Ep. 16 - Tony Nguyễn Wiederhold - Director of Indy Community Yoga
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Intro
In today’s day and age, when something is free, it more often than not comes with a different cost. Nothing could be further from the truth when it comes to Indy Community Yoga and its current leader, Tony Nguyễn Wiederhold.
As they say at every ICY practice, there is nothing to achieve and nothing to attain when you attend. Nothing is asked of you, and I think that is amazing at the current day and time, where we are expected to always “be present” and give all of ourselves to the activity. At an ICY practice, all that is expected is that you are true to yourself, and even then, Tony likes to say, “don’t ‘should’ on yourself or your friends, it’s quite rude.” I hope you enjoy the conversation Tony and I shared together.
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Production learnings
Story Time
Episode Summary
Episode Transcript
Important links and mentions
Tony Nguyễn Wiederhold
Production learnings from the episode
The day Tony and I recorded was quite windy. Frederick Douglas park is also fairly flat, so there is very little to break the wind. This strong wind is very present in the audio and adds what I personally think is quite a pleasant white noise. I would be interested to hear from anyone who reads this and then listens to see if you thought it was noticeable or if it faded into the background for you.
The big news of the week is that after Tony and I spent some time walking around the park and deciding where to record, getting comfortable, doing a sound check, and everything I have on my checklist, I hit record.
After we were finished, I noticed a couple of things. I noticed that my phone’s battery was hit quite hard. I noticed that when I tried to transfer the video to my laptop, it was taking quite a long time. I then noticed that my phone was not charging quickly and was overheating while it was charging and transferring the video. I then noticed that the video was 3 hours long, which I initially thought was a bug. I also noticed that my phone was slow and the storage was low. So to cap it off, I finally realized I had recorded the entire interview in slow motion. So I just decided, rather than dealing with 3 hours of footage and speeding it up to normal and the giant file, I moved on with my life and deleted it. Certainly an adventure. Dust in the wind. Add another thing to think about when setting up a recording.
Writing heading
The reason I like Tony is that he asks really good questions, and more generally, when I say things or share stresses, he has responses that often reframe my thinking in a pleasant way. For example, during the podcast, we spend a good chunk of time talking about what it means to be religious, often a charged topic, but he shares his experience in what I perceive as a meaningful way.
Another thing I love about Tony is how he is truly and deeply human and cares for humanity truly and deeply. Things I like to think of myself as well. After we were done recording and walking to our respective vehicles, Tony shared with me that he is “expanding what he considers a person.”
“If I think of ants, spiders, and all animals as people, I will make a more conscious decision to treat them with respect and avoid exploiting them.” I find this thought interesting and likely true. We stop thinking of humans as people regularly, but this, of course, triggers the question, “Tony, are you vegan?” I knew his answer was ‘no’, but I had a clear follow-up.
“So you eat people?” I said.
“I suppose that does mean I eat people,” Tony said while laughing.
Of course, this is all in jest, but the sentiment remains. Even if we are conscious of who we are treating as people with respect and dignity, it is still difficult to avoid exploitation and mistreatment. Of course, the first step to this is being conscious of your choices and how what you do ripples outward and affects others. I try to keep this at the forefront of my mind, and I know Tony does as well.
Along these same lines, I posed a question to Tony. ‘Is lab-grown meat vegan?’ Not imitation meat like Beyond burgers, but real and true lab-grown meat. This is gaining popularity, and the technology is developing further. If veganism has the goal of reducing animal exploitation, removing it outright, I personally would think that lab-grown meat could be considered vegan. But I am not vegan now, and I don’t have the perspective of someone who would think about this on a deeper level. I’d be interested in your thoughts.
Once again, I hope you enjoy the conversation Tony and I shared, and I hope to see you at an Indy Community Yoga practice someday. It’s free now and in perpetuity.
Episode Summary
Exploring the Essence of Indy Community Yoga with Tony Wiederhold
In this episode of Third Space Indy, host Michael Zarick engages in a profound conversation with Tony Wiederhold of Indianapolis Community Yoga (ICY). They discuss the origins, philosophy, and unique practices of ICY, emphasizing the importance of creating a non-hierarchical, inclusive space where individuals can truly be themselves. The episode covers topics like the significance of free and accessible wellness practices, the benefits of silent meditation retreats, and the personal journey of Tony as a community leader and caregiver. The discussion also touches on broader themes like the essence of religion, cooperative living, and the power dynamics in our daily lives.
00:00 Introduction and Initial Thoughts on ICY
00:54 Meet the Host and Guest
01:27 Tony's Journey with ICY
02:44 Understanding ICY Practices
06:10 Personal Reflections and Experiences
09:02 The Concept of Practice and Leadership
13:39 The Evolution of ICY
19:45 Silent Practice and Retreats
27:53 Defining the Third Space
29:36 Exploring the Concept of Third Spaces
30:02 The Role of Anger in Personal Growth
30:40 The Importance of Expressing Displeasure
31:15 Reflecting on Childhood Third Spaces
31:55 Revisiting the Initial Conversation
32:05 Defining Religion and Spirituality
34:29 The Dialogue of Zhàozhou and Nánquán
37:52 Personal Interpretation of Religion
39:27 The Influence of Upbringing on Beliefs
41:57 The Natural Inclination Towards Cooperation
43:31 Tyler Childers and the Concept of Dharma
44:26 Love Island: A Study in Surveillance
49:18 The Need for Cooperative Living
52:45 Final Thoughts and Reflections
Episode Transcript
Tony ICY
===
[00:00:00] Tony: you asked why I kept doing it and it was, that first practice on April Fool's Day is like, wow. There's like, this is great. Like what? Why isn't this normal?
Why isn't this how it always is? And it was just an experiment. ICY is still an experiment
It, it's a practice and it's an experiment. It's not conforming to a particular thing. And one honest answer is it was what I needed. I needed a place where I could go and just be myself. And it's been very clear over the years that other people like that also and other people find that nourishing morning practice for me, It's like Breakfast for my Soul.
