarick: It is illegal for businesses to speak out against Palestine. Like there is legislation.

Whoa. Yeah.

[00:37:07] Hayley McGinley: I did not know that.

[00:37:08] Michael Zarick: Um, I, I don't know if Indiana has legislation like that.

I wanted to do a quick cut in here because I was also interested in the factual ness of my statement here. Um, so,

uh, 37 states have anti BDS laws, which stands for boycott, divest, and sanction, meaning that.

anti BDS laws effectively seek to retaliate against people in organizations who boycott, uh, Israel and affiliated sort of groups. Uh, and then also in 2025, right after Donald Trump was elected for his second term, there was legislation passed. Uh, expanding the definition of antisemitism, um, which many of those expanded definitions also include criticisms of Israel.

Um, so yeah, cutting back.

Um,

[00:38:06] Hayley McGinley: well, if they do, no one's come knocking on my door.

[00:38:09] Michael Zarick: Um, which

[00:38:09] Hayley McGinley: is good because I've been speaking

[00:38:11] Michael Zarick: about Yeah. I don't know how much, how much that is enforced.

[00:38:13] Hayley McGinley: Yeah.

[00:38:13] Michael Zarick: It's sort of, you have probably someone has to have a vendetta against you in most cases.

Yeah. Um, but uh, there is stuff like that where there is a level of like weirdness

[00:38:24] Hayley McGinley: Yeah.

[00:38:24] Michael Zarick: Uh, in the US about our relationship to a different country mm-hmm. That almost no other country receives that treatment.

[00:38:33] Hayley McGinley: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:34] Michael Zarick: Um, which is a very interesting, um, thing.

[00:38:38] Hayley McGinley: Yeah. So that's a, a whole nother thing I've been educating myself on is like the, the United States' history with Israel.

Like, how do we get where we are today? I'm, I don't know. I'm someone, I'm very,

[00:38:50] Michael Zarick: it's, it's Britain's fault. I

[00:38:50] Hayley McGinley: wanna know the roots of things, you know, like mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, yes, and there's, I'm currently reading the book, the a Hundred Years War on Palestine. Have you read that?

[00:39:00] Michael Zarick: I've not, but I'm familiar.

[00:39:01] Hayley McGinley: It's, yeah.

I

[00:39:01] Michael Zarick: think I have it in my, there's, it's very informative. Okay. Listen. Hayley, I have a stack of books in my house.

[00:39:06] Hayley McGinley: Same

[00:39:07] Michael Zarick: one of my goals for the year. I said, I'm not spending money on books. Mm-hmm. There's no money spending, I know. Happening on books because I always go to the bookstore. I go, oh, that book looks lovely.

[00:39:16] Hayley McGinley: Right? Same.

[00:39:17] Michael Zarick: And then it goes on the stack. Mm-hmm. So I gotta stop spending money and read the books.

[00:39:21] Hayley McGinley: I feel you. I feel you. So hard because I'm in the same boat. Um, yeah. It's hard. It's hard. We have amazing bookstores too, all around Indianapolis, and I wanna support them and Yep. Every

[00:39:30] Michael Zarick: time I sell sneak preview of a future episode, though.

Don't,

[00:39:33] Hayley McGinley: yeah.

[00:39:34] Michael Zarick: Um, but I personally will not be spending money at this time. Good

[00:39:39] Hayley McGinley: for you. That's

[00:39:40] Michael Zarick: great. If you wanna spend money on the local bookstores, please do.

[00:39:42] Hayley McGinley: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:43] Michael Zarick: Yeah. I need to be better about that, but yes, I

[00:39:45] Hayley McGinley: know it's hard.

[00:39:45] Michael Zarick: So you're reading the a Hundred Years War.

[00:39:47] Hayley McGinley: Yes. And it's just, it's, I don't know, it's so fascinating and it's so informative and, um, it's another one of those things that like, so much of this history has just been hidden from us.

