Ep. 24 - Nora Elder - Founder of Choose the Marble, Self Advocacy Strategist
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Intro
This will not be the last time I type this here, most likely, but one of the things I encounter most when talking to people is a very consistent desire to meet new people, make new friends, and a need for a deeper community. My follow-up question to this desire is nearly always “Have you tried?” To this, I am nearly universally met with a ‘no.’
In a similar mode of thinking, Nora Elder left her cushy corporate job because she was feeling unfulfilled. Especially so after a key event in her life caused her to rethink a bit about what she was prioritizing. I think a lot of people have this desire for a more fulfilling career, in much the same way they desire more friends, but “have you tried?” What I can definitely say is that Nora is out here doing both - trying both. Building for herself a more fulfilling career and creating friends and community that ‘fills her cup’ so to speak.
All of this wrapped in a sort of summation of ‘self-advocacy’ Nora is seeking to help others and herself fight for better pay, better work conditions and better mental wellness in the way they move through the world. I’m thankful for her taking the time to chat with me, and I hope you enjoy.
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Production learnings
Story Time
Episode Summary
Episode Transcript
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Important links and mentions
Nora Elder
Production learnings from the episode
I am glad Nora and I recorded the way we did. A walk and talk. Personally, I found the video to be pleasant and colorful. However, the angle of the video could be better, as it’s primarily from below and prominently displays me rather than Nora. Also, when the video background is in motion, it makes cuts within the video more obvious to the viewer, something to consider.
That said, I’m not certain I would do this again (but I probably will). I think it made talking and listening more difficult. Maybe that was a walking pace thing, but I personally feel I did Nora, who is incredible, a disservice by focusing on walking, holding my phone/camera up, not falling over, and our conversation all at once. My perception is that the output was hurt. Alternatively, this could be a purely mental/internal byproduct of listening to and editing a podcast so close to when I recorded it. I felt similarly about the bonus episode from a couple of days ago, and the feedback there has been decently positive.
I suspect most people who listen will enjoy, and I’m just being hard on myself… A constant struggle.
Other than that, I always enjoy the natural sound… at some points, the highway that was adjacent to us was quite noticeable to me, but I wonder if people will even know what that sound is. I also find the crunch of leaves as we walk quite pleasant. Overall, I’m pretty happy with the soundscape, and I love being able to continually explore Indy.
Self-Advocacy is Radical
I love when Nora talks about “getting selfish” because I think in many ways people are already that, but for the wrong reasons. We are “selfish” in the sense I brought up in the podcast in the way that we often think of life as a rat race. In the way that we must get ahead of others to benefit ourselves. This is in contrast to the way Nora frames it, in that I should be selfish so that I can live the best life I can live. Not to the detriment of others, but so that I can get the most out of life.
Many people are stuck in this hole of thinking that they are not good enough or worthy enough of one thing or another, but when you do some introspection and begin to understand that we are all worthy of living a better life, you can then begin to move in ways that help advocate for that.
Joining a worker’s union is “selfish” insofar as the outcomes of unions often lead to better pay, better healthcare outcomes, and more time off. This is not a selfishness that is solely benefiting you, but that of the collective whole, but you can’t reach the point of taking the action of creating a union with those around you without first knowing the power of self-advocacy in the way that Nora frames it.
I really appreciated having Nora on the podcast, and I hope to remain her friend in the future. Thanks for listening and reading as always — and remember to get a bit selfish…
Third Space Indy is supported by City Rising
Episode Summary
Self-Advocacy and Community Building: A Conversation with Nora Elder
In this episode of Third Space Indy, host Michael Zarick interviews Nora Elder, a self-advocacy strategist and founder of Marble, LLC. They discuss the importance of knowing oneself to better engage with and build meaningful communities. Nora shares her personal journey from a corporate job to starting her own business, spurred by the sudden loss of her pet and a desire for meaningful work. She explains the concept of 'getting selfish'—belonging to oneself—and its crucial role in self-advocacy. They also touch upon the connection between self-advocacy and third spaces, emphasizing the value of internal work in forming strong community ties. Lastly, they discuss Nora's current projects, including her workshops and part-time jobs that enrich her sense of community in Indianapolis.
00:00 Introduction to Self-Advocacy and Third Spaces
01:19 Meet the Host: Michael Zarick
01:47 Podcast Overview and Announcements
02:27 Introducing Today's Guest: Nora Elder
03:28 Nora's Journey to Self-Advocacy
04:14 The Birth of Marble, LLC
06:22 Navigating Career Changes and Personal Loss
13:44 Balancing Multiple Roles and Community Building
22:10 The Concept of 'Getting Selfish'
36:09 Sustaining a Business with Flexible Pricing
36:32 The Value of Community Workshops
38:04 Exploring Third Spaces and Their Importance
38:22 Sponsorship and Community Impact
39:24 Defining and Reflecting on Third Spaces
43:09 Memorable Third Spaces from the Past
47:13 Fun and Thought-Provoking Questions
50:33 Books That Shaped Us
55:52 Winter Reflections and Community Building
01:00:06 Final Thoughts and Where to Find Us
Episode Transcript
Nora Elder
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[00:00:00] Nora Elder: The thing that self-advocacy has to do with third spaces is that the better you know yourself, the better you understand your values and the things that are important to you, the more clear it becomes who is in your community and the types of communities that you really wanna chase and should chase.
And, um, I think by just getting a better foundation of like... how do I like to feel? What matters to me? Suddenly the world opens up in front of you of like, oh, there's a space for that. There's a place across town that actually does that. , But the less time that you give yourself to really figure that out, the more you take your communities for granted and don't necessarily push beyond , your set comfort zone.
And so I just encourage everybody to like really reflect, really think, do that internal work, and you'll be shocked at how that internal work will translate out into the friends you make and the people that you impact and the places that you drink coffee and eat your dinner
and, and all the things.
[00:01:19] Michael Zarick: Hello! Uh, my name is Michael Zarick. This is Third Space Indy This is a podcast where I talk to community builders, leaders and organizers all over Indianapolis, including today where I'm the furthest from Indianapolis I've ever been.
What's the name? This Skiles Test Park.
[00:01:35] Nora Elder: Yeah. Skiles Test Nature Park.
[00:01:37] Michael Zarick: Skiles Test Nature Park out on Fall Creek Road. Um, sort of in Lawrence. Is that, is that what you would call this?
[00:01:44] Nora Elder: Adjacent Lawrence? Yeah. Adjacent. Yeah.
[00:01:47] Michael Zarick: Uh, just a quick announcement before we begin. Just a new thing I'm trying out. If you would love to share a little bit about yourself with me, please send me a video.
Or a short audio thing of you saying your name, what neighborhood you rep here in Indianapolis, and your favorite third place in Indy Just tell me about it. I think Nora's might be here, uh, although I don't know if that's true. Anyways, send that over to thirdspaceindy@gmail.com Also say that you are listening to Third Space Indy I would love that. Uh, I've already got one and I would love to have more. Uh, anyways, onto today's guest. I already said her name. Uh, today's guest is Nora Elder. She is a self advocacy
[00:02:36] Nora Elder: strategist. Strategist.
[00:02:37] Michael Zarick: I wanna say I keep wanting, say coach, but so much more. Yeah. Uh, and the reason Nora and I got connected is because we, I was, I got invited to a talk at Orangily, which is a non-alcoholic store on 42nd, 40, uh,
[00:02:53] Nora Elder: 54th.
[00:02:54] Michael Zarick: 54th.
[00:02:54] Nora Elder: Yeah.
[00:02:55] Michael Zarick: Dang. Man, I'm really bad at the, the, the locations, uh, 54th and like a couple blocks off college. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And Just off the Monon, that's really what I was looking for.
[00:03:05] Nora Elder: Yeah.
[00:03:08] Michael Zarick: And I was at a talk with Duncan Alney.
[00:03:13] Nora Elder: Mm-hmm.
[00:03:13] Michael Zarick: Uh, and he gave us talk about, uh, braveness or something. I don't recall.
[00:03:17] Nora Elder: Bravery. Courage. I think it, yeah, courage. I think it was.
[00:03:20] Michael Zarick: And we just talked a little bit afterwards and I said, here's what I'm doing with the podcast, yada, yada, yada. And you said, oh, I would love to come on. I sure did. I recently quit my corporate job, which we'll talk a little bit about mm-hmm.