[00:00:54] Michael Zarick: Hello. My name is Michael Zarick This is Third Space Indy This is a podcast where we talk to community builders, leaders and organizers. And today I think a practicer. And today I'm talking to Tony.
[00:01:11] Tony: Tony. Wiederhold
[00:01:13] Michael Zarick: . Wiederhold Tony Wiederhold who is, I don't know what the proper term is ever, but somebody who partakes
in Indianapolis Community yoga. The main progenitor of it, maybe?
Um,
[00:01:26] Tony: Indy community
yoga
[00:01:27] Michael Zarick: Indy community yoga, and just a quick background about how I learned about, uh, Tony is the, when I released my very first episode, I received a mysterious email someone named Andra Andra.
[00:01:43] Tony: Andra I think
[00:01:44] Michael Zarick: Andra and. they were like, you should go talk to Tony of ICY and this other guy who actually will be on later on.
Um, and I reached out to you, uh, through the website, by your email and you said, Hey, let's do a call. And I have never had an hour long introduction email or introduction phone call with somebody that was more pleasant than the hour long call that we shared months and months ago. Um, how sweet. So yeah, that, and then I just like you were this ethereal person, I had no idea what you looked like or anything.
Um, and I just would be like, oh man, that call with Tony was so great. I used to say that so much to my wife. Um, but anyways, since then, I've since attended a yoga
practice but before I talk too much, Tony, how are you Doing
[00:02:38] Tony: doing?
very well.
Yeah. Yeah. What a day.
Yeah. What a day. It's, I've asked for a better day than
[00:02:42] Michael Zarick: It is a quite nice day.
Um, so to start off, can you tell me And
the listeners a little bit about ICY
maybe a little bit
[00:02:54] Tony: Yeah. Um, what is Indy Community Yoga? Well, we're, worker run, cooperative, and we have lots of meditation practices, movement practices, um, but mainly we're a place where people can come and just be themselves. I think maybe everybody who's listening is aware of how often you have to mask or pretend to be what somebody else wants you to be. And, uh, what we are is a place where, uh, one, there's no cost to attend our practices but two, you can just be with other people and learn who you are.
So
[00:03:43] Michael Zarick: yeah. Yeah, that's, and then, uh, I'll tell a little bit about why our original phone call so, um, important to me.
But first I'd like to ask you a question. Okay.
Which and I'm interested to see how you take this, but who are you?
[00:04:01] Tony: Who am I? Oh, wow. Um, wow, what a, what an enormous question that I don't really know how to answer Um,
I think I'm trying to figure that out myself. Uh, a lot of the times, I mean, right now my, my role on earth, uh, and in this village is, um, just trying to be, uh, a caring person, like really a human. And, you know, in a broad sense, I feel like that means somebody who is amongst other people and, um, kind of a conduit for care.
So, you know, right now I spend a lot of my caring for my mother. Her 85th birthday is on Monday. coming Monday. This, this coming Monday is her 85th birthday. Happy birthday
[00:05:08] Michael Zarick: Tu, yeah. Tu. Yeah.
[00:05:10] Tony: Tu. Um, yeah. And she has advanced dementia and I am her primary caregiver. so, you know, I, she's also my teacher in many, many and I realize from taking care of her, um, how much she has taught throughout my life. really Buddhist things throughout my life, but transmitted through culture and mm-hmm. The way she talks you know, the way she was honest, about the way she felt about so, you know, that's, identity through action.
Um, and, um,
yeah, I don't know who else a great answer. Yeah. Thanks.
[00:06:02] Michael Zarick: I, I
[00:06:02] Tony: I knew
[00:06:03] Michael Zarick: you
would have, uh,
angle. I, I, but also I think everyone who answers that question has an interesting angle. Yeah. so I don't remember the day, but months and months ago, we had a phone call and we, I was, I don't, there's the common turn of phrase that you don't remember when you first meet someone.
You don't remember what was said, but you remember how they made you feel.
Mm.
And that's sort of what I think about in relation to our original phone call. Um. I just felt after it was about an hour, maybe an
and a half,
that I felt so deeply connected to you in like a, in just an odd said so many things that I was just said.
Yes, Tony gets it. Uh, and I was so inspired and I'm so happy that you're here in this moment now to, to share a, a conversation. Um, but you talked about your old job with Eli Lilly and how soul-sucking that was. Um, and you talked um, the importance of offering, um, free spaces for people and the longest running queer yoga practice in Indianapolis, Indiana,
in the country.
[00:07:16] Tony: Uh, as far as we could find. But what's
[00:07:19] Michael Zarick: the, what's the the state or the, well, I mean, if
[00:07:23] Tony: you look around and Google like queer yoga It's very difficult to find. In-person. Queer yoga. Actually a second one. Uh, there was another one here in town that started sometime after we started ours, and recently there's been another one that's popped Um, and I think that's wonderful that, that's happened.
uh,
I'm, I'm, I forgot what your
No, just, just
[00:07:49] Michael Zarick: more, there's no specific question. Sort of a reflection on, uh, our original conversation. We talked about what it means to be religious. Yeah. Um, because you brought up that you were a Buddhist and I thought that was really interesting as someone who doesn't have a lot of experience with that.
Yeah. Um, and just, you captured me so deeply in that, in that time, so I was so happy to, uh, just, I was so happy to exist in the same city as you. 'cause atta like an attainable uh, person
in that. Oh my God. Thanks. Tony's here.
[00:08:17] Tony: It's a delight to be with you too, Michael.
[00:08:18] Michael Zarick: Um, and I have since attended, uh, and I would like you to it's called this, but I've since attended a practice.