And, you know, almost always if like, if something is happening. And we're like, wow, this is crazy. Why is it happening? There's a reason. And I wanna, I wanna know why. I wanna know the root of that. So I just like to figure it out. Mm-hmm. Um, and then like, who knows if there's a law in Indiana that says businesses can't speak out against Israel, I have no idea if there is, I should look into that, but

[00:40:23] Michael Zarick: you should probably look into that.

[00:40:24] Hayley McGinley: Um, nothing has happened.

[00:40:26] Michael Zarick: I don't think Indiana is included, but there are definitely a lot of, especially in like the Bible belt. Mm-hmm. Uh, Texas, I can say Texas for sure.

[00:40:33] Hayley McGinley: That's so wild.

[00:40:34] Michael Zarick: Uh, it's really odd law.

[00:40:37] Hayley McGinley: Yeah. And those are the things that when you figure that out, don't you just wanna ask yourself questions like, why, why is this banned?

Or why is this illegal? That doesn't make any sense. Mm-hmm. So there's a reason, and when you start to figure that out, you're just like, holy cow, how can you stay quiet about something that's so bad?

[00:40:58] Michael Zarick: Yeah.

[00:40:58] Hayley McGinley: Um, so yeah, I just, I feel like it was so fascinating to me, the. Um, people that I did get pushback from when I, for the first time spoke out publicly with my support of Palestine, um, and donating to organizations that are like on the ground in Gaza, uh, the overwhelming response was positive.

People were like, thank you so much for speaking up. Like this is amazing. Um, but there were like a small group of people that were like, you're never getting my business again. And

[00:41:27] Michael Zarick: yeah,

[00:41:28] Hayley McGinley: keep it. So many people, not so many people, but like a handful of people were like, don't make, you know, not everything has to be political.

And I'm like, dude, everything is political. Everything is political. Um, so anyways, and then ironically, uh, the people, I would like look these people up 'cause you can see their names. They're like sending me an email or, you know, commenting on Instagram and I, I can see who you are. It's so crazy to me how people will like publicly say something and it's like, it's out there for all the world to see.

[00:42:01] Michael Zarick: I'd rather them do it publicly than anonymously, which a lot of people do, so,

[00:42:05] Hayley McGinley: yeah, that's true. Uh, but like some of these people that were saying they were never going to support my business again, I would look them up and had never purchased and they had never purchased anything. And I'm like, cool.

You're just

[00:42:16] Michael Zarick: Absolute classic

[00:42:17] Hayley McGinley: Yeah. Absolute class. I'm sure that happens all the time. There's so many. And I also had to remind myself like a lot of these people are literal trolls and they're not real. And, but there are a lot of real people that feel that way. And it's to me, like if you can witness a genocide unfolding before your eyes and still stand with Israel, then you just don't know enough about what's going on and you just need to be educated.

It's hard for me to believe that like once someone's fully educated on something and really understands what's happening Yeah. That they would still side with.

[00:42:52] Michael Zarick: I don't consider myself fully educated, but I will say it was very easy for me to, to make a decision on this. Yeah. In like 2019, so far.

Before October 7th, I was having a conversation. I've told this story before in, in short.

[00:43:06] Hayley McGinley: Yeah.

[00:43:06] Michael Zarick: Uh, far before October 7th, I remember like being on a Discord call with, uh, my dungeon master. Mm-hmm. And, uh, another guy, um, and the other guy whose name is also Michael

[00:43:21] Hayley McGinley: mm-hmm.

[00:43:22] Michael Zarick: Um, said like, there's, so, there's like so few things in the world that are so black and white, except for one thing, the, the conflict in Palestine and Israel.

And I was like, and then, uh, Gary, my dungeon master, like, said what? He was like that. He's like, what are you? He's like, he goes, yes, I agree, but I'm not sure what you're saying. Like, are you, like, what are you saying?

[00:43:46] Hayley McGinley: Oh, in

[00:43:46] Michael Zarick: black and white.

[00:43:47] Hayley McGinley: Right?