To become a self-advocacy strategist. Bang, locked in. He did it. He did it. So all that said, uh, I've been really excited to have her on. I think she has amazing thoughts about, uh, what it is to advocate for yourself, especially at a time where. That is a dead mouse on the ground,
[00:03:52] Nora Elder: especially at a, so your shoes are nice.
We don't want that,
[00:03:55] Michael Zarick: especially at a time where I feel like advocating for yourself is more important than ever before. Uh,
[00:04:02] Nora Elder: agree. Absolutely. So,
[00:04:05] Michael Zarick: without further ado, Nora, could you please do a better job than myself talking about yourself?
[00:04:11] Nora Elder: Um, I will certainly try. Uh, yeah. So I started my business just under a year ago.
My one year anniversary will be 11/29. I'm, oh, I also failed
[00:04:22] Michael Zarick: to say the name of the business. Oh yeah. Choose The Marble.
[00:04:24] Nora Elder: Yeah. So, um, my business is called Marble, LLC, but um, I often refer to it as Choose The Marble. Mm-hmm. And we can get into the story behind that phrase as well. 'cause with me, everything is a story basically.
Um, but for now what I do is I specialize in helping people kind of connect better with themselves. Understand what matters most to them in terms of their core values and what they want their lives to look like. Um, but then I help them kind of match those things with the skills that they need to self-advocate.
And so when I talk about those skills, I basically talk about things like saying no and meaning it, and setting up boundaries and, um, putting yourself out there in new spaces and giving people feedback that lands well and lands effectively. Like all of those types of things wrap up into self-advocacy for me.
Mm-hmm. But it's so impossible to self-advocate if you don't know yourself really well first. And so that's kind of the foundational work that I do with people before we even start the skill building.
[00:05:29] Michael Zarick: That makes sense. Um, so I think you maybe had an idea of what you wanted to talk about today. I have my own idea.
So you're the host. Let's do that. Yeah. Yeah. So
[00:05:40] Nora Elder: I do remember with questions almost a year.
[00:05:42] Michael Zarick: Right. Mm-hmm. You, you quit your job. Yeah. You previously worked, I don't recall. It's called like ad advise, what was it called? Advise. Yeah,
[00:05:49] Nora Elder: advise advisor
[00:05:51] Michael Zarick: Up
[00:05:51] Nora Elder: in car.
[00:05:52] Michael Zarick: Um, and so you were a consultant there, so it's very sort of adjacent to what you're trying to do now.
Mm-hmm. As you've moved into this self-advocacy, uh, sort of advising position for other people. Yep. Um, what was the driving reason for wanting to quit that job? That was probably pretty cushy.
[00:06:12] Nora Elder: Yeah. It was a really comfortable place. Um, I was in a leadership position, I was a director. Um, I led an incredible team of four people.
And yeah, I, there were a few things that happened in the course of 2024 that made me kind of wanna reassess my relationship with work.
[00:06:32] Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:33] Nora Elder: Um, the biggest one was that in March of last year, we lost our dog in a. Very sudden fashion. Um, his name was Aldo. Rest in peace, Aldo rest in peace, Aldo. And he, uh, we woke up one morning and he was totally fine.
Ate a big breakfast, did the whole nine yards. Then I left and went to work that day and came back and he was no longer with us. And it's jarring experiences like that, that sometimes wake you up and make you question like, how are you, how am I spending my time? Yeah. Right. Because all I could think of once I had processed the initial shock of the situation was I was gone while, you know, whatever was happening was happening with him.
And I was doing like a session that I had done a million times before uhhuh with a group full of people that didn't really want to be there. And I
[00:07:35] Michael Zarick: Like At your consultancy job? Yeah, exactly. Just like a bunch of people that were like, ah, whatever.
[00:07:38] Nora Elder: Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Pretty much. It was in the medical field.
And so they were all like constantly looking at their phones, no doubt, thinking about the way more important things that they could be doing than sitting in there talking about leadership uhhuh. And it was one of those moments where it was just like I, if I had had to be gone that day, I would've loved to be able to say that I was doing something that I wanted to do that was really gonna be impactful.
Mm-hmm. And I just couldn't say that. And so I decided to honor all those memory by promising him and promising myself that I was not gonna spend one more second of my life doing something that didn't feel meaningful.
[00:08:17] Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:18] Nora Elder: And so there was that, and then there was also just, you know, as things happen, um, the organization was trying to grow and was becoming increasingly corporate, which I think is amazing for them.
And like, seriously, no hard feelings, nothing bad there, Uhhuh. But when I joined the organization. I had promised myself that that was gonna be my last corporate job,
.
And, um, I liked it because it didn't feel super corporate. And so when they began to grow and began to scale and do all of those types of things, I was like, you know, this might not be the place for me anymore.
[00:08:55] Michael Zarick: Definitely.
[00:08:56] Nora Elder: So I decided to leave.
[00:08:59] Michael Zarick: Um, thank you for sharing. Turn around. Oh, do you wanna turn around or do you wanna go down this trail? Is that safe? Uh,
[00:09:04] Nora Elder: oh. Yeah. Let's do it. Totally safe.
[00:09:05] Michael Zarick: For, for those of you just listening, we are literally walking, uh, slash hiking slash whatever through. You'll
[00:09:12] Nora Elder: hear leaves crunching probably.
[00:09:14] Michael Zarick: Yeah. And the video will be truly gorgeous. Hopefully we'll get a
[00:09:20] Nora Elder: deer or two. That's a whole log. Careful, it'll clear up.
[00:09:25] Michael Zarick: Um, thank you for sharing. And then by extension, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try to wrap this together as best as I can mm-hmm. With these two questions. So by extension. With Marble LLC slash Choose The Marble.
Yeah. How did you come to determine that name?
[00:09:42] Nora Elder: So, um,
[00:09:44] Michael Zarick: which I still have my Marble that you gave me. It sits on my desk.
[00:09:46] Nora Elder: Oh, yay. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, I love to hear that. Um, yeah, so where the Marbles come in is that as I was kind of navigating this choice to potentially leave the organization, um, on my work from home days, I would work at a desk.
And right next to my computer is this huge jar of Marbles,
[00:10:11] Michael Zarick: uhhuh.
[00:10:11] Nora Elder: And one of those Marbles specifically like, kind of stuck out to me mm-hmm. In an interesting way. I don't know why. I think it was just the way the light caught it or something. Mm-hmm. And so I took it out of the jar and it kind of became my worry stone.
And I would just like twiddle it between my fingers and, you know, it sort of became like a little friend to me as I. Working out like, do I stay? Do I go, what do I do this way? And um, so yeah, over the course of that time, that Marble really became significant to me and I had this little moment where I was like, you know what?
If someone were to walk in here right now and ask me, do you want your job or this Marble? 'cause you can't have both, I decided that I would choose the Marble. Oh, okay. Okay. So that's where that phrase comes from and it kind of basically encapsulates this idea of if there is something meaningful to you, if there's something that feels meaningful and feels really important, I forgot about this.
Oh, we're so brave piece. Um, if there's something that feels really important and really meaningful to you, then do what you need to do to be able to choose it. I think that's really, really important for folks.
[00:11:25] Michael Zarick: Yeah. So it sounds like to me, both of these stories. Uh, and I apologize. What's your dog's name again?
Aldo. Aldo? Yeah. What's a great name? Thank you. Um, both of these stories are rooted in a level of introspection and seeking a deeper meaning in a moment that may otherwise like seem fleeting.
[00:11:51] Nora Elder: Mm-hmm.
[00:11:52] Michael Zarick: Uh,
[00:11:53] Nora Elder: very much so.
[00:11:54] Michael Zarick: Yeah. And so leading into where we are now, a year later, uh, can you share a little bit about where for Marble, like, can you share a little bit about how you feel you're currently standing as somebody who decided to go off on their own?
[00:12:15] Nora Elder: Yeah. Um, I'm feeling really good. There are. Definitely things that could be going better.
I would love to say that Marble is, has replaced my income from the last year. Uh, it has not. Um,
[00:12:31] Michael Zarick: I feel like that'd be a big leap.
[00:12:32] Nora Elder: That would be a huge leap uhhuh and I would probably be in a world of hurt in a lot of other ways if I was doing that. Um, but I feel more happy and more whole than I have since entering the workforce in 2012.
And that comes from a lot of different things. I think number one is just being able to have complete agency and creative control and how I'm spending my time. Um, and that was one of the sticking points that kind of, um, caused me to leave was like, oh, I realized how important that creative control and my ability to use my brain in the way that I want to use my brain actually is to me.