Two times maybe three, I don't remember. Um, and I plan and of course they're all free. So could you share with people maybe one why they're called a practice? 'cause I don't think most people know.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. 'cause
um, not talking to you the first time. And then maybe a little bit about, um, what you do during it.
Because when I say yoga, along with saying practice people have a certain image in their mind maybe of what you do but I think maybe it's a little different
[00:08:57] Tony: Yeah. So, uh, why do we say practice? It's it's practice rather than class. And the reason for that is we have a philosophy that we're practicing with you. We're practicing with each other, we're not teaching too. And, uh, that has to do with power really. And, um, if you look around.
Our current place in time, power dynamic. There are always hierarchies, there's always a boss, um, which is sort of interesting to consider living in a place that calls itself a democracy, but where does democracy actually live in our lives? Is it at home? Is it at work? I mean, certainly in my, uh, previous workplace that was not a democracy.
Um, and I, I don't know how many people's workplaces are actually democracies and of course there's, politics as, but so, so we really, in a lot of ways try to cut the knees out from, um, from bosses and bossing. And that includes the, the power dynamic of a teacher who is exalted and has special knowledge that makes them superior to a student. Um, so that's why we say practicing with, we're all on the same level. we're all practicing
together.
And then
what, um, what
[00:10:39] Michael Zarick: are you doing
[00:10:40] Tony: at
[00:10:41] Michael Zarick: the practice
[00:10:41] Tony: as well?
Yeah. Well, I mean, you're speaking of the, the Sunday movement and meditation for, are they different? Uh, actually really, I've only been to that, so I really don't know.
Yeah. So Movement and Meditation for Collective Liberation is, you know, it, it's a three part practice. And, the first part is a movement practice in that particular practice, it's Qigong. we like to do accessible movement a lot of people with different abilities And then we have our seated meditation component and, uh, then after that mindful dialogue, sort of the through line to all this is practicing no pretending there's nothing to achieve, there's nothing to attain. Mm-hmm. about coming into contact who you are. Now, it's kind of going back to your original question to me, which is clever.
Uh, you know, it, it, it, who you are is different than maybe who you think you are and what, who other people think you should be and who you think you should be you think you were. Mm-hmm. And so the whole practice is how can, how can we go to the place before your idea
what you're actually feeling
and what's actually happening
That's practice.
[00:12:09] Michael Zarick: And the two words you use it's acquire and attain
my,
[00:12:14] Tony: nothing to achieve, achieve, and attain, and there's
nothing to
[00:12:17] Michael Zarick: that.
I think those two things I've been thinking about a lot recently, maybe not in those exact terms, but this sort of, these expectations we set for ourselves. I think I get a lot of stress actually from going to your yoga, yoga practice and like feeling like, I have no idea. Like you, you're so fluid in your movement, you're so, um, is it lion's breath?
Or like when you're sticking your tongue out like that, we can do it again. I get, I get
self conscious about that.
and do I feel this way? And I just love that you always re-emphasize, achieve, do. There's nothing to achieve and nothing to attain because. Like, realistically, it doesn't matter.
It's just I'm there, um, in the moment with all the other people who are there for the similar reasons And even my wife attended and she, we did the meditation circle. Yeah. And had fallen asleep in the middle of it. Great. Um, and herself got a little like, self-conscious about that like, that's exactly what you should do.
Like that's, uh, there's nothing should do. Uh,
was That's right. That is correct.
[00:13:25] Tony: Don't should on yourself or others. It's rude.
Don't
[00:13:28] Michael Zarick: should on yourself so what is it, um, there's so many good questions to ask.
I got a lot
What I got a lot of time. What is it that, um, keeps driving you forward in this do you
return every Saturday
[00:13:49] Tony: That's a really good question actually. Uh, what day is this?
Is today the fifth? September 5th? Say, let's say it's September 5th. Um, well, two days ago, um, was. The ninth anniversary of the very first outdoor practice that I led outside. And it's, it's sort of funny to think how, what is now Indy community yoga and, um, you know, all the, the collaboration that's happening from community members who come together through our Um, it started with a conversation I had with the person who was cutting my hair at Great Clips. It's just like, you know what I'd really like to, I don't know why yoga costs $20. What if we just, what if I just like offered a practice outside that was free? Yeah. And that anybody could go to, we could be outside.
I mean, a lot of, at that time, I don't think there was any yoga practices or any movement practices that were happening outside. Um, and she's like, oh yeah, that sounds great. Let me, let me talk to my sister. I think she'd be interested. Like, that's how it started. It started as just like, okay, let's just go do that Um. And then, uh, in the, we didn't have another practice in until the spring. At that time, I was leading practices, yoga practices and meditation practice at Lilly sort of a thing to do with my colleagues. Um, and um, yeah, the, the next practice was on April Fool's Day 2017 actually, which is a really, that's what I actually considered to be like the anniversary,
of the birthday. Mm.
because that was the first of consecutive. really? She's an April fool. Wow. Shout out to Pat Yeah. Um, yeah. I wish Pat a happy birthday on April Fool's Uh, yeah, I mean, you asked why I kept doing it and it was, uh. You know, that first practice on April Fool's Day is like, wow. There's like, this is great. Like what? Why isn't this normal?
Why is, why isn't this how it always is? Um, and it was just an experiment. I mean, ICY is still an
experiment always Yeah, it is practice, exactly. Yeah. I've caught on Yeah. It, it's a practice and it's an experiment. It's not conforming to a particular thing. Although, you know, our forms, our practice forms for meditation are, are traditional.
Mm-hmm. Um, and the way we train folks to, um, lead practices is, is also in many ways traditional. Um, but, um, I, I guess, and, and one honest answer is it was what I needed. I needed a place where I could go and just be myself. Um, and um, it's been very clear over the years that other people like that also and other people find that nourishing, um, morning practice for me, which is every day, uh, we have 7:00 AM meditation, 8:00 AM meditation.