[00:43:48] Michael Zarick: And then he goes, oh. And then Michael goes, oh, obviously. Israel is like in the right, and I had no knowledge of this conflict at this time.

Mm-hmm. Which as you say, like we are not taught these things.

[00:43:57] Hayley McGinley: Right. Yeah.

[00:43:58] Michael Zarick: I was like, I cannot speak on this. I was like, let me go. Right. Look some stuff up. And I remember watching, uh, just like three, four YouTube videos from a variety of different things and being like, this is a, this seems pretty, um, not good.

Yeah.

[00:44:20] Hayley McGinley: It's not hard to find the inform when when you look for it, you can find it. Yeah. It's all there.

[00:44:25] Michael Zarick: But

[00:44:26] Hayley McGinley: yeah. And

[00:44:26] Michael Zarick: so just like having that knowledge and just like, and then seeing the way that post October 7th people have come into the knowledge that I had prior to then

[00:44:38] Hayley McGinley: mm-hmm.

[00:44:39] Michael Zarick: Is pretty, um, I think cool.

[00:44:44] Hayley McGinley: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:44:45] Michael Zarick: I would call it cool. Mm-hmm. I think it's good that people are,

[00:44:47] Hayley McGinley: are, it is really

[00:44:47] Michael Zarick: are discovering that, um. Our, our, um, actions across the ocean are not mm-hmm. Good.

[00:44:55] Hayley McGinley: Yeah. Honestly, it's one of, I, I mean, I have a lot of issues with social media, but one of the things I do love about it is the ability to transmit information all across the globe very quickly.

And, you know, luckily because of social media, truly it's because of social media that so many of us even know what's going on between Israel and Palestine.

[00:45:18] Michael Zarick: Yeah.

[00:45:18] Hayley McGinley: Um, 'cause I had no idea prior to October 7th. Mm-hmm. You know, I was completely unaware and it is mind blowing to me. I I try not to give myself a hard time.

'cause I'm like, how did I not know this? Yeah. But I didn't.

[00:45:33] Michael Zarick: I no clue. There's a, um, it's, I will say very briefly that that's not the only thing, you know, there's so many Yes,

[00:45:40] Hayley McGinley: I know.

[00:45:41] Michael Zarick: Um, activities. Um, but thank you. I just wanna thank you for being the business owner that you are. Um,

[00:45:47] Hayley McGinley: oh, thank you. I

[00:45:48] Michael Zarick: think it's very.

That's very, that's, you know, part

[00:45:50] Hayley McGinley: of the

reason

[00:45:50] Michael Zarick: you,

[00:45:51] Hayley McGinley: by the way, I can, I feel like I'm like a small, you know, I'm like a drop of water in the ocean, but I think about like, what do I have control over? Mm-hmm. A lot of us can look at what's happening around the globe and feel like helpless. Yeah. Like, there's nothing I can do, but there's always something that you can do.

Even if it's like, you know, for me, just donating a percentage of my proceeds to like pick a nonprofit, there's so many to choose from. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, that is in my control. I can do that. I get to choose to like donate my proceeds

[00:46:20] Michael Zarick: Yeah.

[00:46:20] Hayley McGinley: To these organizations.

[00:46:21] Michael Zarick: And as our mutual friend, he's my friend.

Mm-hmm. You consider him a friend? Patrick Armstrong?

[00:46:28] Hayley McGinley: Well, I have, I guess we're like friendly, but I, I've only met him like the two times at Oh really? The,

[00:46:34] Michael Zarick: oh yeah. That's funny. Yeah. Um, our mutual associate, Patrick Armstrong, um, said yesterday and he says often. Small actions do not equal small impact. So I think that is Yes, I

[00:46:45] Hayley McGinley: love

[00:46:45] Michael Zarick: that.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. So, uh, don't feel like you are having no impact with that. Um, anyways,

[00:46:51] Hayley McGinley: thank you.

[00:46:52] Michael Zarick: Let's move on to what I call the canned questions.

