Ep. 11 - Michael Green - Founder of Flags for Good
Listen while you read
Youtube — — Spotify — — Apple Pods
Intro
Thanks to Michael Green for joining me on the podcast this week. He and I, I think, have a very similar view of the world. That always makes for an easy conversation. I cut it out of the end of the recording, but he said as much by saying “I forgot we were even recording a podcast,” which in a couple of ways is high praise.
Also, I must apologize, this will be shorter than normal (though I mostly just write it for myself). But, I also recently got a job this past Friday, so that means I have a lot to do before I become fully comfortable in my new position — and running a podcast in tandem. Thanks for coming on this journey with me; it has been and will remain fun.
Can be found here:
Links to listen
Links of references from the show
Production learnings
Story Time
Episode Summary
Episode Transcript
Third Space Indy is supported by Arrows.
Important links and mentions
Production learnings from the episode
This past week, I learned about a free piece of software for timekeeping - Clockify. This has revealed a couple of things to me. I spend less time doing things that are not podcast editing than I thought — and I spend far more time editing the podcast than I thought.
I’m interested in continuing to track time and understanding more about how much of my life this is taking up. It’s not a problem, just an interesting thing to consider.
The other thing that was interesting about editing this podcast is that I began editing on my laptop. I start these recent episodes by working with the different audio tracks to make sure there’s little or no microphone bleed (hearing one speaker through the other person’s microphone). This time around, I did that entire process on my laptop and then swapped to my desktop PC. The changes I made saved, but in an odd way. As I edited the podcast, it became clear the audio was getting desynced again.
So I essentially had to do this process twice, which is a good chunk of time added to the total, but worth noting for the future.
Rallying Behind a Banner
I think if this morning I had more energy to write, I’d spell out a picture of standing each morning at my summer camp when I was younger for the flag raising and lowering. How interesting and odd that process is when viewed from an outsider’s perspective.
That said, this idea of standing for the flag, showing respect for the troops, and a show of national pride makes sense to me. Even if I don’t personally partake or agree, it makes sense. It ties into the theme of the episode as well. Finding mutual struggle and community through a simple banner is something we have lived with here in America for as long as I have been alive, and as far as I know, quite a bit longer.
The thought I’d like to leave you with is just to think about where and when in your life you have stood behind an arbitrary symbol. I’m not telling you that it’s correct or wrong to do so, but think about it and think about why. It’s an interesting exercise in self-reflection and potentially eye-opening to how you have lived your life. For myself, I think deeply about summer camp, about my allegiance to the Alliance in World of Warcraft, and about how much I love the Churchill Downs twin spires despite thinking that place is not connected to Louisville in the same ways it used to be.
I imagine that there are special symbols or logos that ring in your mind. Try to picture them and think about why they are there. Thanks as always for reading, and I hope you enjoy the episode with Michael.
Third Space Indy is supported by Arrows.
Episode Summary and Transcript
Episode Summary
Flags for Good: Community Building through Symbolism with Michael Green
In this episode of Third Space Indy, host Michael Zarick interviews Michael Green, founder of Flags For Good. They discuss the power of flags as symbols for unification, identity, and community building. Green shares the origins of his company, which started as a pandemic project, inspired by a need for positive, inclusive symbols amidst a market of indifferent merchandise sellers. The conversation dives into the design principles of flags, the history of the Indianapolis flag, and the impact of flags on marginalized communities, particularly the LGBTQ+ community. Green talks about his personal journey, the role of flags in providing visible support to communities, and his ongoing efforts to contribute to a vibrant, inclusive Indianapolis. The episode also explores potential business ideas and the importance of maintaining a positive vision for the city's future.
00:00 Introduction to Third Space Indy
00:19 Meeting Michael Green of Flags For Good
01:04 The Story Behind Flags For Good
03:24 The Power of Flags in Community Building
06:13 Roman Mars and the Influence on Flag Design
14:57 The Indianapolis Flag and Its History
23:48 The Importance of Flags in the LGBTQ+ Community
30:38 Challenges and Future of Flag Manufacturing
34:21 Small Mini Cooper Aside
35:10 The Story Behind the Mini Cooper
35:44 Creating a Unique Store Experience
36:35 The Charm and Challenges of Indianapolis
38:04 The Importance of Community and Inclusivity
40:07 Ideas for Improving Indianapolis
44:09 The Role of Public Transit
52:20 Supporting Small Businesses
57:45 Future Plans and Aspirations
59:55 Conclusion and Contact Information
Episode Transcript
Michael Green
===
[00:00:00]
Michael Zarick: In your own words, explain to me why you think flags are so important to, queer folks.
Michael Green: So, gosh, this is such a deep question. The queer community has been, quote unquote flagging for so long. Mm-hmm.. Before the rainbow flag was even a thing. So they had to be able to express who they were, but to the right people.
So it was almost a code.
Um, so they had the handkerchief code and stuff like that. That changed when Gilbert Baker decided to make the first rainbow flag. You don't fly a flag unless you are like la you know, like screaming. It basically, it's a loud symbol. And so being able, the queer community being able to be not just out but loud, was huge
Michael Zarick: ~a lot of times I will go, oh, I wonder what that is representing. Yeah. Um, so it makes me curious to look into that and go, oh, okay, this is whatever. Right. ~
Michael Green: ~Yeah. ~
Michael Zarick: [00:01:00] Hello, my name is Michael Zarick and this is Third Space Indy, where we
talk to community builders, leaders and organizers about building comfortable spaces in their neighborhoods, supporting their communities, and bringing people together. Today I'm joined by Michael Green, the founder of Flags For Good.
And just to like, the reason I'm here, Michael, both
so,
you know, and the listeners know, is that when we very first met, um, I was meeting someone at Calvin Fletcher. And right across the street from our new space across. Yeah. Across. And you had just opened this space? Yep. It wasn't even open when I walked in and,
and I looked across the street and I saw Flags For Good. I had never heard of you before. Okay. I had pretty much just moved here and I had just lost my job. Cool. Like a month before.
Michael Green: Well, not cool that you lost your job, but Yeah. [00:02:00] You're still discovering the city. Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm. And so I walked over and, uh, I don't think the door was supposed to be open, but I walked in anyways.
Um, and I just introduced myself. And then I asked you like, why you do this. And the story you told me, which really connected with me in that moment was you would go to events or, um, I don't know what exactly you went to, but you went to places where people were selling merchandise and often flags.
Yeah.
And among those flags were, um, I realize this might be a consequential place to sit. Um, no, it's, it's fine. As people see the closed sign
Michael Green: Yeah.
So they, they come in and they, they realize we're not open.
sucks. And that's, I mean, we can get to that, you know, 'cause we, we aren't open very much. Um, oh, see you later.
Michael Zarick: But to continue the story. Yes. Yeah.
But to continue the story, um, you said you would go to these things, you'd see these people selling flags and intermixed with, [00:03:00] um, you know, rainbow flags and pride flags of all types, city flags, all of these things. You also saw flags that, um, people like myself, people like you would see as hateful,
um, flags for bad Yeah.
for Flags for flags for bad.
Yeah. Um,
Michael Green: It just felt like, like they weren't, they, they were selling stuff that just to just make money. They didn't care mm-hmm. About what they were selling. And, and flags are such a passionate purchas. Yes. Like when you buy a flag, you obviously care about something really deeply.
And so it felt there was the cognitive dissonance of like buying a pride flag from a company that sold a Confederate flag, you know? Yeah. So, yeah, that was sort of the, the problem, quote unquote, that I was trying to solve. And in the end, it was just a pandemic project, so I really wasn't trying to like build an empire or anything.