It's like Breakfast for my Soul. And that's online, right? It's online, yeah. Online and free. Go to our website. Um, but yeah, it's just, you know, we're sitting in the quiet together, not no pretending, you know, we're all in our different homes that on for the online practices. Um, but then we openly talk about what's going on in the world.
Right now we're reading Dean Spade's mutual aid book together, and then we, we have conversation about what's happening in our lives after that. It's just like really nice.
[00:17:50] Michael Zarick: Yeah. To
[00:17:50] Tony: be seen.
[00:17:52] Michael Zarick: your point about it being sort and, and always ever changing, even the two, remember if it's two or three and it really doesn't matter, but the two that I'm thinking of, uh, practices that I attended were very different.
Not only because of the activities that went on but I sat that morning, the weather that day, the um, people that were there and present, but also the third act, if you want to call it that. So we did the movement and then we did the meditation. And then time we did a mindfulness walk where we walked silently, which is very pleasant.
Um, led by Marissa and you
Yes.
that's always the question I have. Is it a leader?
[00:18:40] Tony: We do say practice leader. Okay. Uh, but you know the word leader has been.
Sort of co-opted, uh, by exploitative forces to mean boss. Mm-hmm. But a lead, a boss isn't a leader. Um, you're only leading if people are walking with you. If nobody's walking with you, you're just coercing them. And that's a very different thing. That's being a boss,
that's not being a leader.
[00:19:07] Michael Zarick: Um, so the, we, the mindfulness walk and then the next time we did the, I forget what you call it, the conversation. Mindful dialogue. Mindful dialogue. Um, and we did one-on-one and that was really interesting. And there's Two other versions that I haven't experienced yet.
Three.
four total.
[00:19:26] Tony: Four flavors. Yes. Four flavors. I'm never, rifle dialogue. Correct.
[00:19:30] Michael Zarick: um, but just being in the the one other person who I painfully do not, have been the other Anna. There's lots of Annas
have I've learned.
You
[00:19:42] Tony: a lot of Annas.
um,
[00:19:43] Michael Zarick: Now
I'm actually really glad we're talking today because next week you're going on the I-C-Y ICY retreat. No, that's in October. Yes. Oh, October. I, I read the 12th and I
was like, that's next week, October 12th. Um,
[00:20:03] Tony: go to website.
[00:20:05] Michael Zarick: Yeah. Can you share to me about like what it
means to be able to partake and provide a full day of, I guess its practice a full day of, of
[00:20:26] Tony: Yeah. Well, I mean, it's mostly not yoga. Oh, true. It's, it's, um, our, our retreats are primarily silent. Walk seated and walking meditation practices. and, um, yeah, our, our one day retreats,
uh,
what was the question again?
You
[00:20:47] Michael Zarick: What it mean, what it, what does it mean to you to be able to provide that space for people and especially in a full day sort of format Um,
it's, going further beyond what you do on a weekly basis
[00:21:00] Tony: Yeah. You know, a lot of what we do has to do with accessibility and, um, know, I, I first encountered retreat practice as a sort of thing that happens far away that you pay a lot of money to attend. Um, so there are a lot of these days, sort of professional retreat centers that offer, uh, you know, four fee spiritual retreats are a lot of those The other way you can do that sort of thing is traditional way, which is go to a monastery in Asia, uh, or there are monasteries in the US that do it also, that offer this sort of thing too But it's still, so again, going away to, practice in a very intense, it's a very intense experience. locally here, uh, back in 2018, I began practicing at the Indianapolis Zen Center and they still offer, uh, or day practices once a week, or not once a But, um, I felt that, uh,
I felt that it was important to create, like, offer the traditional retreat practices in a way that was maybe less intimidating. Uh, offered a little bit lower barrier to entry so that, you know, there are a lot of people who practice meditation all sorts of ways Um, but to practice together with 40 other people, um, and, you know, just for everyone who's eliciting silent practice means no talking, no reading, no writing, no eye contact.
So, uh, to practice existing together in that way without the expectation of being viewed, without the expectation of having to make small talk without the expectation of looking anyone in the eye, but just existing together in care, eating nice food. This is an experience that, uh, it's very difficult to find in daily life Um. And, uh, yeah, I don't know. I guess it feels really great to be able to do that. And you know, our fall retreat is going to be number 23. 23. It's our 23rd retreat. Yeah. It's crazy. And, um, yeah, I mean it's, it's something that, it's offering a traditional practice here in central Indiana and um, again, you know, a lot of people find it compelling. I don't know if I answered your question. I forgot what it is already.
[00:24:04] Michael Zarick: Nothing to achieve and nothing to change.
[00:24:05] Tony: Nothing to achieve. Nothing to change. You've been listening the
[00:24:10] Michael Zarick: and to the point of silent practice. Is that what we call it? Silent practice? Yeah. That is really difficult.
It very difficult. 'cause the only time I've done it, consciously is with you at, uh, the practice on Sunday.
And we
[00:24:28] Tony: on Sunday. Um, well, we sit for 20 and then we walk for five
usually and
sit for another
[00:24:38] Michael Zarick: I'm thinking of when we went
on the mindfulness walk, sorry. Oh Um, and walking around with people and consciously not looking at their eyes, not looking at any writing on their clothing.
There's signage on the trails Avoiding eye contact first of all very difficult. Yeah. But also very, it's interesting the processes in your brain that you hit, um, when you're not being berated by the, the outside world in that way. Um Like even I'm looking at your shirt right now, which we talked about earlier Yeah. yeah.
