Ep. 56 - Clockwork Janz - Frank'n'Steam
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Episode Summary
This week, I sat down with Clockwork Janz, the Creator of Frankensteam, in their backyard. We discussed the marriage of food and music in their work and life. We also talked about slowing down to spend time with friends, oral fixations, and holding hands with John Cage. I really had a great time talking to Clockwork, and I hope you enjoy this episode.
Sponsors:
City Rising (cityrising.org)
Proformus Urban Planning & Design
Intro music:
Scared Rabbit by Jennasen
Timestamps:
0:00 Intro/teaser
1:43 Show intro & guest intro
2:34 Meet Clockwork Janz
4:15 What is Frankensteam?
4:57 Origin of Frank
9:18 Solar power pivot
10:35 Getting into food
11:58 Grandma & cooking roots
19:15 Oral fixation theory
20:32 Music career overview
29:33 Creating presence through food & music
35:47 Sponsor / City Rising
44:05 John Cage & "4'33""
54:58 Question for next guest
56:17 Outro & where to find Clockwork
Episode Transcript
Clockwork Janz
Michael Zarick: [00:00:00] This week, I talked to Clockwork Janz, the creator of Frankensteam, a glorious hotdog cart that Clockwork plays music in while slinging hotdogs simultaneously. Clockwork embodies what I love about doing this podcast because all I knew going in was some basic information about someone who combines food and music, but was treated to a lovely conversation, a breakfast burrito, and espresso with someone filled with joy in their backyard.
You can see Frankensteam in action on June 30th from five to seven at the Eagle Creek Park Beach. keep in mind that's tomorrow from the day of release. And this is a rare occasion, so make sure you get out there. I will probably try to be there myself. Before the show, I wanna thank everyone who helps support the show.
And if you're interested in helping me sustain the podcast, you can go to support.thirdspaceindy.com or you can do something as simple as clicking [00:01:00] subscribe, liking the video, or leaving a review on your preferred podcast platform. Every little thing helps. Now, onto the show. I hope you enjoy
Clockwork Janz: Well, now.
Michael Zarick: Okay.
Clockwork Janz: I like now.
Michael Zarick: Okay. I like now
Clockwork Janz: as often. I like to, I like now. I'm always a... I don't know. I don't look back on parts of my life with, oh, college is the nostalgia. Nah, now is the best.
Michael Zarick: Yeah. '
Clockwork Janz: Cause now is what we have, and it's now.
Michael Zarick: Oh.
Clockwork Janz: And there's so much good stuff, and if you don't like now, then f*ckin' change something.
Michael Zarick: Hello, my name is Michael Zarick, and this is Third Space Indy. In 1989, a man named Ray Oldenburg wrote a book called The Great Good Place, and in this book he coined the term the third place. This describes a place that is outside of your home and outside of your work [00:02:00] that you can go be with others, build community, and just be yourself.
So I've made it my goal to find people all over Indianapolis who are doing their very best to make those types of spaces. Today, I was handed a beautiful breakfast burrito, which was mighty delicious. And I'm talking with somebody who was described to me as somebody who makes music with food, and that's as best as I've, I've got so far.
Mm-hmm. Um, and I'm so excited to talk to them. My guest today is Clockwork Janz. How you doing?
Clockwork Janz: Yeah. Hi, I'm good. How about you, Michael?
Michael Zarick: I'm doing really well. Good. I love your voice. It, it hits every time.
Clockwork Janz: Oh, thanks a lot.
Michael Zarick: Um, for anyone who may not know who you are, go ahead and give us a little spiel about who you are, what you're about, and what you do.
Clockwork Janz: Yeah. Hi, my name is Clockwork Janz. I use he or they pronouns, and, uh, I make music and I make food, and I make food with music, and I make music with [00:03:00] food. Uh, I do a lot of people organizing work. I was actually writing this down the other day. I call myself Clockwork. I found this name and renamed myself when I decided I wanted a name that did not denote a particular gender, and that people would remember because it said something about me.
So I promise what I deliver. I am timely, I am well organized, and I set up systems for people to operate functionally, a lot of what I do as a composer, and then I take that into, uh, social people settings as well.
Michael Zarick: So that's- I- Yeah. First of all, you answered my first question immediately which was where did your name come from?
Yeah. Uh, which I love. I love that. It's a lot. Um, because it's such a unique name So you were introduced to me as somebody who makes music with food, uh, and I've only seen a vid- a couple videos of this.
Clockwork Janz: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Um, but [00:04:00] to my left is a garage, and in that garage there is a big red behemoth- Uh-huh ... of a, I'm gonna call it a cart.
Clockwork Janz: It is.
Michael Zarick: Um, and on the side of the cart it says Frankensteamer.
Clockwork Janz: Uh-huh. Frankensteam.
Michael Zarick: Frankensteam.
Clockwork Janz: Frankensteam.
Michael Zarick: Can you tell me what Frankensteam is in your own words?
Clockwork Janz: Sure. Frankensteam is a solar powered, uh, musical hotdog cart.
It is a mobile venue and a, a licensed food distribution machine situation. This isn't even my cat. We're,
Michael Zarick: we're getting attacked by cats.
Clockwork Janz: The neighbors also have four cats. We have eight cats among these two houses- ... and two toddlers. It's wonderful. Frankensteam was a, an idea that came about, man, 20...
The end of 2023, fall [00:05:00] 2023, uh, I was milling around the, uh, Simon Foundation's Creative Risk Grant, and I was thinking, "Oh, pe- people are gonna send in things like, 'I'm an acrylic painter, and it's a big risk to do oil painting.'" And that is the scope of risk for some folks. And I thought, "Well, you have to, like, light yourself on fire to really be risky."
And from there, I, I hobbled back that, well, I've cut off lots of skin doing food work and lots of burns, so, like, food work does, uh, equate to risky. And that matched with an idea that I've been milling around, uh, since the 10th grade, which is that heat and sound are both byproducts of mechanical inefficiency And that is incredible.
That is incredible. That's fire. So much beauty and art are created from extra, [00:06:00] from mistakes, from imperfection.
Michael Zarick: Yeah.
Clockwork Janz: And so Frank, we just call him Frank. Frank. Frank uses he/him pronouns. Frank was born out of this idea, and the thing that best catches that, the... Another thing that catches this, this heat and musical inefficiency, sound inefficiency, is the calliope, which is an old steam wagon that would be on, uh, boats, sorry.
From a steam engine, they had calliopes on board, uh, steamboats and, uh, engines, steam trains. And what this would do, because all this extra steam would just fly out into nothingness, they put an organ between-
Michael Zarick: That's what the Belle of Louisville uses, right?
Clockwork Janz: That makes sense.
Michael Zarick: Okay. Is that the boat? I think, I think, I think, yeah- Yeah
the Belle of Louisville- Yeah ... is, like, the, the steamboat. Uh, it's got a paddle.
Clockwork Janz: That's right.
Michael Zarick: Uh, and they-
Clockwork Janz: And if it's plays music-
Michael Zarick: Yeah ...
Clockwork Janz: that's a calliope.
Michael Zarick: Wow.
Clockwork Janz: So it shoots steam through pipes, and some of them are automated, kinda like, um, a [00:07:00] player piano situation-
Michael Zarick: Uh-huh ...
Clockwork Janz: with a roll. But shooting steam through different color, uh, different, different lengths of pipes creates different pitches.
Michael Zarick: Uh-huh.
Clockwork Janz: There's a lot of them that have keyboards and organs. And so taking this idea, I was like... And I'd already been performing on stage at that point for two years, making music, uh, with food. So while I cook, uh, I clang things and loop it, and then make percussion tracks with slicing and dicing and mixing and tossing and lids here and there.