It was, I thought I had two weeks. 'cause we were like, oh, we're just gonna be locked down for two weeks. And, um, I was [00:04:00] like, yeah, I'm going to make use of this two weeks. And at that same time, George Floyd was murdered and so I wanted BLM flags couldn't find them, or if you could find them, they were from those, you know, flags for bad.
So yeah, that's kind of the two things put together that, um, kind of spurred the, the beginnings of this whole project.
Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So the reason I'm here is actually because of that story but also.
on the topic of third spaces mm-hmm. On the topic of community, um, flags as a symbol of unification mm-hmm. Of neighborhoods, of cities, of countries, yep.
Of identities, I think are powerful tools of the most powerful. Yeah. Show as silent symbolism saying, I'm your ally, Mm-hmm. I'm your friend, I'm a [00:05:00] member of your community, I'm your neighbor. Yeah. That's why I'm here to talk to you about this idea of just flags as, as a powerful community building tool.
Michael Green: Totally. I mean, I, I've said this before in lots of places, but it's worth repeating like.
In terms of just pure graphic design, flags are the simplest form of graphic design. Like right next to me, I have a Ukrainian flag. It's just blue and yellow. Mm-hmm. Two colors, two stripes, boom. That's it. But the, the amount of things you can communicate through that incredibly simple design, uh, is, it speaks so many words.
And like, yeah. So if I'm flying this and you're driving down the street, you automatically know so many things about me, your neighbor. Um, and that's kind of where the power of flags really caught me in the beginning. Um, 'cause like I said, I started it during the BLM movement and I was living in a, um, suburb [00:06:00] in Texas that was, you know, obviously quite conservative.
And so I wanted my black neighbors to know that they were not alone. That they had allies in their community that, you know, it was a hard time for the whole country, but especially for the black community. And so, um, that right there is the power of what a flag can do, um, to really change your community.
And like you said, it's silent, right? Like I'm, I didn't need to march down the street with a blow, with a, with bullhorn, right? Like, it was just, I put it out in front of my house and as people come and go to work, they feel safer. They know that they belong in their neighborhood. And, um, that's the power of flags.
And, and you know, it, it can go much bigger or much less deep than that too, if it's just like a city flag or state flag too. But mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, in the end we're talking about symbols of belonging and [00:07:00] identity and Yeah. Creating those in groups without necessarily trying to create outgroups at the same time.
Michael Zarick: Definitely.
Michael Green: Yeah,
Michael Zarick: definitely. Um. So so I guess this is a two-parter. Mm-hmm. I got interested in flag design at least loosely, um, through the Roman Mars. Ninety-Nine, not 99. No. He, it was, he runs 99% Invisible, but he did a TED Talk. Yes. It was
Michael Green: first an episode of Ninety-Nine PI that he'd converted into the TED talk.
Okay. I think I saw
Michael Zarick: the TED talk first. Yeah. Um, even though I, I knew about 99% Invisible, but, um, a lovely, um, talk. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Very interesting.
Um,
you yourself have done a TED talk, which we talk about a little bit, but how did you, was that your sort of personal revelation or is that, did you have a different, um, experience learning about flag design?
Michael Green: No, Roman ruined my life [00:08:00] and I told him that, um, you met him,
Michael Zarick: Uhhuh. Oh, that's fire.
Michael Green: Yeah. I'll, I'll tell you that story in a second, but, um. So I was into flags my whole life and I had done a blog in 2014 before his Ted Talk about how bad state flags were and how we need to redesign them. Mm-hmm. And blah, blah, blah.
It went viral on medium. It was awesome. We got picked up, up on a bunch of things and I was like, here we go.
Michael Zarick: How old were you then?
Michael Green: Um, I don't even know how old you 28 or some 20? No. Yeah, 25. I was, you know, in just outta college. Yeah. 10 years ago. Yeah. So I was like, this is it. I'm gonna be the first Ted Talk on flags, and then a year later, Roman blows up the world and does the first Ted talk on flags.
And it just, it gutted me. Yes. And it was on like the same topic. Not that he plagiarized at all, but it was just like, it was like, oh, now if I'm gonna do this, like I can't. You know, what am I gonna talk about? [00:09:00] So, um, no, but Roman and his TED Talk, I mean, completely exploded the world of vexillology. So many cities states have now redesigned their flag because of that TED Talk, um, he got the Vex Air Award, uh, which is an award that Nava gives out, um, for like, what's the Nava?
Nava is the North American Vexillological Association. Oh, okay. So it's like the big flag nerd, or, and by big I mean like a hundred old white guys. Really? Mm-hmm. Like that's, well, it's getting more diverse now, which is amazing. But when I joined 10 years ago, it was just a bunch of very academic. We're gonna talk about the history of flags.
Bunch of little nerds
Yeah.
Which is great. There's a space I, that's kind of what you want. And now it's really blowing up, uh, which is awesome. So, um, if you're into flags, look them up. But, um, I'm hoping to host NAVA 60 here in Indy next year. Link in the show notes. Yeah. Yeah, hopefully we'll have it here in Indy. Um, in 2026.
Michael Zarick: How, [00:10:00] how large is this organization?
Michael Green: It's not large. Like when you go to a conference, it's, it's probably a hundred to 150 people.
Michael Zarick: Definitely not that big, but you could, you could fill a restaurant.
Michael Green: True. And let me tell you the, if you're into flags, it is the nerdiest. It's just, it's basically lectures. So people write academic papers and they present them.
Michael Zarick: That's amazing.
Michael Green: It's so fascinating. Anyway,
Michael Zarick: I'm reading my new logo, uh, after this. Okay. Give your opinion. Sweet. I tried to, I mean, I kind of just stole the Indianapolis flag, but uh, hey, you can steal it. I incorporated some interesting elements, so I, I'm interested to hear your thoughts and I'll, I'll write about it in the blog.
Michael Green: Totally. And we can talk about the Indy flag too, 'cause it's right there, the original flag.
Michael Zarick: I would love that.
Michael Green: Um, anyway, um, what were we talking about? Oh, Roman Mars. So, yes, he, he really lit the world on fire. And now, and, and he makes it very clear in his, the beginning of his talk, they're like, people think they don't care about flags, but everybody cares about flags.
You just, you need to be reminded that you do because you, we [00:11:00] probably see what a hundred flags a day or more, just going to work and back. Even if you don't think of it as a flag, it's a barrier of some kind. An emoji, a language selector, you know, like we, we, they're, they're everywhere. Mm-hmm. And people don't think about them.
They don't give them the time of day to really study them except for the hundred or so people in this organization. But yeah.
Michael Zarick: So what did you tell Roman Mars?
Michael Green: Oh, I told him he ruined my life.
Michael Zarick: Oh, you're like, you're like, I could have gotten the award.
Michael Green: No, no. It was a joke.
Uh, no. So he reached out to me, this is, this.
Oh my God. Blew my mind, uh, reached out to me and was like, Hey, I'm getting married. Uh, I want a, a flag for my wedding, for my new family that represents our family. And I was just like, uh, hi. You know, I was like, why did you come to me pooped in that moment recently? And, um.
um,
Yeah. So, and then in that conversation I told him about the Indianapolis, that I have the Indianapolis flag.
Mm-hmm.
Well then by pure [00:12:00] happenstance, he was recording an episode of Dear Hank and John with John Green the next day. Mm-hmm. And John Green for some reason brings up the Indianapolis flag and Roman on Ninety-Nine PI slash uh, Dear Hank and John, my, the two podcasts I listen to every week. Yeah. He goes, I was just talking to Michael from Flags for Good about the Indianapolis flag.