Yeah. Uh, just the word pizza on there is like, it's attacking me, it's in bright colors,
um,
and makes me hungry. yeah, just like sitting in existing in space with no, no thing to create thoughts for than your own thinking.
is really
[00:25:39] Tony: Well, yeah. And, and part of that, so yeah, you, you, I mean, I think you just mentioned the voice inside. And the thing is, there's a part of our brain that forms concepts. So anytime, anytime I say a word, what, what I'm actually doing is trying to translate what I am experiencing, which is the feelings in my body. And I'm, I'm, I'm translating it into a, uh. A word now, to do that, I have to make a concept. And the thing about concept is it's all, at best, it is a reflection of a fragment of It cannot be the whole thing. Uh, and, you know, it's really miraculous that I can say anything. And you can hear that like, flapping my lips and there's like air vibrating and the vibration goes into your ear and then like, you have any clue what I'm experiencing Like, that's magic. But it's also, is also fraught because like if at best it's a reflection of a fragment, at worse, it's totally and it can muddle your own. Like my, I'll speak, I'll use I pronouns, my own experience So the whole practice of. Silence is, it's an opportunity to disengage that Just like, you know, we're always like gripping that part of the brain, just allowing it to soften a Then I have a chance at answering your initial question of who am I and what am I doing? What, what is this? What am I really doing? How am I fooling myself?
[00:27:29] Michael Zarick: Yeah.
[00:27:29] Tony: Because if I'm fooling myself, I'm definitely fooling you or trying and, um, you know, who am I when I'm not trying to be what somebody else
wants me to be or who I want me to be?
[00:27:43] Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.
Who is that?
That's a really interesting framing
of, of using Yeah.
[00:27:50] Tony: Michael,
[00:27:53] Michael Zarick: what is a third space to you?
[00:27:56] Tony: What is the third space me? I, uh,
[00:27:59] Michael Zarick: do you know what a third space
[00:28:00] Tony: Yeah. I, I first heard that term, I don't know, 10 years ago. Maybe
[00:28:05] Michael Zarick: you're ahead of the curve. Yeah.
Sort of.
[00:28:07] Tony: I, uh, my brother-in-law, um, taught me that word. He was in a degree program at the School of Philanthropy at, well, the late great I-U-P-U-I. Now IUI, What, uh, what is the third space to me? Um, it's a place where people can just, that isn't work or not work, not job. And it's not home. It's a place where maybe one is free from responsibility, uh, and free from,
I wanna say free from obligation, but I don't know, I guess a place to relax where there's no expectation to spend money or to produce.
And you don't have a boss.
[00:29:04] Michael Zarick: But, you might have a leader,
[00:29:07] Tony: I suppose, if you wanna follow that, you know, if you wanna walk with that person, sure. Then they're a leader. Somebody wants to follow you, well then you're leader.
That's why you walk in. Would you
[00:29:15] Michael Zarick: say
[00:29:15] Tony: you say that
[00:29:16] Michael Zarick: you're Sunday
practices
[00:29:22] Tony: Yeah, for sure.
[00:29:25] Michael Zarick: for answering. Yes.
[00:29:28] Tony: You asked me a yes or no question.
Yes.
[00:29:33] Michael Zarick: Oh,
okay. Something I've
been thinking. about is,
and you've kind of already answered, I, well, the uh, actually is what is a third space
throughout your life That you
[00:29:51] Tony: A third space I once had, you know, I think one of the things that led to the formation Indy Community Yoga is the fact that I didn't have one.
[00:30:02] Michael Zarick: Mm.
[00:30:03] Tony: Uh, and that made me very angry. I didn't
[00:30:07] Michael Zarick: subconsciously or consciously it
[00:30:08] Tony: initially, I wasn't aware of my was, because I'm Michael, I'm not an angry person. So therefore, therefore, I can't possibly feel an, this can't possibly be anger. Uh, you know, there was no space where I could just be angry. and so, uh,
yeah, practice space became a place where I could come into contact with that. You know, anger was very scary certain people are allowed in our current place in time a lot of people aren't allowed to express anger or displeasure or the fact they don't like something. actually that's one aspect of our practices.
It's totally fine to not like things, even things that we do or say. And it's okay to express that. Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, I, I, I didn't have one. I'm not even sure. As a child, maybe school is my third I always think Yeah. Personally, school and the public library, those are my third
spaces.
and I love our libraries here.
[00:31:26] Michael Zarick: I think the answer of you didn't have one is acceptable, if Yeah. I don't
[00:31:31] Tony: Yeah. I'm just trying to be honest. Yeah. Like, and poke at that a little bit yeah. I wish libraries were open 24 7 and had. Food and drink.
I'd be
all the
[00:31:44] Michael Zarick: attainable goal.
[00:31:48] Tony: Yeah, maybe. I hope so. I'll be there. I'll open a,
yeah, I'll open something.
[00:31:55] Michael Zarick: Actually I wanna retread ground a little bit.
[00:31:58] Tony: Okay.
[00:31:59] Michael Zarick: Because I found, again, just back to our initial phone call, our conversation, so fascinating. Yeah. About what it means to be religious to you
because
you are Buddhist, you identify as Buddhist. Okay. And when I asked you if you consider yourself religious, your question was very, or your, sorry.
Your response was very interesting to me. Um, Rethink a lot of the things Um, okay. Yeah, um, in terms of like what it means to be, um, religious spiritual or whatever word you want to use. 'cause I was raised Catholic and um, went to church weekly with my, my mother and sometimes my father
um, but I would say I sort of dropped that and shed that. But I still think I carry many, at least in my opinion. Truly Catholic values, a sense of guilt too. But, um, this idea of, you know, if you really frame it truly, Jesus was a, a loving caring person, He treated the the
poor.
He He wanted to provide healthcare for people. He wanted to provide food for people and provide space for people and safety and all of these things within that realm of what. it means to be Christian or Catholic So
I carry a lot
um, values with me, even though I don't practice the act of going might consider being the way you framed it, being Buddhist practicing uh influenced me in a lot of ways,
[00:33:50] Tony: Yeah. You know, this is, uh, the question of am I a religious person?
Am I a Buddhist? Are, are questions that I've been grappling with for a long time Uh, and, um, I think it's important to, when we say religious, what, what do we And I think religious to, and those of you listening, I'd be interested in hearing what your own feelings are about that word. Uh, it's quite charged.