And I've bought bowls and pans, depending on how they sounded, for years. And so this all just kinda came together with a stage act. And so then this idea of putting this into a, a mobile go-wherever situation, and we tried the calliope with it actually being steam-powered. Like, imagine hooking a hose up to-
Michael Zarick: I am picturing it.
It sounds wild.
Clockwork Janz: Above the, uh, to capture the heat and the steam, but, uh, we did a lot of research. [00:08:00] Rob Funkhouser and I, excuse me, Rob Funkhouser- What a great name, by the way ... a dear friend, uh, he's wonderful. You should hit him up, too. Uh, brilliant musician. His music brings tears to my eyes. Brilliant composer, musician.
And, uh, I hit him up 'cause we'd been, uh, collaborating on sound suppers before that, which is a whole different thing that mixes food and music. to write a proposal for this grant to make a calliope that is also a hotdog cart. The calliope as a steam thing ended up being, uh, very dangerous. We would have burnt the shit out of ourselves at this point.
We would've just scalded ourselves, and we talked to steam experts- Be- is that a space
Michael Zarick: issue?
Clockwork Janz: No, it's the fact that steam is such a high pressure- Uh-huh ... like, to have a... Think of a pressure cooker that hooks up to some kind of organ thing.
Michael Zarick: Yeah.
Clockwork Janz: To get that, to keep that in a safe maintenance situation- Mm
would've taken a lot of time.
Michael Zarick: Mm. [00:09:00]
Clockwork Janz: Uh, imagine just, like, tightening every single bolt, and lubing everything, and making sure everything worked every single time. Even so, the steam that come out of that would've been so hot, the pipes would've been so hot, we were very likely to have just maimed ourselves-
Michael Zarick: Yeah
Clockwork Janz: with this- I love that for you So, so we decided to go with solar power instead. Okay. Which is in the same vein of we're capturing something that is otherwise being unutilized.
Michael Zarick: And heat.
Clockwork Janz: And we're still... Exactly right. Exactly right. So yeah. So Frank, as it stands right now, is a mobile, uh, music and food machine.
We serve hotdogs. There's a pots and pans rack above my head connected to, um, it's a MIDI controller that's connected to a Mac Mini onboard. The condiment station out front is, uh, also a MIDI controller, so it's all powered through more modern technology, but solar powered, so with the same idea that we're capturing otherwise- Mm-hmm
unused energy.
Michael Zarick: And then, uh, [00:10:00] there's also the condiment station- Yeah ... which plays in also. Like, how does that- Yeah ...
Clockwork Janz: work? So the condiment station out front is a MIDI controller.
Michael Zarick: Uh-huh.
Clockwork Janz: Meaning we can hook up whatever sounds we want. If you grab a ketchup packet out of the ketchup packet container, it'll sing back to you whatever songs we program in to the, to the Mac Mini, the computer.
Mm. It's, um...
Michael Zarick: Yeah. So, uh, I mentioned at the very beginning that you made me a very delicious breakfast burrito .
Clockwork Janz: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Uh, and you also made me espresso, which is both so kind and I think maybe the most generous, uh, guest I've had so far. Mm. Um- How did you get interested in food? 'Cause you said you've been cooking for a long time.
You used to work for, um, people, uh, who you said underserved youth or people in the sort of-
Clockwork Janz: I worked for a- ... uh,
Michael Zarick: court system?
Clockwork Janz: That's right. I worked for a nonprofit that, uh, uh, it's called Aftercare for Youth Through Mentoring. It's, uh, defunct now. Mm-hmm. But, um, we w- worked with young [00:11:00] folks that were, uh, on probation, uh, uh, often folks that were returning to society, to their communities from the, uh, juvenile department of corrections.
So they had been in Pendleton Juvenile, Logansport Juvenile, Camp Summit Juvenile- Mm-hmm ... for six months to three years-
Michael Zarick: Yeah ...
Clockwork Janz: as a kid, which is really messed up. Um, and so we built relationships while they were in there, and then when they got out, we had a restaurant for them to come and learn how to cook.
Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Was that the start of your food journey, or was that sort of the-
Clockwork Janz: Uh, I-- Yeah. Professionally, um, but I got-- I started that job as a, as a work study kid in college. Mm. So, like, that was-- I just did that youth mentoring stuff. Uh, so professionally, that was the first. And I co-taught with that nonprofit and sort of apprenticed under a chef at Ivy Tech for a little while, where, again, pulled those kids in and, and, uh, got them a couple credits in culinary at Ivy Tech.
I started cooking growing up. [00:12:00] My grandma taught me how to cook.
Michael Zarick: Oh, yeah.
Clockwork Janz: Yeah. I cooked-
Michael Zarick: Where are you from?
Clockwork Janz: Fort Wayne.
Michael Zarick: Fort Wayne. Uh- Grew up in Fort
Clockwork Janz: Wayne.
Michael Zarick: Gross. Just kidding.
Clockwork Janz: It's fine.
Michael Zarick: I call it the ancestral home.
Clockwork Janz: Oh, why do you call it the ancestral home?
Michael Zarick: My, uh, fam- my father's side grandmother, uh, that's like her family's place of rest, I guess is the- Oh, okay.
Uh, yeah, yeah. The... Shout out to the Bonahoom. Um- Bonahoom. Okay. It's, uh, the Lebanese family, so it's like I'm like- Cool ... third generation. Uh- Oh, right on ... so yeah. Uh, yeah, Fort Wayne, shout out.
Clockwork Janz: Yeah. It's okay. It's, um... No, like I, I, uh, came to Butler, uh, after, like on an oboe playing scholarship. Came to Butler after high school.
Uh, I haven't stayed in Fort Wayne for more than a week- Since ... since then. Yeah. And, um, I've come to... You know, it was the place I grew up. It was fine. It was kinda boring. It's a lot of suburbs. But then, I don't know, uh, they've done a lot. Seeing... Going back as an arts administrator and an [00:13:00] artist, like seeing that they've done a lot within creative economy work, within place making, place keeping.
Yeah. Place keeping.
Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm. '
Clockwork Janz: Cause not a lot has closed down since I was a kid.
Michael Zarick: Hmm, that's impressive.
Clockwork Janz: Which is impressive.
Michael Zarick: You can't say the same thing here, I don't think.
Clockwork Janz: No, that's what I'm saying. Yeah. And seeing that contrast, that actually Fort Wayne's doing an all right job. It's a medium sized, medium-small sized city.
Michael Zarick: Yeah. They've been growing a little bit too.
Clockwork Janz: But they've been growing. Yeah. Uh, a lot of their artwork, their public artwork downtown is, is very accessible. Thinking about like even braille for signage on how to... Yeah, it's like a touchable mural public art, like with that intention.
Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.
Clockwork Janz: It's all right.
Michael Zarick: Yeah.
Clockwork Janz: It's all right.
Michael Zarick: So what types of things- We're off track
Clockwork Janz: though ...
Michael Zarick: were you... No, no. This is... There is no off track. I don't know that I laid tracks at all.
Clockwork Janz: Right on.
Michael Zarick: Um, what types of things were you cooking with your grandma? Do you have any good memories?
Clockwork Janz: Yeah. Uh- I remember cooking eggs and [00:14:00] tomatoes most every morning.
Michael Zarick: Oh, wow.
Clockwork Janz: Eggs, and she loved sliced tomatoes and eggs, and she would always make a point of making sure we had a good protein-filled breakfast that stuck to our ribs. Uh-
Michael Zarick: Make sure you eat your sausage gravy.
Clockwork Janz: No joke. Yeah, no, no, no. Yeah, so we wouldn't get... Yeah, uh, Grandma raised, uh, 10 kids out in the, uh, country, Leo, around Fort Wayne.
Okay. So like on the- Yeah ... outskirts in the country. And, uh, it's funny seeing, um, you know, sort of the, the narrative of a lot of grandparents is, like, spoiling a kid and giving them candy, and that's just... I was thinking about it the other day, that is not what my grandma did. I got bananas as a snack. Hey. I got...