If I was driving at that moment, I would've crashed my car. And I'm so glad I wasn't. But what a, that's my very biggest claim to fame. Yeah. What a, has John Green reached out? No. John Green, another very famous Indianapolis resident, not the, another, I'm not famous, but, um, whatever. We have the exact same name.
He's John Michael Green and I am John Michael Green. I go by Michael though. And so. I've met him a few times. Okay. And the first time I met him, I was just like, John, I have one thing to say to you. You and I have the exact same name, you know? And so he took a picture with me on his phone, and [00:13:00] that was that
Michael Zarick: the goal is to get him on the hundredth episode of his podcast.
Michael Green: Good luck. I mean, he's incredible.
Michael Zarick: I'm gonna rope him in.
That'd be awesome.
He's like, I, not to get to aside, but like to me, uh, Indiana and Indianapolis are core, uh, to his writing.
Hmm. Yeah,
for sure. Um, I think that definitely fits in with the theme.
Michael Green: Yeah. My goal when I moved here was to become best friends with him.
Still working on it. I'm four years in. I mean, I like soccer. I mean, we, we have so much in common, but, you know, it's, he's a hard guy to get ahold of.
Michael Zarick: Hmm.
So let's talk about, about, um, this, this banner behind us. Yeah. Actually, why don't we talk about the banner after you tell me. Oh, actually, mm-hmm. One quick aside.
So let's do the gimme the principles of flag design.
Michael Green: Oh. Now you're gonna have to make me remember them. Um, okay. So they NAVA put out a pamphlet called Good Flag, Bad Flag. And it's basically the five principles of flag [00:14:00] design. Not that you have to follow them, but it's basically they took all of the successful flags and successful meaning like they're used a lot.
Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.
Michael Green: And they boil them down. They're like, what do all of these have in common? Mm-hmm. And the five things they have in common are, my rule number one is don't put words on flex, because if you need a word on it, it already failed. It needs to be able to say what it is without having an English word.
'cause you can't read it on a flag anyway when it's flying in it, in this, you know, wind. Um, keep it simple. So anything that's really detailed, you, you're not gonna be able to see it from a distance. Uh, in the same way, not too many colors, usually just two or three would be best. And a lot of times the colors follow the rules of tincture from, uh, heraldry, which is a whole nother rabbit hole.
You can go down if you, if you're a big nerd, um, shit, what are the other rules? No [00:15:00] seals, you know, like stuff like that. Nothing too complicated basically. Yes. And then be related, so like Indianapolis flag should in some way maybe reference that it's in Indiana or the United States. So the fact that there's a five pointed star and it's red, white, and blue, um, but also be distinctive.
So you obviously wouldn't want flag that's too similar to something else. Um, yeah. So those are I think the five. Mm-hmm.
Michael Zarick: But also those are not, uh, hard rules. Right. Because No, obviously, you know, if you look at, I think the classic example is just the American flag. Yep. The USA does not fit into that. It is, no, it's too complicated actually.
Kind of ugly, but also so iconic that you can't
Michael Green: exactly remove it in California too. It's got words on it. But guess what? And a bear. Everybody loves it. 'cause it's got a bear. Yeah. The bear's awesome.
Michael Zarick: Um, great. So tell me, uh, in your own words, 'cause I have my own opinions. Mm-hmm. I think it's great. Um, [00:16:00] I think you probably do too.
Um, the Indianapolis flag.
Michael Green: Yeah. Um, maybe I'll start with its history because I think it's interesting and it's right over there on the wall. But, um, so the Indianapolis has actually had three flags in its history. The first two are shit. Um, and so in 1962 or three, I forget, uh, the, the city council put out a contest to redesign the flag.
Um, Roger Gohl was a 18-year-old kid at Heron, uh, School of Design. And his teacher basically made every one of them enter the contest as a school assignment. So he didn't really actually care, um, ended up winning the contest. He got $50 and a lunch with the mayor. And so the original design, if you look over there, it's the, the circle.
Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.
Michael Green: Uh, is off-centered. [00:17:00] And that was, and Roger told me he's like, I always knew that the, the Indianapolis flag would usually fly with the American flag, and the American flag is asymmetrical. And I wanted the Indy flag to sort of mirror that asymmetry. Um, but at some point after Roger left and went to California, someone in the city moved it to the center.
Mm-hmm. No one knows who. No one knows when. And it's been that way ever since. But Roger was like, it's still a good flag. I don't care.
Yeah.
So, um, so yeah, it represents the, the circle. Mm-hmm. Um, the monument in the center and then, you know, Meridian Street and, uh, Washington Street. Do you actually Yeah, it's Washington, even though that's not the one that goes through the circle.
Um, he, he said, you know, the old historic Michigan Road, which is Washington Street, is kind of the important East west through the city.
Um, which do you prefer? Do you prefer the [00:18:00] off-centered one? You know, now that I look at it a lot, I do prefer the off-centered, I don't know why.
Michael Zarick: Little, uh, variation,
Michael Green: you know?
Yeah. Little, uh, what do they call it? Like
Michael Zarick: visual dis, uh, variety.
Michael Green: Yeah, I do. And I, maybe I'll start making some off-centered ones, because every time someone comes in and sees that, they're like, I kind of like it, so maybe I should start selling it off-centered. But, um, yeah, I think it's a successful design.
Either way. And it won, I think, the eighth best city flag in the country. Eighth back in, what's the very first? Oh, Chicago. Chicago. Yeah. We all know. Yeah. I mean, it's the best. Um, no question. So yeah, it's definitely, you know, I don't love the colors. They're kind of primary red, white, and blue is kind of like, the, you know, it's so overdone.
Michael Zarick: I personally, um, like back to my like logo journey mm-hmm. mm-hmm. I really like the idea of using Third Space Indy. Mm-hmm. I was like, oh, it, I want to grab that sort of visual representation. But [00:19:00] the colors are so, especially on like seeing it sit there, like that blue color is so, hurts your eyes a little bit.
Yeah. Yeah, for sure it does. So I like deepen the blue a little bit. Yep. Softened it, I suppose. Um, so I just think that, uh, there's, there's improvements to be made, but it's so good.
Michael Green: Yeah, no, it, it definitely follows all the rules of flag design. And the, the problem with it is if someone. A lot of people know nothing about Indianapolis.
Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.
Michael Green: You know, before I moved here, I didn't have, when you said Indianapolis, I didn't have a picture pop into my head of anything. Mm-hmm. And so when someone like that from around the country sees that flag, they don't see Indianapolis and that flag because they don't know we have a circle in the middle of the city.
So that is kind of one of its, um, faults. But then again, Chicago doesn't, you know, if you don't know anything about Chicago, doesn't scream Chicago right off the bat. Mm-hmm. Um, so I [00:20:00] think it could be improved, but at this point, momentum is more important than making a perfect design. So I think it has the momentum and it has everything.
It needs to be this symbol that unifies this city and gives people a sense of identity. And that's why I was so proud to, um, get that, because I moved here in 2022. I didn't wanna move here. I Wait, you said the
Michael Zarick: Oh, Flags for Good. Was not born in Indianapolis? No, I didn't. I didn't know
Michael Green: that. No, it was back in my like, uh, spare room in Texas.
Mm-hmm. And then I moved here like a year or so after, um, and I was struggling finding my identity in the city. Um, I was struggling to, to like it, you know, I didn't want to be here. I felt like I was forced here, couldn't find a, a group of people to hang out with. Um, and so when I received the original Indy [00:21:00] flag from Roger, I was sort of like, okay, maybe this is my place in the city.