Um, and, uh. I think I need to go back to what we recite at the beginning of most of our meditation which is a, a dialogue between two Chinese monks. Um, the two characters are Zhàozhou Zhàozhou is an 18-year-old kid, novice monk, uh, traveling around maybe looking for a teacher, maybe not just kind of, you know, seeking something I guess, And he encounters this 46-year-old monk called Nánquán, and, um, Zhàozhou asked, what is the way? Um, now the important thing about the word Dao, which is in, in Vietnamese, it's Dao and Chinese. Uh, the way that word also means religion. So in a sense he's asking this older monk, what is religion? Um, so I'll just recite the whole thing.
One day, Zhàozhou asked, what is the way Nánquán said ordinary heart is Zhàozhou said, may it be pursued or not. Nánquán said if you seek it, you'll never find Zhàozhou said, well, if I don't seek it. How can I know about the way? Nánquán said the way does not belong to knowing or knowing is fake enlightenment not knowing is un remembering.
If you sincerely live the way of no pretending, it's just like the sky wide open. Vast emptiness How can you say yes or no to it At these words, Zhàozhou fell awake Their heart became serene, like the bright moon So if you replace the word the way, which is a little bit abstract, a way could although here way, well, if you replace religion, what is religion? Well, ordinary heart is religion May I seek it or not? May it be pursued or not? Well, you seek religion you'll never find it, Well, if I don't seek religion, how can I know? How can I, if I don't seek it, how can I know about religion?
Religion does not belong to knowing or not knowing is fake enlightenment. Not knowing is un remembering. If you truly realize the religion of no pretending, it's just like the sky Anyway, um, the kind of long and short of this for me, after reciting it thousands of times now
[00:37:35] Michael Zarick: clearly
had that Yeah. Even though I think read it off your
[00:37:40] Tony: Oh no, I, that's, this is my translation, you know, I started with an English translation. I was like, wait, those words aren't quite right. And then I was like, it was a whole research project to like actually find the original Chinese. Um, and that, sort of intersects with some personal interests in, uh, Vietnamese originally being written with Chinese characters, but then French and Portuguese colonizers came, cut Vietnamese language off from that and latinized it's a sort of, this is all kind of swirling But the, the kind of long and short of this for me is your religion is the way you live your life. Um, you can say like, oh, I'm, I'm this or that. You know, A lot of times people like you, you mentioned Catholicism like, well, I'm a practicing Catholic but what does that, what do people usually mean by
that?
[00:38:33] Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.
Oh, you're asking
[00:38:34] Tony: Yeah. I'm asking you.
[00:38:37] Michael Zarick: to church twice a year for Easter and Christmas. Yeah.
[00:38:40] Tony: Or, Or,
[00:38:40] Michael Zarick: or they go to church every week. or that, You know, and
[00:38:42] Tony: it is just like, okay. Um,
[00:38:45] Michael Zarick: and they attend Sausage Fest and
[00:38:48] Tony: Yeah. You know, nothing wrong with all that. There's nothing wrong, there's nothing wrong with, there's nothing wrong with Sausage Fest.
Um, there's nothing wrong with being in community every Sunday. I think that's great. Mm-hmm. But, um, you know, you mentioned Jesus as a really, a person who is in solidarity with everyone, including the most exploited people. In
That particular Roman colony. Right. And, and so, um, What other ways does one express one's religion besides conforming to the rules of your religion in, in terms of attendance? Um, so I, I like, kind of struggled with my own, like, am I a Buddhist because like my version of Buddhism is not really highlighted, like my version of Buddhism, I'm a, I'm a heritage Buddhist.
Like my Buddhism was transmitted to me first by my mother who, and hers was transmitted to her by her paternal grandmother. Um, and it's this sort of indigenous. Transmission of religion through language and culture and care and ritual at home, married with temple practices. Um, so like religion for me is like, it's not just the, the scriptural part.
It's not just the attendance it's not institutional. it is and I, I came to think of myself, uh, or I came to admit to myself, I guess I'm a religious person because I do this thing every day, uh, this ritual mm-hmm. Of getting up in the morning, sitting, I turn on Zoom I see my, I see friends, I see friendly we sit and we practice being sincere and you know, there are a lot. People who considered religious or maybe think of themselves as religious then a lot of harmful things.
And I don't know. I hope that to me, somebody who's religious is one who is coming into contact with their true nature. And I believe our true nature isn't an original sin think our true nature is actually we do want to care for one another. We want to hold each other We want help each other thrive. We want to not harm each We want to exist in a sustainable way the land and the air and the water. Um, we don't want to Uh, exploit other people. I don't think that's a natural thing. Uh, I don't think being anybody's boss is a natural thing. I think cooperation is a natural thing If it weren't, it wouldn't feel so good. Like, doesn't it feel good to like feed other people? Doesn't it feel good to like, just hang out with people under trees? Like doesn't it feel good to like, work against injustice together and like fight exploitation? And to me, like whatever you, you know, your, your religious origins are, I mean, I just happened to be born in a circumstance where you know the, the, the Dharma gate for me was because of my mother. And circumstance of my birth but you know. what is a Dharma Gate, a Dharma gate. I'm not, I'm not informed. Yeah. This is a, uh, um, this is a Buddhist term, meaning that, um, it's, it's one of the vows. Dharma gates are numberless, I vow to enter them all. Meaning that, uh, there's no single doorway to truth or, you know, understanding your nature Um, there are lots of different ways to do it, and the right one for you might be different than the right one for me. In fact, it probably is because we're all coming from different life experiences
And, you know whatever, gives you that clarity.
[00:43:31] Michael Zarick: There's a, a music artist, uh, Tyler Childers. Okay. He's a, he's from Pikeville, Kentucky. Shout
Kentucky.