[00:13:12] Michael Zarick: Yeah.
[00:13:13] Nora Elder: And so I've got that and I'm also. Spending so much more time just like making friends and building communities and being a community member. Mm-hmm. Um, and I didn't really have the capacity to do that before 'cause I was, you know, tired and approaching burnout. And I think it's really important to recognize like how much capacity it does take to be intentional in building a community around you.
Um, but it is so, so, so worth it. and so, um, in addition to the Marble stuff, um, what is also really exciting is I have two part-time jobs as well. Mm-hmm. I know one of them, you do know one of them. Yeah. The first one is where we met, um, at Orangily and shout out to Chris and Andy, the owners of Orangily.
Um, but yeah, it's a wellness bottle shop, um, non-alcoholic drinks. And it's also, what I love about that place is that it kind of does function as a. Third place for a lot of people, Uhhuh. Um, I know
[00:14:13] Michael Zarick: they've really, I've talked to 'em about it before. They really try to push that.
[00:14:16] Nora Elder: Yeah, they do. Yeah. And I think they do a really phenomenal job.
Mm-hmm. There are so many community members that will just kind of stop by and say hi, and, you know, maybe get a drink out of the fridge, but like, that's not the point of their visit. Mm-hmm. And, you know, book clubs and community talks and events and things like that always happening there. And so when I thought about how I could use some of the spare time that I have, um, I was like, oh, orange Lee is right at the top of my list.
I would love to be able to just like, be on the team there and spend time. And then did you
[00:14:47] Michael Zarick: just.
[00:14:49] Nora Elder: I totally did. Okay.
[00:14:50] Michael Zarick: I was like, ah. Because I know they recently closed one of their locations. Mm-hmm. Um, so it's a, it's cool that they just were like, oh yeah, come on.
[00:14:57] Nora Elder: Yeah, it was great. It was so funny. Um, my job interview lasted all of 30 seconds and it consisted of me being like, Hey, Andy, do you need help?
And her being like, yes, absolutely. What's your t-shirt size?
[00:15:10] Michael Zarick: That's the best. That's how, so, um, I've shared this on the podcast before, but my, I, my least favorite thing about job searching, especially in the modern day, is when they're, like, you do an intro call with a recruiter and the recruiter goes, okay, like, they ask you the most rudimentary questions and you're like, yes, I did apply to this job that I, I qualified for.
And then they're like, okay, you're gonna talk to the hiring manager. Then you talk to the hiring manager and the manager, the hiring manager's, like, oh, you have to go talk to these three other people in three separate meetings, and then you have to do a project and you're like. The pope was the pope, the current pope was hired in four days.
Like I, something's broken is, this is messed up. So the, my current job, I talked to the woman who hired me, her name is Rebecca. Mm-hmm. On Monday. And by Friday she had just said like, you're it
[00:15:58] Nora Elder: and you. So that's like, that's how you know there's a fit there. Definitely. There's just synergy. You find it. I love that.
[00:16:03] Michael Zarick: Um, thank you for sharing. What's the other part-time job?
[00:16:07] Nora Elder: The other part-time job is at the idle Jorg downtown. Oh my
[00:16:09] Michael Zarick: God. Wait, that's awesome.
[00:16:11] Nora Elder: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Um, and yeah, I work in the gift shop two days a week.
[00:16:15] Michael Zarick: Let's go.
[00:16:15] Nora Elder: Um, yeah, let's go. I'm in fact, I am literally going there right after here. Oh really?
Yeah. Um, but yeah, it's been so much fun to just like watch who comes in, learn the breadth of people that comes in with an interest in learning about Native American cultures and um, kind of western and diasporic cultures, which is super cool.
[00:16:38] Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:39] Nora Elder: Um, and. I think especially at the moment that we're in today.
Mm-hmm. Not to get too political.
[00:16:46] Michael Zarick: No. You are allowed to, you can say whatever you want.
[00:16:49] Nora Elder: Okay. Whatever
[00:16:49] Michael Zarick: you feel in your heart.
[00:16:51] Nora Elder: Well, my heart says everything's a dumpster fire right now, so in the midst of this dumpster fire, I think what I've enjoyed the most about working there is seeing just the number of people who have it in their hearts to come in and support the museum and support what it is that we're trying to do, which is like not let these histories get erased uhhuh.
And that is so incredibly important right now. And so, I mean, yeah, you could say like, oh girl, you only work in the retail store. Like whatever. But it's so much more than that.
[00:17:21] Michael Zarick: Yeah.
[00:17:22] Nora Elder: Um, and especially when you're in a place where you're giving people ways to remember their trip and remember their visit to this place, that's like trying to preserve a whole lot of really important history.
Um, I think it's
[00:17:37] Michael Zarick: especially history that was uh, if I may
[00:17:40] Nora Elder: Yeah.
[00:17:40] Michael Zarick: Like intentionally erased in a lot of cases.
[00:17:44] Nora Elder: Oh, absolutely. And you know, you hear stories all the time of folks coming in and being put off by the truth with which we present a lot of this stuff.
[00:17:56] Michael Zarick: Uhhuh, I still have yet to go in, but I have some free tickets, so.
[00:17:59] Nora Elder: Oh yeah. I'll be, I'll be there. Well come see me. I'm there Tuesdays and Thursdays. I'll text you. I'll be like, are you there? And I'll be like, yeah, here we are. But yeah, so those are my two part-time gigs in between those in Marble. I am quite busy, but loving that amount of busy.
[00:18:15] Michael Zarick: So I'm so glad that you feel that Marble is, uh, is going well.
Mm-hmm. Because I was, 'cause we talked about having you on and I was like, oh, November will be a perfect time to release this 'cause it's about a year. Yeah. And talk, I was thinking that maybe. You would feel some sense of failure or some negative vibe in that way. Mm-hmm. And I was interested to hear your perspective, but I love to hear that you think it's going well and that you're finding success with people.
[00:18:42] Nora Elder: Yeah.
[00:18:43] Michael Zarick: Um,
[00:18:43] Nora Elder: and that, that in and of itself has truly been a journey uhhuh because, um, I think by a lot of the markers of success that I would have subscribed to even a year ago, I am a failure in a lot of ways. Mm-hmm. Like, I'm not making a ton of money doing that just yet. Um, and, you know, I'm supporting myself with two other part-time jobs at this moment.
[00:19:07] Michael Zarick: Definitely.
[00:19:07] Nora Elder: But part of this project, and part of why I continue to be so passionate about it has been helping myself kind of redefine what success even means.
[00:19:16] Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:17] Nora Elder: And if I can look back over my calendar for a given day and say, oh, I enjoyed that. Oh, I enjoyed that. Oh, that was really impactful. Oh, I met some cool people there.
Like, that to me means success. And on top of that. We now have, um, whoa. That branch almost took me out, Uhhuh. Um, in addition to that, we also now have two rescue dogs at home. Well, that's good. Um, and I've got plenty of time to spend with them mm-hmm. And make sure that they're well taken care of. And yeah.
I just, I feel like I have a much more diverse and all encapsulating kind of definition of what success means. Mm-hmm. And if I look at it that way, I'm quite successful.
[00:20:01] Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:02] Nora Elder: Um, and I also feel so much better now. And I think that's like kind of the crux of all of it.
[00:20:06] Michael Zarick: Yeah. And I think personally, like a lot of people's definition of success, especially in America, has to do with financial success.
Yep. Rather than something else. Mm-hmm. And not to say you're not financially successful. Yeah. I certainly don't consider myself financially successful. Um, are
[00:20:24] Nora Elder: you living, do you either feel.
[00:20:27] Michael Zarick: Exactly. That's, and you're doing well. That's kind of how I feel right now, where it's like my wife and I are happy, we are comfortable, uh, certainly more comfortable than a lot of Americans are.
[00:20:37] Nora Elder: Yeah.
[00:20:38] Michael Zarick: Um,
[00:20:39] Nora Elder: and there is that.
[00:20:40] Michael Zarick: And so when I, when I take it in perspective, it's like I am, I'm doing really well and I, I do consider myself successful. I have this podcast, which generates no monetary value, but it generates joy and happiness for me and, and some people who listen. So I think in a lot of ways that yeah, you have like
[00:20:55] Nora Elder: a dedicated following and you're talking about something you're really passionate about.
Mm-hmm. Which is very successful.
[00:21:01] Michael Zarick: so one question I have, I, the, the time is upside down, so I think it says 20 minutes. Um, so getting into the idea of should we go right?