Like maybe it's my mission to help this city grow its identity. Because I was the perfect example of somebody who didn't know anything about Indy, didn't care about it, didn't think it was cool, wouldn't have vacationed here or anything like that. Yeah. But once I was here, after a while of me getting over all of that, I was like, this place is awesome.
Yeah. And it has a great story and we need to tell it and we need to make people feel proud of this city. And so yeah, that my, my little place in that is the flag and uh, but I'm also working with the Indy Chamber and the Visit Indy to help, um, rebrand this city to make it more of a
Michael Zarick: That's awesome
Michael Green: place.
Michael Zarick: I don't know why I didn't expect you to tell me that you were working with the city, but it makes sense. Um,
Michael Green: not to the city per se, but Visit Indy. The tourism Yeah. Yeah. Arm of it,
they're the [00:22:00] people that are here to make this place cool. Mm-hmm. Like they're the people that brought Taylor Swift Era's Tour here, like they are the ones, does that make it
Michael Zarick: cool?
Yeah. I guess, uh, having big names here is cool
Michael Green: Yes.
You know, the more times people are like Indianapolis. Was, man, I keep seeing things from in Indy I should check that out. Or like the more pictures you can paint in their mind of that place being cool or, oh, a company moved to Indy Oh, awesome. Like basically how Austin and Nashville have grown in the last 10 years of their reputation.
Mm-hmm. in the That's what we're trying to do.
Michael Zarick: I
Michael Green: would love that.
Michael Zarick: Yeah. That's what I'm trying to do, kind of. Yeah. Uh, I, I just, my maybe vision is
less,
um, commercial and more how do you make it good for people Absolutely. Yep. Um, there's so many pieces where we need people working on every aspect of that. Mm-hmm.
Michael Green: And getting people who already live here to feel proud
and to feel they have a space and an identity and a, and a, a place here in the city [00:23:00] is so key to
that being because, I mean, you can put up commercials about like, and come to Indianapolis, but like that doesn't matter as much as somebody from Indy going to a bar in New York City.
So like, yeah, I'm from Indy Speed City baby. Like, you know, that's way more important, you
Michael Zarick: um
Michael Green: so funny. Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Um, so tell me, uh, you kind of touched on it when I first, when we, I first pointed it out, but tell me about this thing behind us. Yeah. So it's just for, if you're not watching video, it's a giant,
uh, knit canvas or like
different fabrics, uh Yeah.
But of, of the Indianapolis flag behind us.
Michael Green: Yeah. So when we opened this store, um,
I wanted to have sort of a art
Michael Zarick: explain
Michael Green: commissioned
to be a part of our opening, and also to welcome the
Michael Zarick: queer
Michael Green: flag back to Indy because it had lived in California for 50 some years. So I got my friends at People for Urban Progress who take repurposed fabrics and they make bags and all kinds of cool things outta them.[00:24:00]
And I was like,
Michael Zarick: uh
Michael Green: make a flag
out of
the fabric of Indianapolis, is what we ended up calling it. Mm-hmm.
so they took all of these pieces of fabric from you know, you can see, um, the IMS banners. We've got the star in the middle is the top of the old Hoosier dome, which is pretty cool. So basically it is, it is a flag made up of fabric from the city. If you notice, it's a checkerboard as well. Mm-hmm. So it's a way to sort of, 'cause I always say that Indy has two flags. It has the
city flag and It has the checkered flag. Right. Right.
That's very funny. And so this is sort of a way to incorporate the checkered flag into the city flag too.
Michael Zarick: Awesome.
I, I, it's a really cool, uh, a thing. I'm not a sentimental guy, but I'm becoming through this podcast. I think I'm becoming more sentimental. Because Yeah. And 'cause I hang out with my wife too much. Um, so want to talk about, um, and you are not of [00:25:00] L-G-B-T-Q. Mm-hmm. I don't want to out you in this way, but No, no. Um, You're not in the, the. Culture is not the right word. I'm a straight cis white dude. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Same,
Same.
uh, fortunately or unfortunately, right? Um, I'm not sure which is correct. Um, probably fortunately in this current time.
Michael Green: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Um, unfortunately it's fortunate. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and so
Michael Zarick: in your own words, because you're not part of Yeah. The community. Explain to me why you think flags are so important to, um, queer folks.
Michael Green: Man,
Michael Zarick: I'm hopefully
Michael Green: gonna be doing a video on this. Mm-hmm. Um, '
Michael Zarick: cause again, as someone who's not, uh, it's, it goes back to the idea of like, personal experience. It's impossible to talk about, uh, coming into a safe space when you've always been ostensibly safe. Mm-hmm. Um, um, but you can try to understand or try to try to share,
Michael Green: totally. Um, [00:26:00] so, gosh, this is such a deep question. The queer community has been, quote unquote flagging for so long. Mm-hmm. Before the rainbow flag was even a thing. Mm-hmm. So they had to be able to express who they were, but to the right people.
So it was almost a code.
Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.
Michael Green: Um, so they had the handkerchief code.
and stuff like that. You know, it was the way they dressed. Maybe it was a, you know, something they did with their hair. It was a way to identify and express themself outwardly, um, so that people could understand something about who they were inside.
know you can learn about the That changed when Gilbert Baker decided to make the first rainbow flag. Um, and I could go into the history of the rainbow flag, but I think the question is more about what it means. gritty now Mm-hmm Every know, flags are probably such a, the first thing they do whenever they what's [00:27:00] the right word? Loud maybe. Symbol. Mm-hmm. Like, you don't fly a flag unless you are like la you know, like screaming.
It basically, it's a loud symbol. And so being able, the queer community being able to be not just out but loud, um, was huge So, um,
know, Gilbert Baker's Rainbow Flag in San Francisco, 19 67, 9, maybe I forget. Um, I'll fact check you later. Thanks. Yeah. Flash it up. I should know that. I mean, they have all the little histories of the pride flags over here.
If you ever come in the store, you can read 'em. But, um, I mean, that changed the game because it gave people that symbol, a unifying symbol for the whole queer community. Now that symbol has changed over time because the community has changed over time. Mm-hmm. Um, the addition of the black and brown and then the teal and [00:28:00] white and pink of the trans flag.
Those things came about recently because it's like, well, the queer community needs to give some special attention, some special, you know, um, raising up of voices of the queer, of the trans community and, you know, some, uh, of the bipoc community within the queer community. And so I think watching the history of the, the rainbow flag has been a really cool way to, you know, you can learn about the LGBT community just by looking at the history of the flag.
Mm-hmm. But beyond that too, now you have a flag for lesbians, a flag for aromantic, asexual people. I mean, like, it's so nitty gritty now where every micro identity felt that has a flag. It's probably the first thing they do whenever they find, you know, that they have a community
is create a, in a
Michael Zarick: way, like
for someone like me, at least I consider myself open-minded.
When I see a new flag [00:29:00] or I see a a flag, I, I, maybe not new is the correct term. Mm-hmm. But a flag I have not seen before. A lot of times I will go, oh, I wonder what that is representing. Yeah. Um, so it makes me curious to look into that and go, oh, okay, this is whatever. Right.
Michael Green: Yeah. And that's another awesome thing about being outward is being like, Hey, I'm here.
I exist. I'm taking up space. You should learn. You know, like if you don't know about our community, educate yourself. Mm-hmm. You know, not in a bad way, but more just like, let's all be broadening our minds and seeing the diversity of humanity and how we express ourselves, whether it's race, gender, sex. Yeah, definitely.