[00:46:54] Hayley McGinley: Oh boy.

[00:46:57] Michael Zarick: Okay. I have to read.

[00:46:58] Hayley McGinley: Okay.

[00:46:59] Michael Zarick: Third Space Indy is sponsored by cityrising.org.

My good friend, mark Lata, uh, runs a nonprofit consultancy called City Rising. And City Rising is a social impact studio that leads and supports innovative projects that strengthen, celebrate and repair people and places. So if you're a people or you're the leader of a place and you're interested in improving your lived or built environment, reach out to me or reach out to Mark Latta at cityrising.org and we will hook you up anyways.

[00:47:28] Hayley McGinley: That sounds awesome.

[00:47:30] Michael Zarick: He does good work. Uh, he's also a good friend.

[00:47:33] Hayley McGinley: Oh,

[00:47:33] Michael Zarick: uh.

[00:47:35] Hayley McGinley: How fun to get to partner with friends on something like this. It,

[00:47:39] Michael Zarick: I have no other, uh, I would not have it any other way. Mm-hmm. That's how I would phrase it.

Mm-hmm.

[00:47:45] Hayley McGinley: Yeah.

[00:47:47] Michael Zarick: Mark has sponsored a question, which is, what is a Third Space to you?

[00:47:52] Hayley McGinley: What is it to me? Or like,

[00:47:54] Michael Zarick: you can take it however you like.

[00:47:55] Hayley McGinley: Okay. Well, okay. Yeah. I, I, yes, I have a, I do have an answer. Um, you're probably familiar with North Mass Boulder.

[00:48:02] Michael Zarick: Oh yeah. Okay. I'm glad you brought that. I actually meant to bring this up, so I'm interested.

[00:48:05] Hayley McGinley: Oh, okay. Um, so that is my Third Space, and I have been going there since shortly after they opened, like, I don't know, four or five years ago.

Um, and that space, that place has literally changed my life, which is like a really big thing to say, but when I look at my life, there's like my life pre North Mass Boulder, and my life post North Mass Boulder. Um, but. Just the community aspect. Like that place, it's a gym, it's a restaurant, it's a coworking space, it's a yoga studio, it's all of these things.

But when I think about like the essence of North Mass Boulder is, it's a community gathering space. It's a third place. Um, it's like the kind of place where I go, I don't have to like text my friends beforehand to be like, Hey, are you gonna be at North Mass? Like, let's get together and hang out, or let's work out.

I just show up and I see my friends. It's like we're all just there. Um, so it's my favorite place to go outside of my home and Native Bread

[00:49:09] Michael Zarick: podcast. The essence of a Third Space is that actually, uh, it's on the Instagram, but if you ever wanna know, is that it is a consistent place that you're always welcome.

That conversation is the main activity.

[00:49:24] Hayley McGinley: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:25] Michael Zarick: And that, uh, did I. Did I say consistent? Yeah. Basically it's always there.

[00:49:31] Hayley McGinley: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:32] Michael Zarick: Uh, and I think also this is, I love that you said that because so many places it's not their fault. Mm-hmm. That this way, so many places fail to be a place where you can just go mm-hmm.

Without planning.

[00:49:44] Hayley McGinley: Yes. Um,

[00:49:45] Michael Zarick: that's an infrastructure issue.

[00:49:46] Hayley McGinley: It's hard to, that's an

[00:49:47] Michael Zarick: infrastructure issue. Um, but, um, I love that you said that because I think you are so correct in that. To me, it's important that you, again, it's not always possible, but if you were able to show up to a place unplanned Unscheduled. And know that you're welcome, I think that says a lot.

[00:50:10] Hayley McGinley: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I've, I've never experienced that before in my life until North Mass Boulder opened. Um. So, yeah, I'm incredibly grateful. And it's funny you mentioned about, uh, a Third Space is where like conversation is kind of the, the focal point of it.

Um, there's like a running joke in the climbing community and like bouldering community, like 90% of bouldering is just laying around on the crash pads talking with your friends.