[00:21:13] Nora Elder: Yeah. Let's get away from, we're like
[00:21:14] Michael Zarick: literally walking through a jungle. Um, I've
[00:21:18] Nora Elder: never done this path in this direction before. Oh, that, so I'm like, all right, all bets are off.
I don't know.
[00:21:22] Michael Zarick: So we. Let me, let me stop for a second so I can figure out the question. Yeah. Even it's so hard to walk and talk, literally.
[00:21:31] Nora Elder: It can be, um, I'm covered in burrs, so that'll gimme. So I also am, I feel like a dog That's so funny.
[00:21:38] Michael Zarick: As a self-advocacy, um, advisor.
[00:21:41] Nora Elder: Strategist. Strategist.
[00:21:42] Michael Zarick: Oh my god, my god.
[00:21:43] Nora Elder: Hey, it's my fault. I picked such a mouthful. Mostly 'cause I didn't wanna call myself a coach 'cause everybody's a coach.
[00:21:51] Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:51] Nora Elder: And I wanted to differentiate, like, we're in here talking about skills uhhuh, we're in here talking about like strategizing around situations where you need to, you know, you know
[00:21:59] Michael Zarick: the term, uh, the acronym SaaS
[00:22:01] Nora Elder: Yeah.
Software as service.
[00:22:03] Michael Zarick: You like, you're like doing SaaS, but with people kind of Yeah. Uh,
[00:22:07] Nora Elder: skills as a service. Skills
[00:22:08] Michael Zarick: as a service. Um, so one of the things you mentioned to me when you initially were like, Hey, I want to come on, you were talking about selfishness. Mm-hmm. But reframing selfish. In a way that doesn't necessarily feel truly selfish.
It's more within the, within the lines of your sas. Mm-hmm. Self-advocacy. Can you talk, are you still running with that, uh, line?
[00:22:31] Nora Elder: Absolutely. Okay.
[00:22:32] Michael Zarick: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Talk to me about that. As a matter
[00:22:33] Nora Elder: of fact, I have a workshop, um, the third cohort of which is gonna be at the beginning of December. So plug, plug, plug.
Um, yeah, that workshop is called Getting Selfish, and it all kinda sprung out of this little moment that I had toward the end of last year where I don't know why. I just got really interested in like the etymological definition of selfishness. And so for anyone who doesn't know, etymology is like the history and kind of roots of words.
And so tracing them back to their origins. Yes. And what I found, which was so interesting is that the words. Means one's zone, person, and then ish, like to the right as a suffix means either containing the qualities of or belonging to. And so if you take it literally all selfish really means is belonging to yourself.
Which I was like, holy shit. You know? Like what a cool, powerful idea to be able to belong to yourself above, above anybody else to be primarily responsible for and accountable to yourself. And I think that that really just sort of like was what I was trying to do was first do that for myself, to really understand myself to the point where I could say, okay, these are the things that matter to me.
Here's how I need to communicate to make sure that other people understand what matters to me. These are the things I need to do in order to make sure that I'm spending my time in ways that align with that. And it goes on and on, right?
[00:24:16] Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:17] Nora Elder: And then after I did that for myself, I wanted to help other people do that as well.
And so that was why, that's where getting selfish came from. Makes sense. Was this very literal definition of selfishness, like belonging to yourself. But what we also talk about at the very beginning of the workshop is exploring why selfishness took on such a negative connotation and why society told us that thinking about ourselves and meeting our own, our own needs first was bad.
So that's a whole other thing.
[00:24:54] Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm. But also like reframing it in your way not to. 'cause I also like to think of myself as selfless. Yeah. Not to stroke my ego, but uh. Advocating for yourself where it matters. Yeah. Whether that's advocating for higher pay Yes. Or more free time with your dog who is struggling with health.
Yes. Or making time to go to those third spaces and places.
[00:25:28] Nora Elder: Absolutely. Um, rather
[00:25:29] Michael Zarick: than selfishness in the I deserve more than somebody else.
[00:25:34] Nora Elder: Exactly. Exactly. Is
[00:25:36] Michael Zarick: that, am I along the, the lines of thinking?
[00:25:39] Nora Elder: You really are. Um, and I think the theme that we keep coming back to in all the workshops and all the, with all the people that I coach, is by being selfish in the right ways.
By living through your values and sticking up for yourself to the point where you know, you have energy and you have time and you have resources to spare, Uhhuh actually makes you. A better human in the world because what it allows you to do is then take some of those energy reserves and give back to the world in a way that is unique to you.
Definitely. Like for instance, with what I'm doing with my business, I'm not just doing this for me.
[00:26:19] Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:20] Nora Elder: Um, I take a lot of pride in the number of people that I've helped and the number of folks that I have kind of given an opportunity to like, think of these things for themselves. Mm-hmm. And that is the form that my personal impact is taking.
And I never would've been able to like, have that increased impact on the world around me had I not had a moment where I was like, no, no. Okay. I need to, I need to spend my time doing something else.
[00:26:51] Michael Zarick: Definitely. So what are, um, do you mind if we sit, yeah. My arm is getting tired. No,
[00:26:57] Nora Elder: you're good.
[00:26:58] Michael Zarick: Keep that in.
I was like,
[00:27:00] Nora Elder: let's head toward the.
[00:27:03] Michael Zarick: The so what for someone else who's struggling with the same things you previously struggled with mm-hmm. And probably still struggle with to an extent.
[00:27:11] Nora Elder: Oh yeah. It's a process.
[00:27:13] Michael Zarick: What would you say to be like, like are you gonna tell them to quit their job and like go off and do their own adventure?
Or are you, what is your sort of idea of becoming selfish?
[00:27:24] Nora Elder: Oh, I love that question. Um,
[00:27:28] Michael Zarick: you can pick a spot.
[00:27:28] Nora Elder: So if folks follow me on social media or anything, and they've followed my own personal journey, they might think that I would just tell anyone to quit their job and go do their own thing. But that's not really the case.
What I'm trying to do is help people gain a better understanding of the ways that they relate to the ways that they're spending their time. Mm-hmm. And so there are plenty of people that I've worked with who are like, no, I wanna reengage in my job and I wanna do more in my job. And I'm like, cool, let's help you do that.
Yeah, definitely. Um, oh, that's a fun gadget. I love that.
[00:28:01] Michael Zarick: We're, I'm transitioning to not having to hold this. Really. That's
[00:28:05] Nora Elder: great. Yeah. I am impressed with your arm strength. That was great. Um, and so, yeah, I, it's hard to answer that question because like, I'm never going to just prescribe a path or an approach to somebody.
Um, the coaching part of what I do is mostly driven by questions to help people kind of determine and understand, okay, here's this thing that I'm going through, here's how I'm feeling about it, and here's how we could make it better incrementally one step at a time. Mm-hmm. So for a lot of folks, that does just mean kind of carving out stuff that doesn't matter anymore so that they can refocus on their family or refocus on their job or find a new hobby.
Um, there are other people though, that I've talked to where they're like, yep, I knew my job was a problem and now I have words to express how much of a problem it was. And so now let's talk about where maybe I could or should be instead.
[00:28:56] Michael Zarick: Okay. I'm gonna ask a hard question now.
[00:28:58] Nora Elder: Please do.
[00:28:59] Michael Zarick: Why would I come to you rather than a therapist?
[00:29:02] Nora Elder: Oh, thank you for that question as well. Yeah. So coaching and therapy are different. Mm-hmm. I am not a therapist, and if we were to ever get into a spot in one of our conversations that kind of falls into the realm of therapy, I would say, oh, that's therapist land. Okay. Um, want you to write down and Yes.
Okay. Okay. Yeah, I do. Um, the kind of professional line between therapy and coaching is coaching, uh, focuses on the present and future. So it's more about like, okay, here's where we are, here's how we're feeling about it, and here are some tangible action steps and like habit forms or habits that we can try.
Mm-hmm. Um, in order to improve our circumstances. Therapy is a little bit more focused on the past, where it's sort of like the root causes behind things. Um, and of course in therapy you are still going to get lots of, you know, practical tools and approaches for life, but coaching is a little bit more of that situational, like, Hey, alright, there's a thing that I'm dealing with right now.
I am absolutely struggling to, um, let's say communicate with Bob at work and here's what Bob says to me, and here's how I feel about it. And then I would ask a couple of reframing questions and we would determine together, okay, next time you're talking to Bob, what are you gonna say? How are you gonna approach it?