You know, busiest of those things, all of which have flags. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Thank you for answering. I thought that was, um, very well put Thanks.
Michael Green: And what's also cool is that like, even though I. A straight, cis white dude. I work with a lot of queer people here in the office, [00:30:00] but also Mm-hmm like partner so many across the
Michael Zarick: country.
You did just get off of the entire, you told me to come back later. You're like, you
not not come to me in pride months. I am a wash in both business and just, you know, uh, activity.
Michael Green: Yeah, and I think, I mean that's important too because it's like I I was, trying to fill a space with flags for good, um, that I saw in the market and I feel like the queer community also felt that.
And so after, back to the history of flags, forget a little bit after the BLM movement sort of died and we were into the election of 2020. American I was like, okay, I need to find something that's like if I, if flags for, if this two week pandemic project that won't end is gonna keep going, I need something that's not like event based, like of an election that comes every four years.
So then I was like, well what makes sense? Well, pride flags, you know, people are selling pride flags and they don't give a shit [00:31:00] about the community they're selling. You know, the opposite of that as well. So I was like, that makes the most sense. Let's, let's start making pride flags and, um, I don't know. We just found each other at the right time in the right place and now we're one of the largest
Michael Zarick: think
Michael Green: pride flag companies.
Uh, I think out there, I mean there's obviously the huge flag manufacturers out there that will never, ever touch, but I feel like the fact that if you look at just how busy we are, may and June are the two busiest months because of just with pride. the
Definitely. Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Um,
Um, where did. Where do you get your flags? I have a, I, this is a leading question. Okay.
Michael Green: Yeah. So they're all right now made in China. Mm-hmm. That's where 99% of flags are made, I would say. Mm-hmm.
the
Michael Zarick: Alright.
Michael Green: just so much
Michael Zarick: Follow up question. Yeah.
Michael Green: we
Michael Zarick: I told Kat I was gonna ask you this. Yeah.
When are we selling union made in the USA canvas [00:32:00] flags? So I
Michael Green: have, have you looked
Michael Zarick: into
Michael Green: canvas flags? Canvas? Like wallet, old style? No, it's too heavy. Oh, okay. Well, I mean, in the end it's like, I didn't know any of this when I started. Mm-hmm. The company, I mean, I didn't even go to business school. Sure. Indy when it comes to even making them in China, at first when I was, What they have when I started the company, I literally couldn't sleep for four or five nights mm-hmm.
All night. I was just how to make flags Google. Right, right. Google, I, I reached out to every American flag company and I said, how much would it cost for me to make you know this? And. It was gonna end up costing the customer like 80 to a hundred dollars to, to have an American made flag. Now would that be amazing quality?
Probably. But like my target market in the beginning was a kid who wants their first pride flag. Mm-hmm. A college student who wants to put a flag on their wall. Mm-hmm. Someone who wants to take a flag to a protest and it's probably gonna get trampled on or destroyed or [00:33:00] whatever. years want a hundred flag.
Yeah.
Um,
Michael Zarick: so do you
think there is a, I'm not, I'm not trying to make you make business decisions. No, no, no. And, and is there opportunity for you to like, offer that option?
Michael Green: Maybe. So what I was gonna say is tomorrow, tomorrow I think it's either No, it's next week. Sorry. I'm going to a webinar with the
people who make the printers and the whole thing is I'm about how feasible is it to make printed fabric in the United States,
because right now it's just not.
Mm-hmm. Um.
Michael Zarick: Yeah, that's right. The raw
Michael Green: materials, the inks, the labor, the sewing. I mean, there's just so much into it that like we are not the country that does that.
Michael Zarick: it Yeah.
Michael Green: And we, we could be not anymore, don't Not anymore. We, we gave it all away and that was a decision over time. Um, so would it be amazing?
Absolutely. Would it change our complete business model? Yes. And I, I would love it because, um,
just down the road, [00:34:00] Homefield. Yes. Right. So they're here in Indy They, you should get them on the podcast.
I need to talk to them.,
what they have a model is where they print on demand. So they have red shirts. It's like, well this red shirt could be a Nebraska shirt or it could be an IU shirt.
Mm-hmm. But before we print on it, it's just a red shirt. And so they don't have to hold as much inventory. Right. We are sitting there, you saw it. The shelves are full of all of these flags. It'd be amazing if we didn't have to print any of them until we knew what we needed to print. And that's the only way it could be.
It could work. But again, if you, if we're gonna be making flags here in the United States, you have to have enough demand to keep those things running 24/7. Mm-hmm. And no small company that's starting is gonna be able to do that right off the bat. Now that we're five years in, um, we might be able at that level to keep a printer going.
Yeah. To make its cost back and to keep sewer sewing and blah, blah, blah, blah. But [00:35:00] like,
yeah, it, it, that's the,
the the barriers of,
entry, you know,
Michael Zarick: I just noticed at this very moment,
sorry. Those are great. Thank you for I, yeah. I was really interested in, in, I'm a huge union guy. Yeah. I'm really into that. Um, never been in one, here but that's not a Um, I'm looking at this car, uh, in your, that is in the middle of your store. I, how did you get it in here?
Michael Green: Uh, we have a big door in the back. Oh, okay. Okay. Um, I literally sat inside of
it for those
Michael Zarick: who. Don't know. There it is. Like a Mini Cooper. Yes. And it's the, it got the Union Jack on it. Yeah. It's, it looks like something, uh, Austin Yeah Powers would drive.
Yep. But the tires, which is what I just noticed, it just says Hoosier on it, which I love. Yeah. Hoosier tires. Yeah. That's so funny.
Michael Green: Yeah. So I'm a big Mini Cooper nerd. Um, a big flag nerd. Mm-hmm. Um, and so when I saw this mini, I knew I wanted a mini in the store.
Michael Zarick: So goofy
Michael Green: because it's [00:36:00] the only car where it's totally acceptable to have a flag on the roof.
And this one's not even just the roof, it's the whole car is a flag. But, so I saw this one, and then the fact that it had Hoosier tires on it, I was like, oh my God. How did you get this? It was from South Dakota. This guy had it since he was 18 years old, since from 1961. Oh my God. So this old guy had kept this mini in his life and had, you know.
Converted it. So he basically had converted it into an autocross car. Uhhuh. Um, that's why it's got the slicks, the Hoosier slicks and
yeah, I mean, it's gutted in the, in the inside. It's rusted to hell. Like the, the floor looks like it was shot with the anti-aircraft gun. Um, but yeah, it's, it's great as a shelf and it gets people looking in the window and it makes me happy.
I'm, I basically made, I made this store my, that's why you do it, Uhhuh. This is my 15-year-old self's like dream room. It's got a ski gondola over here. Um, and my employees [00:37:00] were like, what do, why do you need to ski gondola? And I was like, I don't, but I want one. And I will figure it out when it's in
Michael Zarick: here. There's a, um, a YouTuber Tech YouTuber. Uhhuh named M-K-B-H-D. Yeah. He like, he makes a lot of money, but a lot of the money he makes, he like reinvests in his business. They bought like a robot arm. I saw that YouTube videos. Yes. It's like way too expensive. Jealous. He's so stupid. But his videos are so good, but he's like, yeah.
We use this for like ten second shots, but it looks awesome. And I'm like, you're a freak.
Yeah.
Yeah. great. Is there, uh, the I'm outta questions. I'm, you know, is there anything you wanna speak on? What are you feeling?
Michael Green: Let me speak on this city because if, if, if this is a podcast
to Indy m make and encourage third spaces in Indy
we can talk about,
Michael Zarick: uh, Indianapolis.