You know what I mean? I don't know.
Michael Zarick: I like a banana.
Clockwork Janz: On the other side of that, my, my grandpa, uh, is still around. He's, uh, 97.
Michael Zarick: Right on.
Clockwork Janz: And eats a bowl of ice cream every single night forever.
Michael Zarick: Hey, that's why he's 97.
Clockwork Janz: Right? I [00:15:00] think it is. That's how I feel. I think it is. I think it is. I think it is. I, we f- uh, fried a lot of chicken growing up.
That was every Christmas. Oh, legit. Yeah. Yeah. Me and Grandma, um-
Michael Zarick: Well, I have a question. So you said- Yeah ... you grew up in the rural town. Was she slaughtering the chicken? Or was that-
Clockwork Janz: She grew up doing that.
Michael Zarick: That's-
Clockwork Janz: But she would, she did not, by
Michael Zarick: the time- I had a high school teacher talk about, like, killing chicken.
I was like, "I don't wanna do that." .
Clockwork Janz: No, no. She-- I remember hearing stories about that. She did not have chickens. She had a big garden. yeah. Her grandparents raised chickens, but it was, you know, kinda sign of the times, right? Post-World War II, it was like, "Oh, we don't have to do that." Mm-hmm. "We can go to the store."
Yeah. How affluent we are to have meat every night, that whole narrative, and like- Mm-hmm ... so nah. She, she didn't slaughter chickens. She grew up doing that. Yeah. Heard stories, but...
Michael Zarick: So, uh, on the other hand- Mm-hmm ... if we think of, uh, Frankensteam as a marriage of, uh, music and food, like, how does music play into your life?
Like, where did that source for [00:16:00] you?
Clockwork Janz: That's crazy 'cause, um
I mean, I feel like it was also my grandma. Yeah. She, she made sure we had a piano growing up 'cause she wanted a piano. She always wanted to learn piano and, uh, again, growing up in the Depression, g- and a piano's like... Now they're free. You can g- you can have a piano if you have a truck. You can get a free...
You can get 20 free pianos.
Michael Zarick: That's funny.
Clockwork Janz: But they were very expensive, and it was like, again, sort of that post-World War II status symbol stuff. so there's that. It's funny, yeah. Uh, people, people moving up in spite of what they didn't have. So, so Grandma got me piano lessons when I was in third grade, me and my brother.
had a piano at her house and helped us get a piano at our house. And then my mom said, "Well, you're gonna be in band if you wanna be," because I wasn't allowed to be in band because my grandparents knew that people in band just did drugs and had sex, and it's true. Yeah, and you're like- It is empirically true
"That could be me." And Mom said, "You know what? You can, you can navigate that, but you're gonna [00:17:00] have this opportunity," 'cause she was a flautist in high school, and yeah, the ground is sinking. It was so heavy in this place. Like, I'm,
Michael Zarick: I'm falling into the ground.
Clockwork Janz: So that was kind of-- Yeah, band was a place that gave me a huge sense of belonging in, uh, in middle school. I started, uh, as an oboist.
Michael Zarick: Oh, cool.
Clockwork Janz: And I still play the oboe. Again, like I said earlier, uh, oboe scholarship, which I was told in the sixth grade, like, "This will get you a scholarship." And my mom said, "Well, we are working class folks.
We're not gonna get a lot of-- You know, you need to find some stupid human trick to go to college." So I picked up the oboe.
Michael Zarick: Yeah.
Clockwork Janz: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: You seem to have a, uh, an affluent-- Or maybe affluence isn't the word I'm looking for. Uh, you seem to enjoy wind-based instruments, things that... Well, you mentioned heat, but like- Yeah
the way wind moves and, and- Absolutely ... obviously with, like, the sound of food and, and stuff that sort of, um... Is that something you've thought [00:18:00] about?
Clockwork Janz: I haven't. I am, uh, an air sign. I'm an Aquarius.
Michael Zarick: Oh.
Clockwork Janz: So maybe there's something to that. I haven't made that connection. I, uh, I do love playing wind instruments, though.
It's very, uh, self-regulating in a big, deep way. It is- Mm. It is just-- Deep breathing is involved, uh, explicitly with it. You focus on how you take oxygen and it comes out as music. Uh, I picked up the saxophone, tenor saxophone, like A year ago? Yeah. It's been fun. Yeah, love wind
Michael Zarick: instruments. Uh, shout out to Marney, my mother.
I played the saxophone for, let's say, three weeks. Okay. Yeah. And she rented it for, like, three months. She's like, "Can you keep doing this?" And I was like, "No."
Clockwork Janz: It's not for everybody. Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Uh, I wish I'd stuck with it kinda, 'cause, like, to me the saxophone's, like, the sexiest instrument. You just, like, look cool.
I don't know. If you're actually good at it. That's true. Uh, but, uh, yeah. Uh, I appreciate my mother for allowing me the opportunity to try it, but I did not stick with it. yeah. But-
Clockwork Janz: That makes sense.
Michael Zarick: Yeah. [00:19:00]
Clockwork Janz: No, no. That's a lot of... And I'm glad you tried it. Yeah. And that is a lot of people's journey with- It was like- Yeah
Michael Zarick: like, fifth grade or something, you know?
Clockwork Janz: Totally. Yeah. Totally, totally. Uh, can I draw a connection that from what you said, not necessarily wind, but the food and music connection is all about- Uh, oral fixation. Oh, okay. Does that make sense? Yo, okay. All right, Freud. It's the same reason I like talking so much.
And, and I've smoked, like, cigarettes here and there. Like, it is a how to keep your mouth and hands busy, I think-
Michael Zarick: Mm ...
Clockwork Janz: is the connection. I like wind instruments. You put a reed in your mouth, that's something to do.
Michael Zarick: Yeah.
Clockwork Janz: Eating, a lot of talking. Have
Michael Zarick: you ever thought about, uh, thought about starting a podcast?
You mentioned to me your enjoyment of podcasts. Maybe you'll find a, an escape. I don't know.
Clockwork Janz: That makes sense. Yeah. About oral fixations?
Michael Zarick: I don't know. Yeah. No, not about oral... I mean, do what you want, I suppose.
Clockwork Janz: There's a lot of ways to explore that. And again, I have a two-year-old, and we're, like, we're starting to have the conversations around, "All right, [00:20:00] we need to put down the paci at some point."
You just gotta find another thing. Yeah. Like, all humans-
Michael Zarick: Yeah ...
Clockwork Janz: do stuff to occupy their mouths.
Michael Zarick: I will say, uh-
Clockwork Janz: Just gotta find
Michael Zarick: another thing ... I was walk, riding the bus yesterday. Dude next to me, straight digging into his nose. That's- Going in. So, you know, some people never lose their oral fixation. That,
Clockwork Janz: that's what I'm saying.
Yeah. No. You just gotta find a pro-social way to use it. Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Uh, that's so funny. So, uh, you carried your oboe... Well, you said you still play, but- I do ... you carried the oboe into college.
Clockwork Janz: Mm-hmm.
Michael Zarick: What, how has, uh, music manifested? How old are you? So if you don't mind me asking.
Clockwork Janz: I'm, 36 and a third.
Michael Zarick: Okay. So how has, like, music-
Clockwork Janz: I guess that works to dox me, doesn't it?
Yeah,
Michael Zarick: yeah. I just said 36. Uh- So let's say, oh my God, it's the same for me too. So like 15 years ago-
Clockwork Janz: Yeah ...
Michael Zarick: uh, being in college, playing the oboe. But Frankenseamer is only-- Or sorry, Frank and Steam is only three years [00:21:00] old max. Um, what is the interim of music in there that's happening? Is it- Oh my gosh. Yeah.