Mm-hmm. And, um, how can you make that circumstance a little bit better for yourself?
[00:30:26] Michael Zarick: So let me, let me put this in. Michael words coaching or strategy, I'm gonna use your word is more about how you're at least mostly focused on how you're dealing with other people, external, external conflict, whereas therapy is maybe more focused on internal conflict.
[00:30:46] Nora Elder: Not really. Oh, okay. They're. They're both very focused on the internal, because the internal is really all you can control.
[00:30:53] Michael Zarick: Okay.
[00:30:54] Nora Elder: Um, but
[00:30:55] Michael Zarick: banger, I like that. Yeah.
[00:30:57] Nora Elder: And I mean, truly what's going on internally may not be your fault, but it is your responsibility. Right. And so, um, again, when I notice if a person has a lot of just regular thought patterns that feel like they would be a better fit for a therapist, I will call that out and I'll say, Hey, have you thought about going to see a therapist?
Because I think they could help you in these areas.
[00:31:18] Michael Zarick: Yeah.
[00:31:18] Nora Elder: Um, but the internal stuff in coaching has a lot more to do with, okay, here's how I'm feeling in this moment. Here's maybe why I am feeling this way, but let's now come up with some ways to talk ourselves through in the moment. Um, how to get to a more productive feeling state so we can then deal with the external world a little bit more effectively.
Um, and then where I differentiate from a lot of coaches is that I then will pile the skill building on top of that. And so. Let's say, for instance, I've got a client who really just struggles to say no to their spouse, um, about something that they really just is not a good use of their time, whatever.
And so we'll talk about, well, why do you struggle to say no in those moments? And then I'll give them a framework for, okay, here's one really effective way that you can say no, in this moment. Here are some words that you might try. Um, here are some alternatives that you might offer, and let's run through the scenario a couple of times until you feel really comfortable and really confident that you could actually go and have that conversation.
Mm-hmm. Then next session, they'll come back, they'll tell me how it went, and we'll continue to workshop until it's a situation that's workable.
[00:32:30] Michael Zarick: Amazing. Uh, I have one last question about this, and I'll let you talk about whatever you want, and then we can move on to my canned questions. As I say, love it.
Uh, are you still doing pay what you, I, I don't know what term you use, pay what you want or. What you can, what's the
[00:32:46] Nora Elder: term of use? Yeah. So I started by calling it pay what you can. And now I'm just calling it pick your price. And so, um, how that works essentially is for any of the workshops that I put on just as a public offering.
Um, I decided this last time around that instead of trying to assess a fee mm-hmm. Like a regular fee for it, I would give people the option to just pay whatever made sense, um, for their budget as well as I recognize that there are a lot of people that are like, huh, that sounds cool, but I'm not really sure like what I exactly would get out of this experience.
And so they're totally free to come in and pay me 15 bucks if they want to and 'cause it's more important to me that folks come and get out of it, what they're gonna get out of it rather than that I make a buck. Yeah. Um, and so yeah, that's kind of the, the ethos behind it is that I never wanted budget or access to finances to be a barrier to people getting.
The foundations behind self-advocacy that they need.
[00:33:46] Michael Zarick: So from a selfish standpoint, um, two-parter. Mm-hmm. Have you have people followed up with you after those workshops be like, oh, I could, I'm gonna work with Nora.
[00:33:56] Nora Elder: Yes. Okay. They definitely have. And
[00:33:58] Michael Zarick: that's where the real price probably comes in. That
[00:34:01] Nora Elder: is, yeah.
You know, or a real
[00:34:02] Michael Zarick: talk about price. I guess
[00:34:03] Nora Elder: that is where the more kind of, um, I would say standardized pricing does come in.
[00:34:08] Michael Zarick: Okay.
[00:34:08] Nora Elder: Um, although if there's a person who just really, really needs the support and does not have the funds, um, we'll talk about how to, how to work that out. I'm not ever just trying to make a profit off of somebody just for the profit.
Yeah. Um, but yeah, typically when folks register for the workshop, they will also take me up on my offer for a, um, free 60 minute coaching session afterward. Mm-hmm. I'll usually tell people like, Hey, wait about a month or so after the workshop so that you can really like go try some stuff. Um, reflect, see how it's going, and then we'll come in and we'll really get to the coaching.
Yeah. We'll really like actually make something out of that and then, uh, follow up. That's usually when people are like, yep, okay, let's continue.
[00:34:49] Michael Zarick: Yeah. Tying this to myself, but also follow up for you as somebody who provides a free service in a lot of ways, uh, I made a declarative statement last episode, which I stand by that I will not put any episodes behind a paywall in any way, but I think there's a lot of people out there who would say, if you're offering whatever product you have for free mm-hmm.
Then it's worthless. Uh, what would you say to someone like me who, you know, it would be nice to make money off the podcast, although I really enjoy doing it for free. Mm-hmm. It's, it's a service I like to provide. Mm-hmm. But for yourself, who maybe somebody doesn't pay for to come to your,, workshop.
Mm-hmm. Uh, like what do you think of that sort of like model?
[00:35:33] Nora Elder: Um,
[00:35:34] Michael Zarick: does that make sense?
[00:35:35] Nora Elder: It does. Yeah. I think so. My first reaction is that I kind of feel bad for anybody who equates value and worth with just money.
[00:35:44] Michael Zarick: Mm.
[00:35:45] Nora Elder: Um, I think there's so much beyond the financials that, um, that equates value and worth and quality.
Mm-hmm. Um, and especially since leaving the corporate environment, um, I've really found that most of the most impactful moments that I've been able to be a part of have had absolutely no, no dollar amount attached to them. Um, and so, yeah, I mean, I think I'm gonna stand behind my model for as long as I can.
The other part of it though, is that money does need to come from somewhere in order to sustain a business. Yeah. And so, um, I do have different pricing structures for organizations that I work with. Of course, I've got a couple of corporate clients. I have a couple of non-profit clients, and those are gonna look a little bit different.
But anytime that I'm putting a public offering out there, um, sort of in the same way that you're doing this podcast. Mm-hmm. You know, anytime that I am saying, Hey, I'm putting on a workshop, I'd love for just anyone in the community to come. Yeah. I'm never gonna say, and you have to have access to $250 in order to be here.
[00:36:49] Michael Zarick: Yeah.
[00:36:50] Nora Elder: Um, that just doesn't feel good to me. Mm-hmm. And I don't think it ever would, but it's
[00:36:52] Michael Zarick: more like, if I know you have the means, you're gonna share those means with me. Is that what
[00:36:58] Nora Elder: I started actually with that, but then I also realized that like, people will pay what things, what they think things are worth.
And so I've had such a range, like this last workshop that I put on, I had such a range of people. Oh, that's so interesting. One person paid $1 and one person paid a three figure amount That I won't disclose on here. That's, that's, that's cool. Um, but yeah, so it's really interesting. But the, the funny thing is when people show up into the space, it's always the folks who paid the lease that are like, wow.
I wish I'd given you more. Oh, you're
[00:37:31] Michael Zarick: like, you can, there's a tip jar over here,
[00:37:33] Nora Elder: there. I mean, yeah. And I've actually been talking to one of my marketing friends about that. She's like, you know, you should have like a tipping feature available because um, there is that, that potential that folks are gonna come in and be like, I wish that I'd pay more for this.
And my thing is like, if you wish that, then let's have a couple coaching sessions instead and like really get the value that you want to get out of this.
[00:37:53] Michael Zarick: Definitely. Uh, alright, is there anything else in this realm that you wanted to discuss?
[00:37:59] Nora Elder: Um, I'm wondering if this is gonna step on any of your questions, but No, probably
[00:38:03] Michael Zarick: not.
[00:38:04] Nora Elder: I did wanna just like chat quickly about the connections between the work that I do and third places, because I mean, since that's, Hey,
[00:38:12] Michael Zarick: let's ask the question.
[00:38:15] Nora Elder: Do, do I have
[00:38:15] Michael Zarick: my book with me? I surely do. Did I put it in my pocket?
[00:38:19] Nora Elder: How busy getting some of these burrs off? My
[00:38:22] Michael Zarick: Third Space Indy is sponsored by.
City Rising LLC? No, no. Well, I mean, if you want, if you want, um, Third Space Indy is sponsored by City Rising. Mm-hmm. Mark Latta has decided to gimme some money Oh. To give him a shout out. Do you know Mark Latta? No, I don't. You said said it was such a No, I'm excited for Oh, you just didn't know. Oh, I see. Um, I actually, I have a, I have a, I wrote this myself.