[00:50:36] Michael Zarick: And that's, and because it's the most exhausting thing you can do other than swimming, like, it's like so hard.

[00:50:41] Hayley McGinley: It's, it's talent.

Yeah. It's challenging, but, you know, they have all levels and every Yeah, every, if you're a beginner, you're gonna be fine. If you're advanced. Yeah. But, um, I do spend a lot of my time just talking while I'm there and I love it. I get my, all of my, my like social needs are met by going there.

[00:51:00] Michael Zarick: I love that.

[00:51:01] Hayley McGinley: Yeah.

[00:51:01] Michael Zarick: Thank you. Mm-hmm. Uh. Can I ask about what I texted you about the other day?

[00:51:07] Hayley McGinley: Yeah. What was it?

[00:51:07] Michael Zarick: Is is, is polyamory a thing at North Mass Boulder?

[00:51:11] Hayley McGinley: Oh my God. There's also a running joke about that at, at Northman Boulder. Is

[00:51:15] Michael Zarick: it a joke? I don't know.

[00:51:17] Hayley McGinley: I mean, I think too, just like polyamory in general is something that is more visible in society nowadays.

Mm. It's always existed

[00:51:29] Michael Zarick: human, un untapped community conversation. I need to have.

[00:51:31] Hayley McGinley: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:32] Michael Zarick: What, what's going on.

[00:51:33] Hayley McGinley: Yeah. And I think like the younger generations have really done a good job of like, I don't know, making the, I don't even know how to say it. It's like the LGBT community is just, it's just more visible now.

Like it's always been there. Mm-hmm. But it's because of these younger generations, um, being brave and being themselves and being like unashamed and unabashedly like authentic. It's allowed, it's like given all of us permission to feel like I can show up a authentically as myself too. And so I think we're just, it's always been there, but I think we just see it more now, if that makes sense.

Um, and I think a space like North Mass Boulder, that is a super safe space. Like everybody there is, everyone's welcome there and everyone is safe there no matter who you are, how you show up. Um, and so I think it just fosters, it's an environment that fosters safety and authenticity. So I think it attracts people who are living their authentic lives too.

'cause they, they know that they're gonna be accepted there.

[00:52:41] Michael Zarick: Hmm. That makes sense. Great answer. I was really interested. I've heard that like so many times. I was like, what is going on over here? Mm-hmm. Um,

uh, follow up question to the previous question. Not, not the polyamory question, the sponsored question. Mm-hmm. What is a Third Space or place for you? That has existed previously. That doesn't any longer.

[00:53:06] Hayley McGinley: I was wondering if you were gonna ask this, 'cause I saw that question on

[00:53:09] Michael Zarick: a ask it every time.

[00:53:09] Hayley McGinley: Um, you, you ask it every time.

Um, well, and I just said too, like I've never experienced like what I have with North Mass. I've never experienced that before.

Is it bad if I don't have a thing? actually it would be, well, I don't know if it counts 'cause it was also my job, but I mentioned I used to work at the Playful Soul and I managed it and Okay. So I guess I kind of had, I have had something similar to what North Mass Boulder has provided me now, but it just looked very different. Mm-hmm. Um, but the playful soul.

Uh, when I was managing it, um, it was, it's a, it, it was a spiritual boutique. So they had, we sold like all these products like crystals and sage and body care things and books and tarot decks and all that. And it was an event space with yoga classes and um, meditation classes and things like that. And I worked there for three years.

And that time of my life, like so many people, 'cause again, a, a certain kind of space attracts a certain kind of person. And the playful soul attracted spiritually minded people. You know, it was like a place for the spiritual community to come to. Um, and that was a time of my life when I really needed that.

And I met some amazing people and I would just go to work. But like all day while I was working, like my literal friends and my community were coming in and hanging out and, um. So it's not technically a Third Space 'cause it was my job, but it felt that way too. Yeah. So

[00:54:43] Michael Zarick: I, it is a difficult, uh, thing 'cause I think a lot of people find friends and community within their work.