That's always, I actually, that is normally on the list. Where do you live? You live right down the street.
Michael Green: Fountain Square. Yeah. So I can like ride my bike here. Yeah. Yeah.[00:38:00]
Um, this city has so many problems.
Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.
Michael Green: And all of us know that it's not, we're, we're not, that's not a secret, but it has so much character and so many things to love. And once you find your crew, once you find your tribe here,
it's one of the coolest places I've ever lived. And I'm constantly reminded of that. Like I'll go to Bike Party. Have you seen Bike Party? I'm familiar. Okay. I mean, I did bike parties. Like this is the coolest thing I've done like in my life because this means old people, young people, high people, drunk people, like it's everyone.
Michael Zarick: Yeah.
Michael Green: On bikes that are lit up and we're just yelling Bike Party and taking over the streets. So cool. Mm-hmm. Right? Like what other cities doing stuff like that. Plus all the sports we have plus all like this city is so cool, but I don't think that we tell our own story. Well and I think I agree. [00:39:00] We need to start doing so and um,
so that's why I think this podcast is important.
That's why I think the flag and you know, everybody finding their place here is important. And I tell this to any group that I talk to. Like for instance, we had. We march in the pride parade and I get like one person of every identity to hold their flags. So, um,
that's really cool. Yeah. At the end of the I know you did that.
It's sweet. So in, at the end of the parade, I've got this group of like, awesome, like queer individuals from Indy and I, I tell them every year I'm like, guys, you gotta stick around. Like, I totally understand. If you're gonna leave, I don't blame you. Mm-hmm. It's hard to live here as a person being persecuted in this, in this city or in this state.
The city's awesome, but like this state is making it harder and harder in to live if you are not just straight cis white, you know? [00:40:00] Um, but we have to stick around because the more people that stay, They focus the more people make this place better. Definitely. Right? Like stay and invest, stay and fight. And if you can't totally understand no judgment.
Mm-hmm. But like the act of staying. And fighting for this is,
I don't um much to be, to be won here. Because like and more when, I moved Flags for Good here, it was a series of unfortunate events and I was gonna and bounce, like, I was vision I could go to Colorado, you know much,
I could go to much bluer pastures.
But in Texas and here in Indy,
the Flags For Good is making much more of a difference Wes so By being in a deep red state. Mm-hmm. And flying a rainbow flag outside. Mm-hmm. And making Yeah the, the, the, the pride [00:41:00] community here and investing in Indy Pride, like that's making much more of an impact than if I was in Boulder, Colorado or somewhere, a liberal fantasy land like California or something.
You know,
Michael Zarick: I'm gonna tell you a story. Mm-hmm.
This, know, not a major story, but I have, I publish, uh.
clips From the podcast. Mm-hmm.
And yesterday I had one go, like semi viral. I say semi 'cause it wasn't, you know, it's not crazy, but it's getting a lot of comments mm-hmm. As the first one to do so. Mm-hmm.
The video, the clip was about, um, closing certain streets to open it for pedestrians, either temporarily or permanently. Yeah. That type of thing. And first of all, this massive support in the comments. Absolutely. People love that. But there's also, of course, um, folks who
find that distasteful. Um, they focus, uh, I'm gonna frame it this way. They focus on the problems with it. They focus on attempts in the past [00:42:00] that have gone wrong, things like that.
Uh, they focus on violence that we see on the news every day. Um, and these are all like, well-founded concerns in my opinion. But I think, um, to truly improve a city.
And more specifically to truly improve Indianapolis,
we must have a more optimistic and and vision based outlook for what we desire. Mm. You can't focus on problems and issues.
You have to focus on solutions. Mm-hmm. And desires. Yeah. What you want. Yeah, absolutely. So I think you're framing of, Hey, we got problems, but so there's, so, I, I like to think of Indianapolis as deeply moldable we are positioned so well to Yeah. Yeah. Have great things, a really great city. Um, we just gotta have the, the vision to do so and the will to do so.
Um, we can do it. That's what that, that those comments really made me think is that these people are [00:43:00] right but they also need to be shown a different way.
Michael Green: Totally. And that made me think of another very important Hoosier. Pete Buttigieg recently on a podcast, I think said that the problem with at least the.
The left is that we want change, we want it so badly. But the problem is like, okay, if we're It like close the street or something like that, we try to solve all problems And once.
I'm very, I'm guilty of this.
Right. And so like, okay, well what that ends up happening is that the problem becomes so big that it ends up not happening at all.
Mm-hmm. And so the left is seen as, oh well they don't get anything done. Mm-hmm. And I think that's another thing. It's like we can't let perfect be the enemy of good and we can celebrate small steps. Like yes. Should we close the circle and make it pedestrian only?
Michael Zarick: We
Michael Green: Absolutely. I think everybody agrees that, but this the little spark, the little like quadrant that's closed off, that's a [00:44:00] step.
We should celebrate the hell out of that. Yeah. Yeah. And
the only reason the circle's not closed is 'cause of the Columbia Club. I think we all know
this. Someone,
Michael Zarick: someone commented that. Exactly. Yeah. Um. Um.
I got thoughts, but Yeah,
Michael Green: I know. And that's what's crazy. But, um, anyway. Yeah. I feel like, yeah, but how Driving cool would it be to have a circle be a complete pedestrian thing?
I mean, people go to Europe on vacation to go to walkable places and they're like, oh, this is so refreshing. Why do we, why do we live in America? It's like, well, yeah. When you're in Greenwood, Indiana and you're driving around and you have to cross the street to go to another place, and you have to get in your car to go across the street, that's not a good
user experience as a human being.
Mm-hmm.
It's great if you're a car, but you're not a car, you're a human. Mm-hmm.
And so this is the
Michael Zarick: other reason I,
Michael, this is the other reason I wanted to interview you. 'cause you're just like me. Yeah, yeah. I ride the bus, someone commented, they were like, the bus has failed, like the bus system has failed.
And I was like, [00:45:00] I ride the bus three times a week. It's great. Yeah. I, it's so good. I, it's comfortable. I, it gets me where I want to go. Uh, in a, a decently efficient way It would be better. But I, it won't get better unless I ride it. So
Michael Green: there you go. Um,
Michael Zarick: absolutely.
And I also, the other important thing is I, I take the bus time to read.
I don't, I'll tell you, I'm not stressed out on my phone. I am taking time to, to get learned, you know? Yep.
Michael Green: I was studied abroad in Australia and I remember that I took public transit every day for a long time, like an hour, maybe a day, and I didn't have service 'cause I, it was, you know, 2010 or whatever.
And so I, all I had was my Kindle on my, the Kindle app on my phone. And I, I read so many books. Mm-hmm. And public transit's amazing for that. Like, it's so much better for your psyche. 'cause that actually it was Hank Green, uh, John Green's brother who said the best way, like, proven scientifically, the best [00:46:00] way to improve your happiness is to move closer to your work and spend less time commuting.
Michael Zarick: I hate Driving.
Michael Green: Yeah. The more time you're in your car, you're alone, you're yelling at people, you're, you feel like you're, it's you against the world. You're stuck in traffic, you know, blah, blah, blah. You or you're at a high stress and the more time that you spend of your day doing that, you're going to have a worse time.
And just in life, like you're just gonna be overall less happy. Yeah. And so using public transit is the clear option. If you can't move your house, stop being in your car. Yep. You know, be around other humans.
Let someone else be stressed for you. Right. And like
that, the other part I love about public transit is it forces you to be with humanity.