I don't know if it's exactly what he wanted me to say, but I think it's the most succinct way to say what he does. City Rising is a social impact studio that is seeking to help organizations and leaders create practices that cultivate communities. Yeah. Love that. So it's sort of like a, I think of him as a nonprofit consultant, but he does, works with anybody who's willing to work with him, um, to build sort of practices that help create a sense of place in whatever community you're trying to work within.
Mm-hmm. Um, and I've heard great success stories. So if you're, if that sounds like you and you want help, reach out to City Rising. Go to city rising.org or reach out to me and I'll connect you with Mark. Mm-hmm. Uh, yeah. But anyways, Mark has sponsored a question, which is, uh, what is a third place to you?
Third space to you. I should use the name of my podcast.
[00:39:36] Nora Elder: A third location. No, just kidding. A third space to me is somewhere that you can go and just be, that is not home or work. And I know that's the very like clinical definition of it. Mm-hmm. But it's so incredibly important, especially now when it feels like technology and the algorithm and all of the like divisiveness everywhere is kind of driving us apart and driving us underground and making us afraid of each other.
Mm-hmm. I think it's so incredibly important to have these spaces that you can just go and show up and be in face to face community with people. Um, and there are so many different, like kinds of third spaces. Um, the, the joke you made at the beginning of this podcast about, um, this park being one of my favorite third spaces.
Mm-hmm. You're absolutely right. Yeah, it is. Um, to me, a third space is also not a place that you pay to play. Um, I am, I have feelings about
[00:40:33] Michael Zarick: that.
[00:40:34] Nora Elder: Okay. Yeah. And I'd love to hear them because I think, I mean, just like, just like with my workshop, I don't believe that money should be a barrier to community. Um, and I think a third space should be somewhere where folks come to receive support as well as to provide it.
And a lot of times that has nothing to do with money, in my opinion.
[00:40:53] Michael Zarick: My thought on that is that there are places like coffee shops Oh,
[00:40:56] Nora Elder: sure.
[00:40:56] Michael Zarick: Like libraries which require tax dollars. Mm-hmm. Like, uh, restaurants and pubs mm-hmm. That you do need to financially support so that they can be maintained. That's fair.
Like ceramic studios, shout out to ceramic studios always. Um. You know, I, I think it's okay to, I, I do agree with you that mm-hmm. You should feel comfortable going into a space without paying. Mm-hmm. But if you always treat a place as free or you don't have that personal investment both fiscally and emotionally mm-hmm.
Uh, that you, we will see what we have now, which is fewer of those.
[00:41:33] Nora Elder: That's true. Yeah. And, um, that's an excellent point. And you're pushing me to clarify a little bit. Um, I mostly just mean like membership type things, which I think there's definitely a place for those two. I am a part of multiple, like I think that actually falls under
[00:41:48] Michael Zarick: the, a similar sort of way of thinking.
Yeah. 'cause sometimes membership organizations, you know, you, like I think of unions. Mm-hmm. Unions are important for self-advocacy as well.
[00:41:58] Nora Elder: A thousand percent. They definitely are.
[00:41:58] Michael Zarick: Uh, and without dues, you, you can't have a union.
[00:42:03] Nora Elder: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's fair.
[00:42:05] Michael Zarick: Yeah.
[00:42:05] Nora Elder: And I think, I guess what I'm saying with that is that the money should not.
Like, if I'm thinking about a hoity-toity members only club mm-hmm. Um, yes there is a certain type of community that you can get there, but what are you leaving on the table by? Um, forcibly removing a certain people, a certain set of people just because they cannot afford it.
[00:42:28] Michael Zarick: Definitely.
[00:42:28] Nora Elder: Um, and yeah, I mean I have plenty of bars and coffee shops and places that I absolutely love and we'll go and spend money there, but they don't charge a cover.
Yeah. I think is what I'm saying.
[00:42:38] Michael Zarick: Absolutely. Yo, shout out to the Columbia Club. Nora Elder wants you to blow up,
[00:42:43] Nora Elder: not blow up. Just open your doors a little bit.
[00:42:48] Michael Zarick: Did I ever tell you the Columbia Club story?
[00:42:49] Nora Elder: Yes. You did? Oh,
[00:42:50] Michael Zarick: okay. That's funny. Uh, I won't, that's one of my favorite stories. I love it. Re oh yeah, that's right.
That was when you gave your talk at Orangily.
[00:42:57] Nora Elder: Mm-hmm.
[00:42:58] Michael Zarick: Um, how do you say it? Orangily
[00:43:00] Nora Elder: Orangily.
[00:43:01] Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm. You remove the i.
[00:43:03] Nora Elder: Yeah.
[00:43:04] Michael Zarick: Um, alright. Uh, next question. Mm-hmm. Also canned, uh. Uh, by extension of what is a third space to you, what is a third space that you have had in your past that no longer exists that you miss?
[00:43:20] Nora Elder: Well, the avenue I would say. Oh, the coffee shop. Yeah. Yeah. Shout out
[00:43:26] Michael Zarick: to Eric. I need to reach out to that guy. Uh, Eric was the owner of the Avenue on college. Mm-hmm. I think he's, he had plans to do other, are you friends with him? Have you messaged him? No. No, I
[00:43:35] Nora Elder: haven't. Um, and I actually like, never met Eric, but just the number of times that I was in that shop, um, and ended up, like, I went in there thinking I was gonna get a cup of coffee and leave, and then ended up being in there for three or four hours.
Like, it was just such a lovely, welcoming environment. The soundtrack was always bombed, like always popping. That's true. Everything that I wanted to hear was playing. Um, the food was great. The con, like everyone was super friendly. You could walk up to anyone and just have a conversation. It was so lovely.
Mm-hmm. Um, and so RIP The Avenue for sure. Um, and then, let's see, I'll reach really far back in my past. Um, I went to Reed College in Portland, Oregon, and our, one of our favorite third uh, spaces there was just our student union on campus. Um, and I say that because, like, I think that our higher education system is broken in a lot of ways.
Mm-hmm. But we can take a lot of really good cues from the ways in which, um, students are just inspired and encouraged to gather in places and, you know, just like lounge on benches and have conversations and drink tea at a random spot. And so, like, I love those types of third places that are just like, here's a building, let's see what happens in this building.
Yeah,
[00:44:58] Michael Zarick: definitely. I, uh, you actually just triggered a memory for me. We don't, we don't talk about a lot, but when Anna, my wife and I started. Date I have to mention Anna on every episode. You do.
[00:45:09] Nora Elder: I'm sure it's part of your,
[00:45:10] Michael Zarick: it's the shtick now. Uh, when we first started dating in 2018, we would go to the Indiana University blooming in Bloomington.
Mm-hmm. Uh, student union and between classes on certain days and just play Mario Kart on my switch. I love it. And no offense to Anna, she's really bad at Mario Kart. Uh, but there are assisted driving features, so, you know, it was fun. Uh, so that was like our original sort of like bonding moment is just like going together.
Anna is not a gamer, but like, because I like video games and stuff like that, she was like, I'm gonna do it. And Mario Kart's fun for everybody.
[00:45:44] Nora Elder: Mario Kart is fun for everybody. I will destroy on Mario Kart. Let it be known.
[00:45:49] Michael Zarick: Um, well thank you for sharing. Yeah. And to your point, colleges are an excellent example of how every, uh, lived environment should be built.
You know, they're conducive to connection in a lot of ways, and I think that's why a lot. I think in many ways college is so much more than. The price of admission. Mm-hmm. Because of the connections you make. That's always the, your network that you build. It's true. Yeah. Um, but in, and, and the real, the reality is like, that's true.
Mm-hmm. So many people hold onto what they have from college because of the way it's structured around connection.
[00:46:18] Nora Elder: Yeah. Very much so. Rather
[00:46:19] Michael Zarick: than just learning very much. So, uh, all that said, make college cheaper, please.
[00:46:23] Nora Elder: Oh my god. Or, you know, free or something. Or free. Yeah. Please free.
[00:46:28] Michael Zarick: Um, next question.
[00:46:31] Nora Elder: Mm-hmm.
[00:46:33] Michael Zarick: I have to actually open my book. 49. Is that a six or a nine?
[00:46:38] Nora Elder: I think it's a six.
[00:46:40] Michael Zarick: A six or a seven. Can I say that? Do you know that joke? No. No, I can't say it. What? There's a, it's young people speak. Okay. Um,
[00:46:49] Nora Elder: I'm too old for that.