Clockwork Janz: Yeah, no, so much. 'Cause you
Michael Zarick: mentioned being a pro- So much, so much ... a composer and, and all that.
Clockwork Janz: Yeah. No, I am a composer. Uh, I've been getting grants to fund my, uh, composition career since 2018, which is pretty cool.
Michael Zarick: Yeah.
Clockwork Janz: Uh, I was actually, I was a, little side, I was a juvenile probation officer between current stuff and, uh, the working with young folks in the correctional system situation.
I tried that for, like, a year, and I could not do any good that I wanted to, but I gave it a try working with the same kids. Yeah. I was like: "I'm teaching you how to cook." "Okay, we're closed." "Well, now I'm your probation officer." "Isn't this cool?" It wasn't. It wasn't cool. But I did learn how to write pretty well from writing court reports for a year.
Michael Zarick: Yeah.
Clockwork Janz: Big upside, 'cause I've been pretty successful at getting grants, which is how I got Frank.
Michael Zarick: Yeah.
Clockwork Janz: Um, writing grants to fund, uh, [00:22:00] different works. I made a couple musical cookbooks. Uh, I collected recipes from neighbors down in Garfield Park and made an underscore for each one, so if you cook the dish...
And we printed these and distributed them. Uh, a graphic designer, Andrea Hayden, who's amazing, uh, helped me, and, uh, Lexi Haynes as well, wonderful illustrator who now owns and operates Parkside, uh, was illustrator on that. We made these funky little cookbooks from a grant with the Arts Council, and then we self-funded the second one.
I got a grant from Fishers to do that too. We distributed the same-
Michael Zarick: Yeah ...
Clockwork Janz: parallel situation. Uh, I made an oboe method book right before the pandemic. That didn't really do anything 'cause the pandemic, but that was a fun, yeah- ... composition project. Uh, I improvise on my oboe all the time. Um-
Michael Zarick: You a busker?
Clockwork Janz: I don't just...
Uh, no, I don't just busk.
Michael Zarick: I'm just, I'm-
Clockwork Janz: Yeah, no, good question ... more, more just for
Michael Zarick: fun.
Clockwork Janz: Yeah, good question. I, yeah, I actively play. I've got a band [00:23:00] right now called The Idle Hands.
Michael Zarick: Yeah.
Clockwork Janz: But I've been playing with my, my little brother, who is, um, who's in town. We grew up playing music together. He's a bass player, a trombone player Um, I started doing these, I mentioned earlier with Rob, and I do them, uh, with all sorts of people, uh, Sound Suppers which are a coursed dinner where we intentionally make the food and the music to meld into the same narrative.
So it is a fully immersive- Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Almost
Clockwork Janz: like a wine pairing ... all senses aligned. In a
Michael Zarick: way.
Clockwork Janz: Sorta kinda. Yeah. Except it's originally composed.
Michael Zarick: Yeah.
Clockwork Janz: So it'd be like if we made the wine. But yeah. So I've been doing those since 2022.
Michael Zarick: You-
Clockwork Janz: All sorts of stuff ... have
Michael Zarick: just a a fascinating, um-
Clockwork Janz: Yeah. Got one coming up on, uh, July 21st at Parkside.
Michael Zarick: Yeah. You just have like a fascinating resume of, um... Well, the thing about like the cookbook especially, like sourcing recipes from neighbors-
Clockwork Janz: Yeah ... '
Michael Zarick: cause you said you [00:24:00] used to live in Garfield Park. Where in, uh, I don't know what you would call this. Like what, what is this neighborhood called? Mapleton
Clockwork Janz: Fall Creek.
Michael Zarick: Mapleton Fall Creek. We're in Mapleton Fall Creek now. I guess Fall Creek's like right over the- It
Clockwork Janz: is ...
Michael Zarick: over the ledge
Clockwork Janz: here. It's right. I should do it up here.
Michael Zarick: Um, how have you found, to tie it into the podcast I guess- Yeah ... how have you found community through your activities? Um, do you think you have?
Clockwork Janz: Yeah.
Um, I mean, a lot of my work goes back to that sense of, of hospitality. I mean- Definitely ... food is, uh, crucial to our continuing to exist. Um, kinda back to what my, you know, I said my grandma really inculcated me with, with all my f- food ways, a lot of them at least, most of them. And she would like feed the plumber when he came.
You know what I mean? Like everybody. She'd always have extra. She had 10 kids. She, she was one of one kid growing up, and so she [00:25:00] had 10 and she said, "Well, I always wanted family, and so everybody is family now." And so feeding people is that way to make sure... And, and with Frank, if you see me out, you will get a hot dog.
We have a take a dog, leave a dog policy. So we will not turn anybody away. You can get a free hot dog if you say, "I don't really have five bucks today." And if you have five extra dollars, you can give that so that the next person can get a hot dog.
Michael Zarick: Yeah.
Clockwork Janz: But, um, I make community through feeding people, man.
Yeah. Uh, the music too. You ever been to- A silent restaurant?
Michael Zarick: No. I'm too much of a yapper to go to a silent restaurant, but I wanna hear about this.
Clockwork Janz: Well, I was at a silent once. I recall distinctly and I was like, "I don't feel comfortable talking in here."
Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.
Clockwork Janz: Because it's not loud enough. I don't wanna be the only person talking in this restaurant.
So music often sets that tone and helps people be okay with [00:26:00] sharing sonic space, not feeling so alone.
Michael Zarick: Yeah. Definit- I, I, I think about, like, the dynamic between going to a more upscale restaurant and the music they employ or, like, a Texas Roadhouse- Mm-hmm ... which is, like, rather loud and it's meant to make you feel a little more hastened.
Um-
Clockwork Janz: Mm-hmm.
Michael Zarick: So what is a silent restaurant like?
Clockwork Janz: People aren't talking often.
Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.
Clockwork Janz: The music kind of gives people permission. Even just very, very light music helps people stay engaged. A silent restaurant, the, the very few that I've been to seem like something's just kind of off.
Michael Zarick: Mm.
Clockwork Janz: Um, and, and let me-
Michael Zarick: Wait, I just need to interrupt. So silent restaurant doesn't mean, uh, it's not a genre of restaurant, it's just a restaurant that is silent?
Clockwork Janz: Let me, let me clarify a little bit. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I've been to restaurants where there is not, there's not music and nobody else is talking.
Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm [00:27:00]
Clockwork Janz: And it does. It feels awkward.
Michael Zarick: Yeah.
Clockwork Janz: It feels odd. That is a space that we expect to be a little noisy, which gives us license to also be a little noisy and joyful, right?
Music, just like in movies, music music tells us what to feel so we can feel it, so we can tell people how we feel, which is how all art is.
Michael Zarick: Yeah.
Clockwork Janz: Right? Which is why marketing is even a piece of art. Mm-hmm. We wanna know what we're gonna like so that we can like it, so that we can share with people that social capital piece.
We can share with people about how we liked it. So that's what music does. It helps us tell ourselves and one another how to feel so that we can feel it.
Michael Zarick: Yeah. Well, I went to, um, Bike Party on Friday.
Clockwork Janz: Okay.
Michael Zarick: Are you familiar?
Clockwork Janz: Nope.
Michael Zarick: Oh, very large. There was probably... There was between like 800 and 1,000 people [00:28:00] on bikes.
Mm-hmm. Uh, and they ride throughout the city. Uh, and they do a couple of stops, and at the second stop they have a DJ.
Clockwork Janz: Oh, that's cool.
Michael Zarick: Um, at least for the summer. Um, and
When you talk about-- When I think about what you said just now, which is that this idea that music tells you what to feel and, like, how a DJ's job is to re- quote-unquote, "read the room"-
Clockwork Janz: Yeah ...
Michael Zarick: uh, and set the tone- Absolutely ... for moving your body in a certain way.
Clockwork Janz: Yes.