[00:54:50] Hayley McGinley: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:51] Michael Zarick: But also at, at the same time, like there is often the extension. It's like, oh, you can carry that relationship outside of the workplace too. Yes. Uh, and I think that is maybe the, the crux of it also is like just finding your, your

[00:55:10] Hayley McGinley: mm-hmm.

[00:55:11] Michael Zarick: It, it, it's hard to separate that 'cause you know, it's still work, but it's also like you can, like I said, like carry that relationship onward.

Mm-hmm. Out to somewhere else. So

[00:55:19] Hayley McGinley: Also quick hear that also quick, quick, uh, plug too. 'cause I just thought of actually a better answer would be White Pine Wilderness Academy, if you're familiar with them. Um, they are a primitive survival skills school and they teach primitive survival skills. It's amazing.

And when I was living in Rocky Ripple. It was like two houses down for me. And that would actually be a better answer for like a specific Third Space because it wasn't my job. Um, but I hung out there all the time and I took classes and I met an amazing community of people who were like super invested in learning primitive survival skills.

And um, yeah, that place is magical. That was a special time of life too.

[00:56:00] Michael Zarick: Perfect. Love that.

[00:56:01] Hayley McGinley: Yeah.

[00:56:02] Michael Zarick: One or two-ish Last questions. I always ask a question from the previous guest.

[00:56:08] Hayley McGinley: Oh, fun.

[00:56:10] Michael Zarick: Technically there were two guests, uh, but they kind of tagged along with each other. Okay. On the same question. Uh, my previous guests were the two folks from IUYA.

[00:56:19] Hayley McGinley: Mm-hmm.

[00:56:19] Michael Zarick: Uh, and they ask, what is the thing you procrastinate on the most?

Call yourself out.

[00:56:30] Hayley McGinley: I'm not a big procrastinator to be honest. Um, but. Okay, let's see. I, I wanna think of a good answer here.

[00:56:37] Michael Zarick: Oh, then it's a harder question.

[00:56:38] Hayley McGinley: Actually, I think I have an answer here. Um, if I, like with my business specifically, there are many times where this happens, where there's like a, a decision has to be made on something.

And as the owner and you know, the primary decision maker, like that fall, I am the decision maker. So like, those always fall on me. Um, but if it's something that feels like a particularly big decision, I will procrastinate because I'll get to a point where it feels like overwhelming and then I just can't, I'm like, I'm just not, I can't make a decision right now.

Um, so I have tried to get better at that. Uh,

[00:57:21] Michael Zarick: it's like a stress thing. You're like,

[00:57:23] Hayley McGinley: it's a stress thing. Yeah. It's an overwhelm thing. It's like decision fatigue is real, especially when you're running a business. Is

[00:57:29] Michael Zarick: it like fear of making the wrong decision, you think?

[00:57:32] Hayley McGinley: Probably. Um, I'm, that's, that's a part of it for sure.

[00:57:37] Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.

[00:57:39] Hayley McGinley: Um, or just not like, I wanna feel like a sense of a, of certainty when I'm making a choice. And if I don't feel a strong sense of certainty, it's really hard for me to make a choice one way or another, um, until I feel some stronger certainty for like, you know, one decision or another.

[00:57:58] Michael Zarick: Yeah.

[00:57:58] Hayley McGinley: If that makes sense.

[00:57:59] Michael Zarick: Definitely.

[00:58:00] Hayley McGinley: Yeah.

[00:58:01] Michael Zarick: Okay. One last question 'cause I do have to wrap up. Yes. I have a meeting. No, actually I would, we could go along, we could go longer, but I actually scheduled this meeting. It's for my actual job. Mm-hmm. Uh, like two days ago and I was like, dang it. Uh, but it was the only time we could fit it in.

[00:58:16] Hayley McGinley: This has been an awesome conversation, so

[00:58:17] Michael Zarick: yeah.

[00:58:18] Hayley McGinley: It's all good.