[00:46:52] Michael Zarick: Okay. Uh, my previous guest, his name is Patrick Armstrong. He, oh, I was
[00:46:57] Nora Elder: just on his pod.
Oh, really? Yeah. Well, oh, the open door. It hasn't been released yet, but yeah.
[00:47:01] Michael Zarick: Are you supposed to talk about that? I don't know if he likes, I don't know if he, I'm competing with him. Uh, my previous podcast guest, Patrick Armstrong, uh, asked you a question. He actually asked two questions and I'm gonna ask both.
Okay. Even though he doesn't want me to, the first question is a little less serious. Mm-hmm. Uh, it's a, it's a, would you rather question? Oh, I love it. I think the answer is obvious, but you know, we'll talk about it. Uh, the first question is, would you rather wear shoes with no socks? But you can't, or, sorry, you have to wear shoes with no socks for the rest of your life.
Oh, okay. But you can't shower your feet, so you just got stinky feet for the rest of your life. Oh, no. Or you can only eat bacon. There's no negative side effects of eating that bacon, but you have no big toes.
[00:47:47] Nora Elder: Okay. So. One is stinky feet for the rest of your life effectively, and one is you have no big toe and you're eating nothing but bacon.
[00:47:56] Michael Zarick: Yeah. I'm gonna make a small addendum just to make this slightly more of a contention. Uh, I feel like you can eat just things with bacon in it, but as the sort of primary flavor.
[00:48:07] Nora Elder: Okay. And I think you're revealing your answer to this question.
[00:48:11] Michael Zarick: Yeah, probably. Um,
[00:48:12] Nora Elder: I am actually, I think, gonna make an unpopular choice and say, um, shoes with no socks, even though that's crazy and disgusting.
But you just said I couldn't shower my feet. You didn't say that. I couldn't like air them out or stomp around in a river or whatever. Plus
[00:48:32] Michael Zarick: you're kind of cheating also. I would, I think most people would pick that. Don't, because eating only bacon is just like horrifying.
[00:48:38] Nora Elder: It is horrifying. And you know, I don't, I don't want that.
I, I don't wanna like hate bacon 'cause I really like bacon, but I feel like if I eat too much of it, I would hate it. And more importantly, I need my big toes. I spend so much time walking. I walk with my clients. I walk my dogs every single day. I'm a big hiker. I need to be able to walk. And without big toes, you have no balance.
So
[00:49:02] Michael Zarick: That's true. Much more difficult.
[00:49:03] Nora Elder: Mm-hmm.
[00:49:04] Michael Zarick: Um, I would say that's, so stay away from, the reason I made the addendum to the bacon is 'cause I feel like that is obviously the wrong choice, but I don't know, whatever. Um, one o on the topic of bacon, we went to the state fair this year. Mm-hmm. And I have never, every time this is, it's such an internal conflict.
Like I think about, I was ve uh, vegetarian for like five years mm-hmm. Between like 2016 and 20 20, 20 21. And then moving to Arkansas. Of course, once you move to a deeply conservative state, you become non-vegetarian. You
[00:49:35] Nora Elder: become a carnivore. Yeah. Pretty sure that's a joke.
[00:49:37] Michael Zarick: Uh, but we went to the state fair this year and I have never wanted to return to being vegetarian or become vegan.
More than like, interacting with the pigs there. They're so sweet. They're so sweet. They're so cute. And like they want, they just want little pets.
[00:49:51] Nora Elder: Yeah.
[00:49:51] Michael Zarick: And then you're like, oh, you're, you're like a slaughter pig like you are after. And that's like, so sad. I know, I know. Uh, nothing. I dunno. This is, that's the things I think about.
No,
[00:50:02] Nora Elder: seriously though. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you another plug. It's not within the city limits. Mm-hmm. But um, you should go to Oinking Acres.
[00:50:11] Michael Zarick: Oh my God. Have you been? No. But that sounds awesome. I already don't even know what it is, but that sounds amazing.
[00:50:14] Nora Elder: Oh, it's amazing. It's a pig rescue. Yeah. Um, but they also have like chickens and ducks and, and you know, other farm animals and things.
Mm-hmm. And like most of them you can pet, you can feed them, you can do all the things. Um, but yeah, you might actually become a vegetarian after going there.
[00:50:28] Michael Zarick: next question also from Patrick. Thanks Patrick. For these, uh, a little more lighthearted, uh, what book had the most significant impact on you growing up?
[00:50:43] Nora Elder: Oh, man, that's a good question.
[00:50:47] Michael Zarick: You can do whatever. What you determine growing up is.
[00:50:51] Nora Elder: Um, I mean, yeah, there's definitely like periods of my life.
I think what's coming to mind right now is, um, East of Eden phenomenal book. I have
[00:51:03] Michael Zarick: that on my shelf. That book is dry. Is that,
[00:51:06] Nora Elder: it's, it's dry, but there are just some absolutely gorgeous parts in it. And there, I mean like mm-hmm. I could flip to any page and find a phrase that I want to tattoo on myself.
[00:51:18] Michael Zarick: Are there, are there quotes that come to mind?
[00:51:20] Nora Elder: Um, there's the idea of timshel. Um, which of course now that I'm like on camera and being recorded, I cannot necesssarily remember what it is, but look it up, timshel, T-I-M-S-H-E-L-S-H-E-L. Yeah. It's in the show notes. Yeah, in the show notes. We'll find it in the show notes.
Mm-hmm. But I just, I remember that sticking with me, um, throughout just the rest of, um, the time that I was after. I was like really kind of encapsulated in that book. Which, what
[00:51:47] Michael Zarick: age did you read that?
[00:51:49] Nora Elder: 21 maybe 21 or 22. How young are
[00:51:52] Michael Zarick: you now?
[00:51:53] Nora Elder: I love that I'm 35.
[00:51:55] Michael Zarick: Oh, you're not, what
[00:51:57] Nora Elder: fuck.
[00:51:59] Michael Zarick: You're like, I'm so old.
[00:52:01] Nora Elder: I'm too old for Gen Z to speak. Whatever, whatever number stuff you were talking about. Um, but yeah. And then a little bit more recently, a book that I really liked, um, that I think everyone should also read is Flight Behavior by Barbara, Barbara King, solver. Um, I like
[00:52:18] Michael Zarick: that name.
[00:52:19] Nora Elder: Yeah. Right. King solver. It's really cool.
Um, but she does a phenomenal job of like weaving together, um, basically like Appalachian culture with, um, butterfly science. Mm-hmm. In a really interesting way. Oh, king, maker
[00:52:34] Michael Zarick: butterfly, or no, that's the name of the solver. It was flight. Flight. Flight behavior. Flight behavior. It's about
[00:52:41] Nora Elder: monarchs and them showing up to a place that they're not supposed to be.
And so there's like a lot of, um, really important biology that's in there as well. Um, you're gonna learn a lot about butterflies, but you're also going to, um, just like get swept away by this really beautiful story as well.
[00:52:57] Michael Zarick: Are there any like young childhood books that stick out to you?
Are you like a hungry caterpillars?
[00:53:04] Nora Elder: Oh, for sure, for sure. Um, the Very Hungry Caterpillar was one. Um, Charlie, the Caterpillar was another one. Charlie Caterpillar. I did, I did read things that weren't about Caterpillars, but, or butterflies or butterfly. Yeah. Geez. Wow. I'm really pigeon holing myself. But, um, Charlie, the Caterpillar's a good one because it's all about this little caterpillar that learns how to, you know, accept himself as a caterpillar, even though everyone makes fun of him.
Yeah. And at the end he turns into this beautiful butterfly and everyone wants to be his friend, and he is like, where were all of you at the beginning? Mm-hmm. Of all of this. Yeah. Um, so it's an interesting story, I think, for kids. Um, and then Yeah, of course. Like, you know, my mom and I used to read things out loud a lot too, and so Huck Finn, um, Lord of the Flies, weirdly,
[00:53:54] Michael Zarick: You read that as a child with your, with your mom?
With
[00:53:56] Nora Elder: my mom, yeah. When I was 11 or so, we read Lord of the Flies together. Oh my God. And it was like, I loved it. I had a phenomenal time. You're like, I want
[00:54:05] Michael Zarick: to go to an island.
[00:54:06] Nora Elder: Yeah, I was like, I think I could survive. And my mom's just like, do not test that theory. But, um, yeah. So I don't know. I always like had mature tastes.