Michael Zarick: Or the way you shared about restaurants and, like, exa- if you're-- I'm gonna keep using Texas Roadhouse as the default restaurant, I guess.
Um- It is a fine establishment. Sorry, my mom has worked for Texas Roadhouse for, like, 15 years. Um-
Clockwork Janz: It's not bad.
Michael Zarick: I've-
Clockwork Janz: Yeah. No shade
Michael Zarick: meant. Yo, shout out Texas Roadhouse.
Clockwork Janz: That's it.
Michael Zarick: Um- It's fine. It is a fine
Clockwork Janz: place to go ... hashtag ad.
Michael Zarick: The way that the music in that space, [00:29:00] um, fills it and makes you feel... It almost adds a level of privacy from other tables.
Clockwork Janz: Absolutely.
Michael Zarick: Yes. Um, so that you can, as you say, feel comfortable having an experience with your- Get a little sonic
Clockwork Janz: curtain up.
Michael Zarick: Yeah.
Clockwork Janz: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Having an experience with your, your immediate neighbors.
Clockwork Janz: Mm-hmm.
Michael Zarick: Um, yeah. That's fascinating. Mm-hmm. Interesting framing.
Clockwork Janz: Mm-hmm.
Michael Zarick: Yeah. So how's that, uh, for you play into what you do?
Clockwork Janz: Yeah. Um
I try to create environments where people can be, uh, present, which is very difficult in a time and space where there is just so much going on all the time, and in our pocket we have access to definitely not all the knowledge the world's ever created. Some of it is intentionally kept from us. And some of it's just been lost, and more and more it is, uh, gated by ads and who wants us to know what.
But much of the world's information [00:30:00] accessible, and many people who ever existed accessible within our pockets. Uh, it's tough to, to call forth presentness. And so a lot of what I've been doing, uh, with food and music, I called it Tuning Forks for a little while. It was... But there's too many brands. So yeah, there's too many, too many names.
So, but a lot of my food and music integrated work is to try to call forth presentness, because what do we do when we eat? We don't often just sit and be present with the food. We scroll or we work- Mm ... or we binge TV. You know what I mean? When's the last time you just ate and really thought about the food and tasted the food and like-
Michael Zarick: Uh, that's a great question.
I feel like anytime I go to... Well, it
Man, that's a, that's a pressing question.
Clockwork Janz: It's a tough one. Not-
Michael Zarick: Well, [00:31:00] I, I think it-- So I've been invited a couple of times to go to Tinker Street on 16th.
Clockwork Janz: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Um, and I feel like both times I've gone there, I've been very intentional about not touching my phone.
Clockwork Janz: That
Michael Zarick: makes sense. And I think it's more of, like, because of the vibe of the space- That makes sense
where I'm gonna go back to Texas Roadhouse. As opposed to Texas Roadhouse- No, no,
Clockwork Janz: no. Totally ... which is, like,
Michael Zarick: so much more casual.
Clockwork Janz: That's
Michael Zarick: right. I really, I really do not eat at Texas Roadhouse. I just-
Clockwork Janz: No shame, man. Uh, t- you know, I've, I've eaten my share of... I don't know how much that is. I haven't been there in a couple years.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But it's fine. Exactly. It's great.
Michael Zarick: Um, which is, again, default. But, like, it's such a, like, a more casual space, uh, that it's like, "Oh, yeah, of course I'm gonna bring my phone out. Of course I'm gonna, like, like, scroll on TikTok and then, like, show a video to your friend," or whatever.
Clockwork Janz: Sure.
Michael Zarick: Um-
Clockwork Janz: And I, uh, you know, and I imagine the price point at Tinker is helpful in that-
in calling you forward, right? Right. There are only so many experiences we can have, and we're sharing resources, trading resources for memories, in a sense- Mm-hmm ... with paying more for food, which is good to do- Mm ... in a lot of circumstances. But [00:32:00] that makes sense, that that calls presentness. Yeah. And so that is what, what I try to do with my integrated food and music work is, uh, give people a reason to not be on their phones, to really stop and, and mindfully eat, listen to their bodies and how this food is making them feel, what the story is behind this food, what the chef intended behind this food, but also what the people who grew the food intended and what the, the lineages and lineages of peoples who curated these recipes and who, you know, biologically crafted these vegetables to be exactly how they are.
Like, what is-- what are all those stories? So by You know, again, kinda like in movies, by making music that underscores and gives little theme songs to your pork chop.
Michael Zarick: Yeah.
Clockwork Janz: Like Yeah ... it helps people be [00:33:00] present. And so in that sense helps people really talk and be grateful and be thankful, and does create that third space wherever.
It-- Frank does that, right? You're like, "Wow, what is this thing?"
Michael Zarick: Yeah.
Clockwork Janz: You know?
Michael Zarick: Oh, I mean -
Clockwork Janz: Yeah ...
Michael Zarick: when I looked you up I was like, "Hell yeah."
Clockwork Janz: We're popping up, we're creating it everywhere.
Michael Zarick: How often do you take, uh-
Clockwork Janz: Anywhere people eat, anywhere people listen.
Michael Zarick: How often do you take Frank out?
Clockwork Janz: Just once in a while.
Just like three or four times a year.
Michael Zarick: Really?
Clockwork Janz: Yep. I, I do a lot. Do
Michael Zarick: you-
Clockwork Janz: I do too
Michael Zarick: much ... is it because you're doing too many other things, or because, um, it's just difficult to get Frank out?
Clockwork Janz: Both, and, and, and when I like, uh, I don't, I don't wanna go out and not, uh, I don't wanna not sell all my hot dogs when I go out.
So some of it is just a very practical-
Michael Zarick: Yeah ...
Clockwork Janz: uh, you know, this is my... A, a great part about food work is that it has, uh, failure integrated into it. And so [00:34:00] I- Mm ... you know, just because a food business does not last forever doesn't mean it was a failure. Many restaurants eventually don't exist anymore, and it doesn't mean they weren't successes in their three to seven to 20 whatever years it...
So this is my fourth food concept. And, um, so I'm getting a little more down to the practicality of it and, 'cause often what helps a food business succeed or not is the economics of it, is the sustainability of the model itself. And, uh, yeah, hot dogs are not expensive.
Michael Zarick: They try not to be, unless you go to like a Dodgers game or something.
Clockwork Janz: Oh, right. Yeah. And we do-- I would love to partner with, if anybody hearing this makes hot dogs in a commercially licensed kitchen. Yeah.
Michael Zarick: I appreciate the addendum there.
Clockwork Janz: That's right. We don't need... Yeah, if, if, uh, Joe whatever is making hot dogs in his backyard, need not apply. But
Michael Zarick: That's so good. Yeah.
Clockwork Janz: Love to get a little bit, but, [00:35:00] but yeah.
Don't wanna price anybody out is, is a big part of this too. We wanna make a space for everybody and anybody to, to get in, have some fun, weird music, some whimsy, and again, just forget about the fact that the, the world is burning down. And it always has been- Yeah ... to some degree.
Michael Zarick: I'm glad, I'm so glad that that storm last night didn't, uh...
It did go somewhere, but it didn't come here, so.
Clockwork Janz: It didn't come here.
Michael Zarick: Um- Third Space Indy is sponsored by City Rising. City Rising is a social impact studio. Most recently, they implemented an eviction data dashboard that looks to highlight and reduce the impact of the 30,000 evictions mostly affecting Black and Latino women and children Indianapolis faces every year.
Learn more at cityrising.org. City Rising has sponsored a question, which is what is a... You're laughing. Uh, the, the pivot?
Clockwork Janz: No, you're good. Oh, I just- I just, like I said, I [00:36:00] haven't gotten to this point in the podcast yet. Oh,
Michael Zarick: that's right. We were
Clockwork Janz: I've listened to like nine
Michael Zarick: episodes.
Clockwork Janz: You're like, "This is so new to me."