Shout out to Tyler. Tyler Childers. He just released a new album fairly recently and I believe he talks about Dharma in one of his songs.
Yeah. Because
'cause
I think he did some, some reading, some religious texts. Um. And I think he learned a lot because he's, he's from Pikeville, Kentucky. He's probably raised as Baptist or something like that. And I think he learned a lot about he's becoming more worldly as he grows, as an artist, as a person. Uh, and I think he brings up that, and he talks about how, I think he says the big man in like that, that is, was his Dharma gate.
I think he framed it differently. I thought that was
I actually listened to that song on the way here. Oh
That's why I, that's why I'm able to recall it so easily. Well, there you go. Well, on a lighter, well, it depends on what you consider lighter. Actually, on
lighter question, how's your viewing Love Island going? Oh,
[00:44:34] Tony: yes. Um, I'm very happy to free, uh, to, um, I.
To report that I'm liberated from Love Island. Uh, this most recent, I, it's funny, I, I think I told you this story, but I
Hadn't heard of Love Island mm-hmm. Until attended.
Uh, Listen,
[00:44:52] Michael Zarick: you are the last person I would've ever expected
I was watching Love Island last night. I
mean,
[00:44:57] Tony: Dharma Hates Are Numberless.
Um, yeah, I heard about it from a, the Palestinian committee comedian, uh, Sammy Obeid Uh, is that for whatever reason it came up yeah, my wife and I got hooked on whatever, the most recent season of Love Island UK. But I actually say that, uh, we got through that season and then we tried to watch another one.
It was like, uh, we're done with this, like both of us. It wasn't like we weren't, you checked it
[00:45:28] Michael Zarick: off. You were like, this is nothing to me now.
[00:45:29] Tony: Well, it was just, I, I did find Love Island to be, um, an amazing study of.
being watched and surveillance, like
in
[00:45:42] Michael Zarick: oppoisition to likewhat you try to do
uh, or as
[00:45:48] Tony: well, um, I don't know if I thought of it in comparison or contrast. with, what I do, I was just sort of, while I'm watching the show, which is really watching these I became aware of me watching these people, but also these people being aware that people, that they are being watched, not just by each other. Because I think the way the set is set up is like you can see everything that's going on.
You know, they're sleeping in big room together. yeah, just like being observed Um, but also like. How the producers sort of set up situations.
and just thinking about like
how,
[00:46:40] Michael Zarick: talk about people with no religion. producers for,
for reality, television shows
are built differently.
I
[00:46:47] Tony: mean, their, their religion is profit.
Okay. I mean, that's why capitalism is an ism, uh, the religion of capital. yeah, I, I became aware of that. It, it sort of made me think about, you know, how we're being observed. I mean, we're being viewed here Uh, and how different that is, we're being seen. Uh, and also the relationship of surveillance to power, but also like the interpersonal conflict.
I mean, they're all like, you know, in their twenties
and I don't know about anything when. In my twenties Yeah. Still working on that. But, yeah, so I'm, the
short answer is, I'm done with Love Island . Don't need to watch it.
[00:47:37] Michael Zarick: On the, like, popcorn side of it. Like did you enjoy the first season of it?
Were you just enjoyed the process of like
absorbing this
information? Oh, I,
[00:47:45] Tony: yeah, I was fa I was totally transfixed and fascinated by, I mean, it's entertainment, right? I mean, and I found it, I found it entertaining and I had feelings about being entertained in this way and like that I liked it 'cause it was like caught in the web.
Yeah, it is just, yeah. I, um, uh, yeah. But anyway, I feel very fortunate that, one season was enough
[00:48:13] Michael Zarick: This is not important to the next question necessarily. Okay. Um, but do you, do you travel often
We used to travel often. Okay. So you will, you'll, you'll have some perspective here. Okay. Which is helpful Um, so every episode I ask a question from Okay. Um, last guest was Casey Springer Okay. Who runs Indianapolis? Or sorry, what does she run? I'm losing just Casey Springer. I'll Oh, We walk okay. Uh, and her question to you is, what is something that Indianapolis, that does, that Indianapolis does not that you feel like it should either that you've seen somewhere else, or maybe not even somewhere that you've seen just something you believe Indianapolis should have
That it does not currently have?
[00:49:07] Tony: there are so many things I could say here. The first things that come to mind are,
[00:49:13] Michael Zarick: than a library with 24 hours a day hours and food Yeah. There, there's
[00:49:18] Tony: that. I would say, I would say, um, cooperative living, it's the, the way the, and it's not just Indianapolis this is the United the United States was built, uh, after the Second
War. That's so isolating. I
[00:49:40] Michael Zarick: mean, can share a bit more about what you mean when you say cooperative living?
[00:49:45] Tony: Well, um, yeah. I mean there's, there's for example, cooperative housing, which should be, um, instead of having a landlord that is setting up housing for, with the objective, main objective of profiting for themselves, uh, it would be, for example, an apartment building that's owned by the tenants. Uh, now this exists in other places.
[00:50:18] Michael Zarick: I think it exists in some places in the US even. Uh, rarely. Yeah.
[00:50:20] Tony: Um, and there are, yeah, it's not a, it's not a new thing I mean even cooperatively owned businesses, I mean, Indy community yoga, we, I, I mentioned earlier where a worker run cooperative.
Mm-hmm. That means there's no owner, so there's no single owner we make decisions collectively how much we all get paid. Um, yeah, I mean, and really underneath cooperative living, the structural aspect
[00:50:52] Michael Zarick: didn't mean to kill this in peace. Um, and I do appreciate your answer.
Yeah. I think that type of thing difficult for even people like us who are aware these systems exist already to even conceive of because it's just not common And we're sort of, I mean, it's just difficult to, to visualize what, that would look like,
Yeah.
In our current society because it doesn't exist.