You have to look at that grandma and smile. Mm-hmm. You have to see that crying baby. You have to be around people that aren't like you.
And, and, and see them and see what do they do? Oh, they're dressed differently. They're reading [00:47:00] a different book. They're speaking a different language. They're gonna work.
Oh, it's scary.
And what are they,
Michael Zarick: what's their work?
Michael Green: Right. It's, it's you, you realize that it's not scary. And I think that's, honestly my hypothesis is that the reason cities are much bluer than rural communities is because in cities you are forced to experience life and, and see the humanity in people that aren't like you.
Mm-hmm. So therefore you, when you vote, you're more likely to vote. And you know, like I said, I'm a straight, cis white guy, but do I vote for things that just benefit me? No. I do it for people that aren't like me. Mm-hmm. Because I can see their humanity and I can empathize. Mm-hmm. But yeah, if you live in the suburbs and you only, you know, or in the country and you only hang out with people like you
crazy, you know, blue haired trans people seem like this scary thing.
'cause you never met one. Mm. you know,
Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm. that's the most important. You've never met one.
Michael Green: Right.
And so it's, they're like a
oogie-boogie [00:48:00] man Mm-hmm
or whatever. The
knucks.
Michael Zarick: Yeah. Fire. All right. I have a question
from the previous guest,
uh, which I actually told you, which her name's Ruba Marshood Mm-hmm. She's the CEO of Indy Res.
You need to reach out to her. coming Indy Reads Love Indy Reads. Um,
Ruba asks,
what are you looking forward to doing?
Why haven't you done it yet?
Michael Green: That's a great question. Damn. Um,
are we talking like professionally like
Flags For Good?? Okay.
Um,
Michael Zarick: I,
the importance of, um, open-endedness I in these questions, I think really, making uh, both makes them more difficult, but also more fun.
Michael Green: Okay.
My employees will tell you that I have way too many business ideas,[00:49:00]
but in the end, I think they're ideas that go to what we were talking about, which is like making Indy a cooler place. A place where Indy were excited to be from and excited to visit.
Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.
Michael Green: Um,
I I have multiple of these ideas and I don't wanna give them all away.
Michael Green: Would Basically, here's my simple one that I would be totally It's so if someone stole and did,
have you ever been to Side Door Bagel?
I
Michael Zarick: have. I IU like Side Door Bagel,
Michael Green: line out the door all the time. Go to Bagel Deli and Broad Ripple.
I've been there once. They were like, we have an hour wait to get a bagel. Yeah, yeah.
Okay. Down here in Fountain Square, in Fletcher Place. We don't have a bagel place. Okay.
Oh, Amelia's doesn't sell bagels?
No. Oh Alright, so there's the problem. Mm-hmm.
The problem is that's the core of the person. Well, yeah,
but here's the best part.
part. I also want to create, uh, daytime raves,[00:50:00]
which is a thing that's coming.
Okay.
Michael Zarick: I was gonna, that's why I lit up. 'cause I saw that someone's doing like a coffee rave or something. Yes.
Michael Green: So it's a new thing that's happening where like EDM in the morning you wake up, you're, you know what I mean? Like, everybody's sort of vibing. I feel like I see the logo in my head. It's two bagels as a turntable, right?
Like it's, it's like rising and grind. I don't know. Like it's,
I don't know. I just want EDM music all the time That's, and I feel like solving the bagel problem in Fountain Square, but also
making it
Michael Zarick: not, know don't solve the housing crisis, solve the bagel crisis.
Michael Green: Small steps.
Um, but I feel like a cool place to go and hang out and vibe that's the alcohol aspect of, you that's the dance culture.
Um. I think it would be, what I'm looking for wanting to do is make only in Indy type things. Like what?[00:51:00]
You know, like, you like Hot Boys to start a bagel shop.
Sure. They're always bumping. I had hot boys for breakfast. I mean, sorry for lunch.
Like
Michael Zarick: dang.
Michael Green: would
absolutely, I mean, God, if they did it, I'd be there every day.
Michael Zarick: It's so funny.
Michael Green: Hot chicken sandwich on a bagel. I love
Michael Zarick: bagels. Um, so I went to iU Bloomington and at IU Bloomington there are, um, a large number of northeastern students. They come from Jersey, they come from New York. I've heard this. All this, all these things. A lot of it's the business school. Ah. Um, but just, you know, just happenstance.
Okay. Um, and you would hear it all the time. Oh, the bagels here aren't as good as New York aren't if as Jersey aren't as good as Boston. And one it's annoying.
But two, they're right. Yeah, they're right. That's really annoying. So if you could figure out how to make a good freaking bagel, which actually Side Door Bagel makes a good bagel.
They're great.
Michael Green: Yeah, they're great.
Um, but I've asked them, I was like, Hey, are you wanting to franchise? Like you want to expand? I think you, obviously you have the demand. Mm-hmm. [00:52:00] Why don't you just pop over to Fountain Square? And they were like, Nope.
So I was like, okay, that's funny. Here's my other idea.
Cheese, uh, chopped cheese from New York. Another thing, we don't have it, but
anytime I go to, you
Michael Zarick: just want a, you just want a New York bodega here. That's really all
Michael Green: of my, yes. All of my
problems that I'm trying to fix are food related, but hey, food is a whole part of culture. You know,
Michael Zarick: food is also the, like one of the hardest businesses to get into.
Michael Green: Believe me, i, you don't see me running a restaurant. I don't know anything about that. Some why I haven't done it. That's the answer. Second part of that question, as long as not, that's
why I haven't done it.
Michael Zarick: As long as it's not a Cunningham bagel shop
that's, Yeah. We're haters here.
Michael Green: Okay.
Michael Zarick: Well, not really, but.
No.
Yeah, I just think that's a common complaint is they don't want any more Cunningham restaurants.
Hmm. Um,
thank you for answering. Yeah. But why haven't you done it yet?
Michael Green: Well, because the restaurant business is a terrible business to be in.
Michael Zarick: But you want to do it,
Michael Green: you can see that my passion for it is much more [00:53:00] about the idea. Yeah. And the vibe and creating the space. I don't have a passion for bagels,
you know, like, so I think that's my problem is that like I have these ideas, but like I don't have the passion for the thing that will make it successful
Let me hit you
Michael Zarick: with a, this is something I do actually think will work if we put resources towards it. It is so difficult to start a business. It is so difficult if, uh, at the very beginning of this podcast, actually pre podcast, I would ask people regularly. 'Cause I was asking business owners. How did you start your business? Mm-hmm. Not a single one.
And I'm assuming you included, let me speak on it. Not a single one these people could give me a, an answer because that's not how businesses are formed.
It's true. They just it just appear. Um, for you, you're like, this is my two week COVID project, but now you own a whole storefront. These things like this.
[00:54:00] Mm-hmm. Um,
finding a way to create,
um, this would be a city project to create a space for micro retail. Mm. Where you are supporting, you say, Hey, we're gonna give you cheaper rent we're gonna do mm-hmm. Some, some extra resource. Yeah. To, we're gonna make it easy for you to get an LLC or whatever the thing is.
Yeah. Finding a way to support these, um, people to do what they want to start a bagel business, a raving bagel business.
Um,
I'm, I'm imagining like.
A small warehouse, you know, something like, yeah, you'd have to give
Michael Green: them all the tools you
Michael Zarick: want like a small, uh, micro retail space similar to, is it the Factory Arts District?
Yeah. Or the Stutz. So, but like for whatever,
Michael Green: so there is a space in the Stutz that the city designates as a small business incubator. Mm-hmm. So you, oh God, what's it called?