We're off the map. I don't know what's coming next.
Michael Zarick: Um... Yeah. City Rising has sponsored a question, which is what is a third space to you? Yeah
Clockwork Janz: Well, uh I have a little context, and I feel the need to acknowledge my, my sponsor, uh, my day job at Arts for Learning Indiana- Shout
Michael Zarick: out
Clockwork Janz: Arts for Learning ... that funds, uh, my rockstar lifestyle.
Michael Zarick: Rockstar in a sense, you know.
Clockwork Janz: Yeah, no, yeah. Yeah. Um, but, um, we, uh, did a, an initiative called Third Space actually back in 2018- Wow ... where we, uh- Dude, ahead
Michael Zarick: of the curve.
Clockwork Janz: It's crazy, right? Yeah. So I've got, uh, yeah, 20- 2018 to 2020. Uh, no, and actually we did a couple in '22 and '23. But they were large installation works, uh, that pop up into school spaces for a short [00:37:00] period of time.
So a museum fill up a whole gymnasium with whatever piece of artwork, and I think that's a great example. Um, a third space is a place that you can just be you and escape whatever normal, whatever your normal is, uh, thinking routines that you find yourself in to get you into new ways of perceiving, new ways of understanding the world around you.
Maybe meet some new friends 'cause you're seeing things differently, right? I don't know if you've ever lost your keys- ... that are in your pocket, but the world is not as straightforward as we might think all the time. Mm. Uh, it is only what we perceive ever, and you're the only person who can perceive your experience, and it only exists because you perceive it.
And so that is what third spaces do, uh, is they help us to perceive different currently valid and currently [00:38:00] happening realities that we just did not understand are currently happening- Yeah ... because we can only see one thing at a time.
Michael Zarick: Definitely. I like that.
Clockwork Janz: Thanks.
Michael Zarick: Great answer. Um, follow-up question to that question.
What is a third space or place that has existed for you previously that no longer does?
Hmm.
I'm concerned. The laugh, the laugh is concerning.
Clockwork Janz: I got a, a-
Michael Zarick: You mentioned oral fixation earlier. It could be anything.
Clockwork Janz: Could be anything. Uh, yeah, no, this does have, of course, always, uh- Oh, man. I got two. I got two.
Michael Zarick: Yeah.
Clockwork Janz: Uh, one is the Sinking Ship. Has that come up on your-
Michael Zarick: No. Oh. Oh, that- Is that the one on College?
Clockwork Janz: Not anymore.
Michael Zarick: Well, then
Clockwork Janz: yeah. That's right. Yeah. Was it like a
Michael Zarick: breakfast spot?
Clockwork Janz: No.
Michael Zarick: What was it, what is it, a bar?
Clockwork Janz: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Okay, okay. It was like- Someone has mentioned that before ... it was
Clockwork Janz: like a great punk bar. It was awesome. It was fun. It was a good place to hang out. And I hear people [00:39:00] reference, "Oh, it's where the Ship used to be," all the time.
So like, still, you know, people of a certain age, aging millennials as- Yeah ... I am as well, uh, the Sinking Ship was an awesome hangout spot. The other one that came-- Can I have two favorites?
Michael Zarick: You can say whatever you
Clockwork Janz: want,
Michael Zarick: honestly.
Clockwork Janz: Um, the other one that came to mind is, uh, House of Chung.
Michael Zarick: House of Chung?
Clockwork Janz: Which, yes, uh, up at, uh, 71st and Keystone was in college my, uh, because I went to, uh, Butler and studied music composition, which is how I got all these funky ideas.
A lot of them. Got me started, got me supported in the right veins. Uh, all the composition professors and students would go up to this Chinese buffet to hang out after recitals- I like that
Michael Zarick: it's specifically- ... sometimes after lessons ... like the music students. It's like the-
Clockwork Janz: The music composition students.
Yeah. Yes, the composition studio would go and, and like close down House of Chung, which was a place that it was like a takeout spot, but then, uh, [00:40:00] Peter Chung was the opener... the, the owner. He would open it up for a buffet for lunches and weekends. And he was just so friendly, and it was just a fun hangout spot.
But good. It's not there. It's like, I think it's like a Mexican restaurant now. Oh. Closed down a couple years ago. It's still a restaurant. Yeah. But, um, that was a fun weird one.
Michael Zarick: Do you have any, um, any special memories of either of these places? Like any standouts?
Clockwork Janz: Yeah. After, uh, after my composition recital, uh, uh, when I was in college, just going up with a bunch of friends and, uh, my composition teachers, hanging out, uh, eating all the Chinese food and closing it down.
It was fun-
Michael Zarick: Oh, like literally closing it down?
Clockwork Janz: Like, yeah, we were there till they kicked us out. Uh, and then smoking cigarettes in the parking lot. I've never
Michael Zarick: s- I've never heard anyone be like, "Yeah, I, I closed out-
Clockwork Janz: It closed down ... the
Michael Zarick: Chinese buffet." No,
Clockwork Janz: like, that's what I'm saying. It was the spot. That's where, that's why they're not here anymore.
We ate them out of business.
Michael Zarick: I wonder- It's such a, um... [00:41:00] Like, you don't hear about buffets as much post-COVID, you know what I mean? Yeah. Obviously it's sort of like, it's sort of a little passe now.
Clockwork Janz: We're like, "Was that thing that we..." Yeah. Again,
Michael Zarick: it's
Clockwork Janz: in
Michael Zarick: the- There's a couple of places around town that do one, um, but it's not like, uh, ubiquitous like it used to be, I think.
No, there's less and less of
Clockwork Janz: them. Yeah. Have you been to The Journey on China- I do-
Michael Zarick: Uh, The Journey- Big- That's like the one near Sam's Club ... weird up there. That's
Clockwork Janz: right. Yeah. Chinese buffet up there. Yeah.
Michael Zarick: If you're
Clockwork Janz: gonna
Michael Zarick: go to one, it's- I don't think I've- It's still around. ... ever have wanted to enter that building in my life.
Clockwork Janz: It's
nautical themed.
There's narrative. It's so funny. Yeah. It's so funny. It's like the journey they t- to get to the US. Also, again- And they collected
Michael Zarick: these
Clockwork Janz: recipes ... this is...
Michael Zarick: I probably shouldn't say this, but there's also nothing more Chinese you could do than shut down the Chinese buffet and then go smoke cigarettes in the parking lot.
That's like- It was-
Clockwork Janz: Yeah ... okay, we were, we were welcome folks. Yeah. It was, it
Michael Zarick: was the- It was- Yeah.
Clockwork Janz: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Be like, uh, there's like Red Sun in the Sky playing in the background or something. Yeah, it's like... Sorry, that was a, that was a deep cut if anyone... I don't know if [00:42:00] anyone even understands that.
Clockwork Janz: I don't
Michael Zarick: know.
Um, yeah, I don't know where to go from here. That's okay. Uh,
Clockwork Janz: that was my third
Michael Zarick: space
Clockwork Janz: memory. Those two, uh... Oh, I don't know. Yeah. Those are good. That's enough.
Michael Zarick: Yeah.
Clockwork Janz: There's others.
Michael Zarick: Um, every episode I ask a question from the previous guest, which you have heard
Clockwork Janz: some of them. Well- I know this is a theme- This is a thing
but I don't know... I should've listened to the last one. I could've studied. Well, this,
Michael Zarick: this wouldn't be out.
Clockwork Janz: It's not out yet.
Michael Zarick: It's not out yet.
Clockwork Janz: Okay.
Michael Zarick: Corinne Hendrix, who runs a local queer and ally skate group. Uh, a skate group? Like skateboarding.
Clockwork Janz: Oh,
Michael Zarick: that's cool.