[00:58:18] Michael Zarick: One last question. What question would you like to ask the next Third Space yet? There? There was a sneak preview. Just,

[00:58:27] Hayley McGinley: um, I know, I knew that was gonna be your last question. I wish I had time to. Have prepared something, um,

[00:58:37] Michael Zarick: no time better than the present,

[00:58:39] Hayley McGinley: sinking into like my inner Esther Perel, if you know who that is.

Uh, I don't, last night at the conversation when, uh, was it Patrick who? No. Um, the question of, uh, what's something that you procrastinated on last year mm-hmm. That you aren't going to procrastinate. Was it procrastinate?

[00:59:01] Michael Zarick: I believe it was held you back.

[00:59:02] Hayley McGinley: Well, yes. Well, something that held you back last year that you're not gonna let hold you back this year.

Um, and when that whole thing came up, it made me think of Esther Perel, who is a psychotherapist. She's one of my favorite, um, uh, educators. And she's brilliant. But, uh, she has a game. She made a, a literal game called, where Should We Begin? Based on her podcast. Also called, where Should We Begin? But it's a game of questions, a game of stories, and I love playing that game.

'cause I love. Deep, meaningful conversations and asking people questions. Um, and so I thought of that at the talk last night.

Could I just use that question because I can't think of anything.

[00:59:45] Michael Zarick: Oh, I loved, okay. I will say as a side note, like I loved, um, that Patrick goes like, what's one of the questions you asked on the cards? He asked the question. Yes. And then Patrick just asked it back. Yes. And he goes, oh yeah, good question.

[00:59:57] Hayley McGinley: What a great question. Yes.

[01:00:00] Michael Zarick: Uh, so we'll pass it on.

[01:00:02] Hayley McGinley: So what is something that held you back last year that you are not gonna let hold you back this year?

[01:00:07] Michael Zarick: Yeah. Okay. Hey, great question. Um,

[01:00:10] Hayley McGinley: thanks.

[01:00:11] Michael Zarick: I like to answer the question also.

[01:00:12] Hayley McGinley: Okay, cool.

[01:00:15] Michael Zarick: I think something that holds me back, um, even still is this, in a lot of ways like not, I definitely like.

Commitment to thinking that what I do is not having the impact that I, that I it actually is having.

[01:00:34] Hayley McGinley: Mm-hmm.

[01:00:35] Michael Zarick: Um, 'cause I, there are a couple people who reach out to me after each episode and say like, that was wonderful and amazing. Mm-hmm. And I think those people are what remind me that what I'm doing is good.

Mm-hmm. Even if it's not having the wide listenership of some people. Mm-hmm. The fact that I am reaching the ears of few and having impact on them is something I'm trying to constantly remind myself of.

[01:00:57] Hayley McGinley: Right.

[01:00:58] Michael Zarick: Yeah. While also sort of continuing to push forward in terms of like, what thing can I do beyond just recording a podcast?

Yeah. If, if that makes sense. Uh, some things to come, um,

[01:01:11] Hayley McGinley: yeah.

[01:01:12] Michael Zarick: But that's what I think about is like getting outta my own head.

[01:01:14] Hayley McGinley: Mm. Mm-hmm. That's beautiful.

[01:01:16] Michael Zarick: Yeah.

[01:01:17] Hayley McGinley: We, we are like the single thing that holds us back, right. Like our, always our mindset, our thoughts. Yeah. Same. I.

[01:01:25] Michael Zarick: Every loaf of bread I bake is beautiful, even if I hate it.

That's what I'll say.

[01:01:30] Hayley McGinley: Exactly. You too. Yeah,

[01:01:32] Michael Zarick: that could, I'm probably gonna go buy a cookie on Saturday. There'll be around, right?

[01:01:36] Hayley McGinley: Yep. Yes, they will be. Yes. I just, sorry, I was thinking about in the future there's gonna be a upcoming Saturday where we won't have cookies. Um, and it's, I don't have to get it, it's a long story, but it'll just be that one specific Saturday.