I think that's, that's funny. I grew up on The Simpsons, you know?
[00:54:18] Michael Zarick: Mm. Well thank you for sharing. Mm-hmm. Uh, is there anything else? Sorry, that's a five four. Yeah, we're at the end. Yeah, that's five four. Wow. Is there anything else you wanna talk about?
[00:54:28] Nora Elder: I would just say in some, um, mostly 'cause I feel like I haven't articulated it yet.
Um, the thing that self-advocacy has to do with third spaces is that the better you know yourself, the better you understand your values and the things that are important to you, the more clear it becomes who is in your community and the types of communities that you really wanna chase and should chase.
And, um, I think by just getting a better foundation of. like Hmm. How do I like to feel? What matters to me? All of those types of things. Um, suddenly the world opens up in front of you of like, oh, there's a space for that. There's, um, you know, there's a place across town that actually does that. Um, but the less time that you give yourself to really figure that out, the more you just sort of take your communities for granted and don't necessarily push beyond your, your set comfort zone.
And so I just encourage everybody to like really reflect, really think, do that internal work, and you'll be shocked at how that internal work will translate out into the friends you make and the people that you impact and you know, the places that you drink coffee and eat your dinner and, and all the things.
Um, so yeah.
[00:55:48] Michael Zarick: Hmm. What are you reflecting on right now?
[00:55:52] Nora Elder: I am reflecting on how to make the best of the winter months. Hmm. Um, I am a very. I'm actually a homebody, which is sort of funny. Yeah. Um, considering like all of this community building that I've been trying to do lately, um, and especially in the winter, I have a bad habit of just like snuggling under blankets and playing Minecraft and watching movies and making soups and stews.
That's funny. Um, and so now I'm, I am really thinking about how can I make those activities a little bit more communal and bring more folks into that? And
[00:56:29] Michael Zarick: Minecraft is a multiplayer game.
[00:56:30] Nora Elder: It is, it is.
[00:56:32] Michael Zarick: Play Minecraft with your friends. There's nothing like we have like, this happens. Uh, so I have like a disco, you know what Discord is?
Yeah. Uh, for those who don't know Discords, like millennial Skype. That's probably the easiest way to say that. we have like an annual, like Minecraft like motion. It's like two or three weeks of like, Hey, let's play Minecraft. And it's like you, there's. It's kind of stupid. It's like, oh, you play for three weeks and then you just like throw it away like you're done.
And it's like, it's like there's no continuation. It's just like, oh, it doesn't feel like building a, a house. Yeah.
On a
mountain or something.
[00:57:07] Nora Elder: Yeah. That's how I play. And I only really play between November and February. Typically just minutes. Perfect months for
[00:57:14] Michael Zarick: Minecraft. Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's like
[00:57:16] Nora Elder: a cozy game.
I love it. But
[00:57:17] Michael Zarick: yeah. Uh, the original creator of Minecraft Nazi, did you know that?
[00:57:21] Nora Elder: Uh oh,
[00:57:22] Michael Zarick: Notch. Yeah. Oh no, he sold it. He doesn't, he is not associated with it anymore, so that's good. Okay,
[00:57:25] Nora Elder: good. Although my,
[00:57:26] Michael Zarick: I don't think Microsoft is better. They own it now, so Microsoft definitely not better.
[00:57:29] Nora Elder: Let's just focus on how good the soundtrack is.
Let's just focus on,
[00:57:34] Michael Zarick: uh, okay. Sorry to take it there anyways.
[00:57:38] Nora Elder: No.
[00:57:39] Michael Zarick: One last question. We're
[00:57:40] Nora Elder: evaluating all my choices,
[00:57:41] Michael Zarick: Nora Elder, what question would you like to ask the next Third Space Indy guest?
[00:57:46] Nora Elder: Oh man. I would like to ask. Hmm.
This kind of feels basic, but I'm genuinely curious about this. First of all, are you an animal, mineral or vegetable?
[00:58:03] Michael Zarick: That's, I've not heard that question. Oh, I don't have my pen. That's
[00:58:06] Nora Elder: the question changed as it was coming outta my mouth originally. I was gonna ask, um, if you were an animal, what are you, but I'm gonna expand it a little bit.
Are you an animal, mineral, or vegetable? And from one of those three, what are you?
[00:58:21] Michael Zarick: Yeah.
[00:58:21] Nora Elder: Yeah. Do you have an answer to that question?
[00:58:24] Michael Zarick: Can I pick one of each?
[00:58:26] Nora Elder: Yeah.
[00:58:27] Michael Zarick: I've always felt deeply connected to, I don't know why red pandas. Those like red pandas.
[00:58:33] Nora Elder: I love red pandas. Yeah.
[00:58:35] Michael Zarick: The little dudes, they're
[00:58:36] Nora Elder: so cute. Or
[00:58:36] Michael Zarick: Tibetan foxes. Oh yeah. Have you ever seen like got big, flat faces? Mm-hmm.
[00:58:41] Nora Elder: They look very judgmental. Yeah. In a way they're like,
[00:58:44] Michael Zarick: yeah.
Although I've been told that I have the opposite of whatever resting bitch face is, that I just have like resting friendly face,
[00:58:49] Nora Elder: resting friend face. I don't know. Yeah.
[00:58:52] Michael Zarick: I don't know what it means, but I, I'll take it. Uh, vegetable.
Hmm.
Oh man. Okay. Maybe I'll skip this one. Maybe I just am an animal. Yeah. If I picked a mineral though, is, is an opal a mineral? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I always, I try to like, I'm not like into minerals, but like, if I were, I'm gonna pick with a birthstone, which is, I'm a October birthday. Oh, cool. Which is an opal. And I think when, when we go to like a Dru store and I see opal, I do feel, I'm like, dang, that is cool.
Yeah. But I can't afford it. So it's, you're
[00:59:27] Nora Elder: like, that's me though. Yeah. It's like, I
[00:59:28] Michael Zarick: like staring at the shiny woo. Wait,
[00:59:30] Nora Elder: has your birthday come and gone?
[00:59:32] Michael Zarick: Yeah, it's the first. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:59:34] Nora Elder: Well, happy belated. I'm
[00:59:35] Michael Zarick: 30.
[00:59:37] Nora Elder: Welcome.
[00:59:37] Michael Zarick: Yeah. To the old, to the old. The old, the olden days. I can't say that. 'cause it makes my mom feel self-conscious
[00:59:43] Nora Elder: and it makes me feel self-conscious.
But, uh, no, welcome. Your thirties are awesome.
[00:59:48] Michael Zarick: Okay. When I said vegetable immediately eggplant popped in my head. I don't know why.
[00:59:52] Nora Elder: Cool.
[00:59:52] Michael Zarick: But I just love a good, gorgeous purple.
[00:59:55] Nora Elder: Yes.
[00:59:56] Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm. Something. And it's
[00:59:57] Nora Elder: a very versatile vegetable too. You can cook it in a lot of ways. Yeah. You do so
[01:00:00] Michael Zarick: many things. Yeah.
All right. That's all I got. Love it. Anyways, let's round it out. Nora, please tell the people where they can find you. If they can find you.
[01:00:10] Nora Elder: Oh, I can be found. Um, my website is www.choosetheMarble.com. It's all one word. Um, and then you can follow me on Instagram at choose dot the dot Marble. Um, and I'm also on Substack, and you can find me@noraelder.substack.com.
[01:00:31] Michael Zarick: You gotta change the name of that one. I know. To Choose the Marble.
[01:00:34] Nora Elder: I know, I know. I dunno what I was thinking. Anyways,
[01:00:37] Michael Zarick: uh, that'll all be the show notes of course. But thank you Nora, for coming on. Yeah, I really, thanks for having me. I'm so glad I, this is a lovely place. I'll try to come out here again.
Yeah. My aunt and uncle live out here, so,
[01:00:46] Nora Elder: uh, yeah, you've got to, sorry, we crashed through the woods for the beginning of this.
[01:00:49] Michael Zarick: I'll need to like have you check my back for burrs. Yes, it uncovered. Thanks so much for watching. Third Space Indy You can find me at Third Space Indy on Instagram or third space indy.com where I write a blog and it releases every Monday.
If you gimme your email, I will send it to you. Uh, thank you so much to Mark Latta for sponsoring the podcast. Shout out to city rising.org. Thank you Jennasen as always, you're a local artist. You provide your music to the podcast. Thank you so much. and yeah, that's all I got. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll see you in the next one.
Goodbye.