Clockwork Janz: Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Corinne Hendricks, uh, asks Person, place, and time. Who, uh, where, and when. Who would you hang out with? Where would you hang out with them? And, uh, at what time and place? [00:43:00] It was sort of, it was sort of like a really, uh-
Clockwork Janz: Is it- ... Old Value Health College
I can interpret that context how I want from those words, or?
Michael Zarick: Uh, yeah. She said any, any person, any place, and any time.
Clockwork Janz: Right, right, right, right, right. So any time period in history. Literally. Any-
Michael Zarick: I said, I said my answer was 2017 summer camp with my friends, so
Clockwork Janz: Oh,
Michael Zarick: that's cool. Yeah. It's, like, very, uh... But if you wanna, like, uh, travel back to Frankfurt, Germany and learn about the origin of the hot dog, you could.
Clockwork Janz: Well, those are, uh, I think they're from New York, actually.
Michael Zarick: Yeah, probably. I don't-
Clockwork Janz: But they're- Why do they call it Frankfurt? ... Frank- Frankfurt-style sausages from, uh, immigrants to New York in the, uh, 1890s or something. But, uh, something like that. Yeah. But anyway, uh, I'm a history nerd. Uh, if I could hang out with anybody wherever, whenever, um-
[00:44:00] Uh, what comes to mind first is I would wanna hang out with, uh, John Cage, who is my favorite composer, who is the only tattoo I have is the score to "4'33"", which is a piece of, uh, it's not silence. And I did wanna double back earlier. Silence doesn't exist. There is no silence.
Michael Zarick: Ooh. Yeah. Wait, wait, pause.
Clockwork Janz: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: There's a Japanese, uh, concept- Yeah ... that I learned about, like, within the past few days called ma.
Clockwork Janz: Ma?
Michael Zarick: M-A.
Clockwork Janz: Okay.
Michael Zarick: Uh, it's this concept of intentional silence to make other parts of your life more beautiful.
Clockwork Janz: 100%.
Michael Zarick: So- 100%. The example used in, I think it was a podcast I was listening to. It's funny that you mentioned that.
Clockwork Janz: Uh-huh.
Michael Zarick: Um, they were talking about Seven- the "Seven Samurai" movie. Uh-huh. And they're, like, fighting and, and battling over and over and over, and then the movie, like, effectively stops, and it just shows this period of rainfall and calm before the [00:45:00] final act.
Clockwork Janz: Mm-hmm.
Michael Zarick: And they were saying... And this is a obviously old Japanese film.
Like- Yeah. Yeah ... this is an intentional moment in the film to, one, give you a break from the action, but also make the climax of the movie much more impactful, because if you go from battle to battle to battle to battle to big battle, it doesn't mean anything.
Clockwork Janz: No, of course.
Michael Zarick: So the intentional silence-
Clockwork Janz: Mm ...
Michael Zarick: to create impact outside of that.
Um, anyways, I agree with you.
Clockwork Janz: Totally.
Michael Zarick: Silence doesn't exist.
Clockwork Janz: No, no, no. And John Cage was a big, um, person who brought that concept to the US. In fact, uh, brought, uh, uh, scholars over from Japan to translate, uh, many Buddhist texts and, and was big into, um, Zen in the, I mean, in the '60s, the macrobiotic diet, and also fed, uh, everybody who, uh, made music for him.
He, he wrote music, so into that lineage. Um- It was- And wrote this piece, [00:46:00] uh, "4'33"", which is, uh, composed at random using the I Ching. So he flipped coins to represent yarrow sticks to determine truths already present in nature to say how long each movement should be. Uh, and he did this for a lot of his music by chance operations.
And so this is "4'33"" where the performer does not intentionally make any sounds. It's three movements, uh, originally written for piano, but has been transcribed for orchestra and anything. Again, you sit there and don't make any sound except you close or open the lid of the piano is the only direction so people know when the movements stop and start.
You had a question.
Michael Zarick: So it's silence... Well, I, I, I would-
Clockwork Janz: No, yeah, yeah.
Michael Zarick: You, you brought up another question in the middle, but we'll go back to the other one. Yeah. So it's, it's, it's a- It's four minutes and 33 seconds of silence.
Clockwork Janz: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Including, like, you're not even making sound by opening and closing the door.
You
Clockwork Janz: try not to.
Michael Zarick: You try not to.
Clockwork Janz: Just as quiet as you can be, yeah.
Michael Zarick: Um-
Clockwork Janz: Yeah. [00:47:00] And so people were real pissed when he did it the first time. They're like, "Who is this?" Well,
Michael Zarick: it's like the- "
Clockwork Janz: What
Michael Zarick: is this
Clockwork Janz: bullshit?" They walked out and-
Michael Zarick: Well, it's like the, uh, you know, the red painting or whatever. It-
Clockwork Janz: That's just like a-
Michael Zarick: Yep
shade of red. It's like it just makes
Clockwork Janz: you
Michael Zarick: mad. Exactly. And then because it makes you mad, it's art. That's the art.
Clockwork Janz: That's right. It's a dialogue between you and the person who made it. There is an aesthetic that is, uh, useful outside of its function. It's art.
Michael Zarick: Yeah.
Clockwork Janz: Yeah. So I'd hang out with John Cage. Uh- Oh I guess I'd have to travel back to when he was alive.
He died in, like, '94.
Michael Zarick: Hey, pretend he's alive at any time.
Clockwork Janz: Well, now.
Michael Zarick: Okay.
Clockwork Janz: I like now.
Michael Zarick: Okay. I like now
Clockwork Janz: as often. I like to, I like now. I'm always a... I don't know. I don't look back on parts of my life with, oh, college is the nostalgia. Nah, now is the best.
Michael Zarick: Yeah. '
Clockwork Janz: Cause now is what we have, and it's now.
Michael Zarick: Oh.
Clockwork Janz: And there's so much good stuff, and if you don't like now, then f*ckin change something.
But John Cage now at my favorite spot [00:48:00] in town-
Michael Zarick: The Anchor. Not, that's not what you said. Anchor. The Sinking Ship.
Clockwork Janz: No, no, no, no. The ship was, the ship was cool.
Michael Zarick: The Anchor's something
Clockwork Janz: else. No. But I would wanna go to the Watson Road Bird Preserve. Do you know the Watson Road Bird Preserve? No. You
Michael Zarick: see, this is excellent
Clockwork Janz: for me.
Go and check this out. It is a- Is that
Michael Zarick: on Watson Road?
Clockwork Janz: It's on Watson Road, which is right around the corner. You can, uh-
Michael Zarick: You think I can walk there?
Clockwork Janz: From here? Yeah, you can.
Michael Zarick: Oh. You can. The way you said that,
Clockwork Janz: it- It's like, uh, it's not, I guess, right around the corner. It's ch- ch- ch- ch- ch- so it's College, Watson Road's on the other side of College.
It's a diagonal street that goes up between 34th and 38th, essentially. And the Watson Road Bird Preserve's at, like, 36th, 36 and Guilford. Yeah. So it's what, like, four blocks over and six blocks up, and you'd be right on the red line when you stop- Oh, okay ... if you bust here, so totally can. Yeah. It's, like, probably a half-hour walk.
It's not far.
Michael Zarick: Okay.
Clockwork Janz: There's, yeah, even a trail you can take mostly there.
Michael Zarick: So John Cage-
Clockwork Janz: At the Watson Road Bird Preserve ...
Michael Zarick: Watson Road Bird Preserve.
Clockwork Janz: Ah.
Michael Zarick: In the year 2026.
Clockwork Janz: This afternoon. What do you think of my meetings? Yeah. I'm [00:49:00] just going to go with John Cage. That's what I wanna do.
Michael Zarick: What do you think he'd talk about?
Clockwork Janz: Oh my gosh. So the Watson Road Bird Preserve is this little spot. It's owned by the Parks Department. Uh, it was the first bird preserve in the city. In the '20s I think, the neighborhood developing around it- Oh ... said, "Hey, we don't wanna develop a house on this big plot. We should save it for birds to come and hang out, and make sure that there's enough birds for our environment ecosystem, which we need."