But this Saturday there will be cookies at the farmer's market. Yeah.

[01:01:50] Michael Zarick: I actually meant to burst the subject of, of farmer's markets with you, but we are out of time. So

[01:01:55] Hayley McGinley: next time

[01:01:56] Michael Zarick: Hayley, where can the lovely listeners of Third Space Indy find you?

[01:02:01] Hayley McGinley: Oh, uh, well our bakery is located in Castleton at 96th and Allisonville.

Mm-hmm. Um, we also ship nationwide, so no matter where you are in the country, can, that's pretty cool. Order native bread and I didn't

[01:02:12] Michael Zarick: know that

[01:02:12] Hayley McGinley: shipped. Mm-hmm. Um, and then we're at farmer's markets. We're also in local grocery stores and coffee shop. All around the city.

[01:02:23] Michael Zarick: Yeah.

[01:02:23] Hayley McGinley: So all of that is on our website, nativebread.com.

[01:02:26] Michael Zarick: What farmers' markets, how many farmer's markets are you at, do you know?

[01:02:29] Hayley McGinley: For the winter season we do three. We're at the Indy winter market, Broad Ripple, bull and caramel. And then the summer season we just do two because the summer markets are way busier and we just don't have the, the volume production, whatever staff so's

[01:02:42] Michael Zarick: Broad Ripple and Carmel probably

[01:02:42] Hayley McGinley: Haughville and caramel is summer.

Yeah,

[01:02:44] Michael Zarick: I know what the truth is.

[01:02:45] Hayley McGinley: You know it. Mm-hmm. They're great farmer's markets.

[01:02:48] Michael Zarick: Yeah. I go,

[01:02:48] Hayley McGinley: I love them.

[01:02:49] Michael Zarick: Uh, thank you so much for joining me.

[01:02:51] Hayley McGinley: Yeah. Thank you for having

[01:02:52] Michael Zarick: me. Wait, what's your, what's your Instagram? Is it

[01:02:54] Hayley McGinley: just native bread? Uh, native,

[01:02:55] Michael Zarick: yeah. Native bread. Mm-hmm. Native bread on Instagram. Uh, they post some good stuff over there.

Mainly bread.

[01:03:00] Hayley McGinley: I try to, it's hard. Oh, man.

[01:03:03] Michael Zarick: Uh,

[01:03:04] Hayley McGinley: it's like a whole nother job on its own,

[01:03:06] Michael Zarick: literally.

[01:03:07] Hayley McGinley: Mm-hmm.

[01:03:07] Michael Zarick: Thank you so much for watching or listening to this episode of Third Space Indy. You can find me at Third Space Indy on Instagram. Or at thirdspaceindy.com, where sometimes I write a blog. I, I will be keep saying this until the end of time I'm playing catch up on the blog.

Um, thank you so much to Mark Latta in city rising.org for sponsoring the podcast. Thank you to the Red Door Cafe for hosting this episode of the Podcast

[01:03:32] Hayley McGinley: Coffee Shop.

[01:03:33] Michael Zarick: And by hosting, I mean, I just walked in and asked if we could record and they said, of course. Um, and as always, thank you to the local artist Jennasen for allowing me to use your song Scared Rabbit as the intro music.

[01:03:44] Hayley McGinley: It's a beautiful song.

[01:03:44] Michael Zarick: I love it. So beautiful. I'm probably the single person who's listened to that song the most other than Jennasen herself. Aw,

[01:03:52] Hayley McGinley: that's so beautiful.

[01:03:53] Michael Zarick: Well, I, I literally listen to it every time. I,

[01:03:55] Hayley McGinley: right.

[01:03:55] Michael Zarick: Yeah. Pick the podcast. Um,

[01:03:58] Hayley McGinley: you picked a good one to listen to a lot.

[01:04:02] Michael Zarick: Hey, thank you once again for listening to the podcast.

See you the next one. Goodbye.

[01:04:09] Hayley McGinley: Bye.