Michael Zarick: But I'm [00:55:00] imagining a whole arena.
Yeah, no, you're
Michael Green: right. Like this is very specific to like retail, where like if you Mm-hmm a small retail, they can, they will give you like two months or three months at this space, um, to test it out.
But no, problems you're right. And actually another
Michael Zarick: Because
Michael Green: had is concerns you know, I created Flags for Good.
I didn't know what I was doing the whole time. Still don't really, um, but like, then I met my friend The runs Out Patch and they make
patches.
We.
We're running parallel paths, solving the same problems, buying the same software
licenses, sharing
Michael Zarick: Yeah, sharing.
You're not sharing the information that, like, this is the other thing about the starting a business. Yeah. There, everyone figures out the same issues. Right. There's no shared, um, understanding.
Michael Green: Exactly. And so I thought, okay, what if
maybe the next step for Flags for Good
is to create like four good brands.
And basically what we do is you're a small startup and you're doing [00:56:00] something that's running parallel paths with us and Out Patch and I don't care what it is, let's call it SOX or whatever. Mm-hmm. But like same thing, you know, you have ethics, you have a social good component. All you need is to solve the marketing problem, the fulfillment problem, the, the supply chain problem, blah, blah, blah.
Well, what if, Mm-hmm what if we all combined our efforts because like what I ended up having to build mm-hmm. When I started Flags For Good is a giant fulfillment operation. Yeah. That's what's going on behind time this flag. And like, I don't know how to do that. I just ended up doing it outta my smear bedroom. And growing.
And growing. So what if we didn't have to solve
Michael Zarick: Indy
Michael Green: problems? What if we said, Hey, you're a small business that wants to do fulfillment, join up to this conglomerate, this co-op, whatever it is. We have a fulfillment operation that you can plug right into.
Michael Zarick: Yeah.
Michael Green: And we're already like, you know, maybe we buy a warehouse.
Maybe it's solar. So boom, now you're eco, now you're, you know. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
So making it I'm for small businesses to
get [00:57:00] started by solving a lot of those problems
that no one really knows. I'm challenge you a little bit, I'm gonna challenge you a little bit.
Michael Zarick: Because Because then you get into the
concern. This is my personal concern, maybe not yours.
Um, I worry about like power structures.
Yeah. Things like that.
The maintaining of relationships. Mm-hmm. The fairness, inequity, things like that. Totally. Um, so I think that's a,
it's a problem to solve.
Michael Green: Totally. Yeah. I love, and I don't know a thing about it
and like, actually I started looking into, you ever looked at how Japanese companies work.
I have no clue.
Yeah. It's crazy. So if, if you're interested in power structure and stuff, look into that. Because a lot of the, a lot of the Japanese companies own each other and they own bits of each other. Yeah. And that way they're completely diversifying their risk. 'cause like for instance, where I came it's in College Station, um, there's a giant Fuji film thing.
Mm-hmm. And I was like, why the hell is Fujifilm here? They're making vaccines.
Why is Fujifilm making vaccines? Because that's what they [00:58:00] do. Yeah. Like all of these companies own bits of each other,
and that way they're completely diversified and they're all kind of part of a network of ownership. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Look into that. It's interesting. They
Michael Zarick: Japan has a totally different, uh, social culture than we into,
too. That's just a, which is a, which is a wider and longer conversation. I don't think we have time time for Yes, for sure. Um,
Michael Green,
what question would you like to ask
the next Third Space Indy guest?
Michael Green: Who is it?
Michael Zarick: That's a good question.
It doesn't matter.
Michael Green: You're right. It doesn't matter.
Michael Zarick: It does not have to be community focused. It does not have to be flag focused. It can be about whatever you feel in your heart.
Michael Green: Indy
Michael Zarick: I love this. This is cool. Um,
I'm also just trying to remember who Oh, I know who it is. I'm not gonna tell you though.
Michael Green: Okay.
I want to ask what
what is your deepest [00:59:00] identity, your core identity? Whether Well sexuality, where you're from, your race, whatever, and how do you express it? That's a banger. And
Michael Zarick: I, it's very topical to the person I'm talking to. Awesome. Now can you tell me who it is? Well, not very,
um,
oh, I, I guess that's fine. Yeah. Yeah.
It's Bo Turner. Do you know who Bo Turner is? Uhhuh. She runs, um, she's, uh, I don't want to misrepresent her, but I, I believe she's a, she was adopted from China when she was one years old. Whoa. So she's a,
uh, is it A-A-A-P-I? Yeah. find Chinese adoptee. Oh, that's a perfect question. And she's an entrepreneur.
She's, she runs, um, her pri the reason I'm talking to her is 'cause she runs, um, local dating, like speed dating events.
Michael Green: Oh, Bo Turner? Yes. Yeah.
So she's the one doing the coffee rave.
Yes.
Yeah. I know. I'm gonna be outta town for you. I'm pissed.
'cause for months I've been saying we need this to happen. And then I saw her present at Creative Mornings and I was like, oh my God, it's happening.
And I'm like, I'm of town. God damnit. so she, she's still have a good answer to it.
Cool. And I really need to, I need to connect with her. [01:00:00] Because she,
Michael Zarick: You
Michael Green: I mean,
Michael Zarick: me at third space
Michael Green: at Indy What she's doing is
that Hey, or so
Michael Zarick: she's, you'll hear
Michael Green: from her,
Michael Zarick: I
Michael Green: her here do a
high five. Oh, I end the episode with high fives Please okay.
So yeah, then edit it to, I can high five her heart
so
Michael Zarick: in@thirdspaceIndy.com But I'll, I'll have to make sure I settle the other side. Um,
We end it again, but, um, oh, I have one last question. Yeah. I'm gonna yell it to the back. When are you hiring
Cat? Full time.
You're
Michael Green: not gonna get in trouble.
No, I, we love Kat.
I thought Kat was going to school and that's why. Oh, see, okay. I, I started
Michael Zarick: the conversation. See. Oh,
Michael Green: okay. Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Okay. Well, uh, Thank you for having me Yeah. Or I guess thank you for coming on. Yeah, for sure. Thank you for having me in your store. Um, Mr. Michael Green.
Where can we [01:01:00] find you at Flags for Good? On everything. On everything.
Michael Green: Uh, where's where the store located? In Virginia Avenue. Yeah. Virginia. Yeah. 6 4 6 Virginia Avenue. Right across from Blue Beard and Calvin Fletcher and Amelia's, um, in probably the coolest little corner of Indy you can find. Yeah. Uh, so happy to be here and that we found the space.
It's a
Michael Zarick: beautiful space. Come see the little mini Cooper with the Hoosier tires.
Michael Green: Yep. Come sit in the ski gondola and shop for stickers in there.
Michael Zarick: Yeah. Thank you Michael Green for coming on the podcast. If you are interested in any sort of flag, even if they don't have it in the store, I'm sure Michael would be happy to talk to you about getting it.
Yeah. As long as it fits within the scheme of the business. Yep. As long as it's for good, for good. And thank you so much for watching or listening to Third Space Indy You can follow me at Third Space Indy on instagram.com. Or Or your app, whatever. Uh, also I write a weekly blog. It's generally around a thousand [01:02:00] words.
Please go read it. I work really hard. I try to put my heart and soul into it. And you can also put your email in at thirdspaceIndy.com and I will send you an email that includes the blog, that includes the show notes, and links to listen every week Monday morning. I'm working on my outros. Thank you so much for listening to Third Space Indy and I hope to share the next episode with you.
Michael, gimme another high five
Hell yeah, banger.
Michael Green: yeah. Banger.