[00:51:24] Tony: Yeah. It doesn't exist. Um, I mean, I guess I, I would like to add another answer, please. Which is, um, everybody, know what, what Indianapolis does not have is housing for everybody. Healthcare for everybody food for everybody This is attainable also. if, if I could wave a magic wand, it be that, and you could walk to things and not rely on, an automobile and oil and gas. you know, the place would be
[00:52:00] Michael Zarick: did drive here. Yeah,
[00:52:01] Tony: we did. But we
[00:52:04] Michael Zarick: victims of the system.
[00:52:05] Tony: What if
Yeah. What Um, so I dunno,
[00:52:09] Michael Zarick: It's kind of bigger thing. I did see the Monon Trail just over there. Oh, I don't, we haven't said where we are. We are at, uh, Frederick Douglas Park. the Monon Trail on the way over here
Yes.
Uh, practically maybe not.
[00:52:26] Tony: Yeah.
[00:52:26] Michael Zarick: Just a thought.
[00:52:27] Tony: Yeah. I
[00:52:27] Michael Zarick: also did check. I do just for the people listening. I do when I go to a place, always check the bus routes and it's always a little longer than I need it to be in the in the moments. Um,
[00:52:40] Tony: ooey.
[00:52:41] Michael Zarick: Yeah. Well, thank you for answering.
[00:52:43] Tony: Yeah, you're welcome. Thanks for the thoughtful question. Is there
[00:52:45] Michael Zarick: anything else to talk about before we end?
[00:52:48] Tony: I dunno, how are you doing?
[00:52:51] Michael Zarick: I'm doing really, actually, I've been, uh, I thank you for asking. It's very kind of you. Um, I have a job.
Did I tell you that? No,
[00:53:02] Tony: You did?
[00:53:02] Michael Zarick: Yeah.
[00:53:03] Tony: Congratulations.
[00:53:04] Michael Zarick: we first talked
Um, so I'm feeling good about that. It's going well. Uh, my life is fairly happy. My wife is fairly happy.
Um, not
[00:53:17] Tony: unrelated.
[00:53:18] Michael Zarick: not unrelated. Not unrelated. Happy. Yeah,
[00:53:20] Tony: life. That's the saying. Yeah.
[00:53:22] Michael Zarick: Uh, but I also have felt like a little, like, I need to do more whatever that means, And that, uh, I've been struggling with that a little bit, which I think is interesting
either do I really need to be doing more
that just a, a self, you know, should I be living the ICY motto of nothing to achieve and nothing to attain if really, like there's not, I'm setting that expectation for myself.
That's something that I'm thinking on a lot right now, but I do also think that this podcast has a level of impact beyond what I can perceive Um, and I'd like to raise that a little bit whatever that means
[00:54:08] Tony: yeah, Yeah. Well, it's great. I'm glad that you have love seems that you love to do it.
[00:54:17] Michael Zarick: I enjoy talking to people.
[00:54:18] Tony: Yeah, you love talking to people. That's the gift of yours. The gift of gab as they say. It really is. You know, and that's, uh, yeah. not everybody has that and not everybody asks
such thoughtful questions and you know, there's a certain
talent
[00:54:37] Michael Zarick: you. That's very kind. I did allude to this, but do have to ask the next guest a question and I'm going to talk to them in a couple hours. so oh, uh, so you do have to tell me
now. Okay. Um, shoot. Um hmm. it
can be, it does not have to be about yoga. Nothing to achieve and nothing to attain with this question
[00:55:03] Tony: Yeah.
[00:55:04] Michael Zarick: Not the poke fun
[00:55:07] Tony: I, What do I want to ask them? Uh, what is their favorite ice cream flavor? Wait, does it have to be about Indianapolis or third spaces hmm. Well, the ice cream flavor question is, is a, I could just ask them. I'm down. Uh, yeah, there's that. But I, I like to ask people, uh, to paint a picture of their hometown, when they
it might be too personal,
[00:55:42] Michael Zarick: No, I think that's a great que both. Okay, good.
great.
You get
two.
Um, yeah, we're about an hour. Good timing.
Well,
thank you for joining me, Tony. I really have appreciated it. We, we putzed around for really long time before we pushed record but that's ok, Yeah. Where
can the people find you or where can people find ICY
[00:56:04] Tony: Yeah, well, you know, you can find me. Maybe you don't wanna be found. You can find me wherever I, Indy community yoga is happening
Uh, you go to our website, indycommunityyoga.org. Um, and you could see our full schedule there, including where our practices are. you can reach me at tony@indycommunityyoga.org
Tony is TONY.
Um,
that's where you can find me
[00:56:33] Michael Zarick: and you're very
[00:56:35] Tony: Oh, thanks.
[00:56:36] Michael Zarick: Alright. My perception is that you're
responsive. Maybe some people don't feel that way.
[00:56:40] Tony: You know, responsiveness is a sign of interest.
[00:56:43] Michael Zarick: And just to hype him up a little more,
not only uh, does Tony lead ICY, but also keep in mind that all ICY practices are free capital F free.
There is nothing you have to give unless you want to, but nothing you have to give to show up. No personal investment, no fiscal investment. Just show up experience as I have and continue and want to continue to do so. Attend an ICY event or practice,
Yeah. And if you do it in the next
few weeks, maybe you get to attend a retreat.
Yeah.
[00:57:24] Tony: Yeah. Um,
[00:57:25] Michael Zarick: great. Thank you for joining me, Tony. On this episode of Third Space Indy you can find third space in. At Instagram or on Instagram at Third Space Indy and thirdspaceIndy.com Every episode comes
at minimum, a thousand word blog. I write it with my own hands on a keyboard. I record. Third Space, third Space, Indy all over Indianapolis. I really appreciate sharing this episode with you. Third Space, Indy Intro Music done by the local artist Jennasen, Thank you Jennasen for sharing your music with me so I can share it with the people. Have a great rest of the day. Thank you for listening,