And so it's, uh, managed and stewarded by Indy Parks, but it's just a big triangle of land on a, on a, like a hill that is just for birds. And it... Like, the fact that we hear so many birds here is because we're close enough, like within a mile of the Watson Road Bird Preserve, so many fucking birds. It's great.
It's great. I love bird sounds. They, uh, yeah, they help keep the mosquitoes down a little bit. We still need some more bats-
Michael Zarick: Yeah ...
Clockwork Janz: to eat some more mosquitoes, but- I see bats out. No, we got some bats.
Michael Zarick: All right. A few
Clockwork Janz: more bats. Do you
Michael Zarick: like birds?
Clockwork Janz: I like [00:50:00] birds. I like natural music and sound that happens, and the fact that this place just exists.
So John Cage would hang out. We would sit and listen, and just listen. We would probably just mostly be silent.
Michael Zarick: Would you hold hands?
Clockwork Janz: We might hold hands. Yeah. We might hold hands. Okay.
Michael Zarick: I'm just wondering.
Clockwork Janz: He seemed like a very, uh, soft and supportive man from what I can tell. Yeah. John Cage
Michael Zarick: is awesome. Um, the question I had earlier was, what is...
Is John Cage most known for "4'33"" or is he most known for other things?
Clockwork Janz: That is the piece he is most known for. Okay. That was the thing that kinda... It's a good intro to his work, and again, it's kinda become infamous for people are like, "Oh, that's not music. He's not a real composer, real artist." And- I do
Michael Zarick: think it's funny to be like, "This is a good intro to his work," and it's just- It's nothing
silence.
Clockwork Janz: It's nothing. Yeah, yeah.
Michael Zarick: He's very- Like, man, he's so talented.
Clockwork Janz: I mean, I don't know if you're big into a very divisive character, Yoko Ono-
Michael Zarick: Okay,
Clockwork Janz: I do, yeah ... uh, who was also a fantastic composer. I just got rid of, uh, done with her biography. She was a student of his. A lot of current, [00:51:00] uh, I mean, a lot of current music contemporary composition is like from John Cage, big into, yeah, just like any sort of...
And not just, but conceptual art.
Michael Zarick: Yeah.
Clockwork Janz: John Cage. Uh, he did a lot of composing music by random. So if you hear... So yeah, look him up on YouTube and you'll hear just like what sounds like, and it is- Yeah ... just clanging on piano. He prepared piano a lot. So like he would stick whatever random shit into a piano, nails and screws and clamps, to emulate the sound of a gamelan, uh, the Indonesian orchestra.
It's timbre.
Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.
Clockwork Janz: So there's less pitch and more just like what different clangs and sounds- Yeah ... and color come out, so- Interesting ... he, he's known for all
Michael Zarick: those things. I will look
Clockwork Janz: into this. John Cage is amazing.
Michael Zarick: Uh, two last questions.
Clockwork Janz: Please.
Michael Zarick: First What's on your heart? Is there anything else you've been thinking about that you wanna share?
Clockwork Janz: I definitely did wanna mention the Watson Road Bird [00:52:00] Preserve, which
Michael Zarick: I did- We got that in ... just recently. We got that in.
Clockwork Janz: Uncomplicated love for the Watson Road Bird Preserve. What's on my heart?
I think everyone just needs to be more kind, you know? Yeah. It feels like we're in a particularly, uh, mean period in, in history right now. Uh, and that is supported by... I mean, again, our, our government has always been a totalitarian regime. We're not the good guys in history in the US. A lot of us are good people, and we can act like it.
Yeah. We can be kinder and gentler and more supportive to one another, even if we are living in a time where we feel like [00:53:00] we need to be mean to protect ourselves or to keep ourselves from feeling tricked or I don't know. But I know it's, it... A lot of people are afraid right now, and there's a lot to be afraid about But I think we need to just kinda double down on being humans and being kind and giving people the benefit of the doubt and Shoot.
Taking care of ourselves a little more in a, in a piece of that so that we can take care of others a little more. Yeah. I think we need to be kinder and more gracious to everybody. Definitely. Including ourselves.
Michael Zarick: Oh, including ourselves. Including ourselves. Yeah,
me especially.
Uh-
Clockwork Janz: Right? You big dummy. You need to be kinder to yourself.
I'm sorry, I'm just- Uh- That's me talking to myself
Michael Zarick: all the time. One of, one of my goals for the year, this is, uh... It's a running joke. One of my goals for the year is to be kinder to the people I like the most. Uh, because I, I feel like the more I like someone, the more comfortable I [00:54:00] am just, like, dissing on them a little bit, you know?
That makes sense. And it's like, how do you, like, continue to be kind to people? I guess. I appreciate the answer.
Clockwork Janz: It's real, it's real vulnerable to admit you like something.
Michael Zarick: Yeah.
Clockwork Janz: So it's easier to, like-
Michael Zarick: Yeah, yeah. "
Clockwork Janz: Eh, I don't like this that much. You can't hurt me."
Michael Zarick: Yeah. Uh, last question: What question would you like to ask the next Third Space Indy guest?
Clockwork Janz: Oh, man. And I knew this was coming, and I don't have one.
Michael Zarick: You listened to between seven and 10 episodes. Somewhere
Clockwork Janz: in there. I haven't heard Ruba. I need to go back and listen to Ruba. She's great. Uh-
Michael Zarick: Can be about anything you want. Every time you laugh, I just see mischief in your eyes.
Clockwork Janz: It's true. It's true. I am, um I'm very silly about being serious. I'm very, uh, it's all work, but I, um, but that's a tangent
I got one. What are you in a rush for? [00:55:00]
Michael Zarick: What are you in a rush for?
Clockwork Janz: Yeah. Why you running around? Why you hurrying?
Michael Zarick: This is a common- No, no, no. I'm, I'm serious. This is a common, um, thing I think about, which is, like, when, when you talk about artificial intelligence and the way it's manifested currently-
Clockwork Janz: Yeah ...
Michael Zarick: uh, I actually mentioned, like, in a short video I did this week, I talk about the concept of, like, time is money.
Like, people are obsessed with, like, always being efficient and rushing to achieve something.
Clockwork Janz: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: But it's like, why? Like, what are you- That's right ... making your life more efficient for? Like, what is the end goal? And I think most people don't have a good answer.
Clockwork Janz: They don't We're just kind of in reactionary mode.
Yeah. We're just in perpetual fight or flight.
Michael Zarick: Yeah.
Clockwork Janz: It's messed up.
Michael Zarick: So the answer is I have stopped caring about rushing. Good job. To my wife's chagrin. Good job. Um, but yeah, I, [00:56:00] I don't personally feel rushed unless I have to be like Clockwork
Clockwork Janz: and,
Michael Zarick: and be somewhere.
Clockwork Janz: I am pretty-- I overpack myself.
Michael Zarick: Yeah.
Clockwork Janz: There's a lot to do. There's a lot to experience.
Michael Zarick: Um, so what are you in a rush for? That is the question for the next guest.
Clockwork Janz: What you hurrying around?
Michael Zarick: Clockwork Janz, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. For, uh, if you want to be found-
Clockwork Janz: Yeah ...
Michael Zarick: where can the people find you, including y- your upcoming events?
Clockwork Janz: Yeah. So, uh, I'm only on social media on Thursdays now- Yeah ... which is a wonderful little... Yeah, I found myself, uh, y- doing the thing I think a lot of us do, which is, like, habitually opening up the app to get a little dopamine bump, and, uh, I've got some, uh, history of addiction in my familial lineage, so I'm like, "You know what?
I'm gonna, I'm gonna slow down. I'm gonna push back." So-
Michael Zarick: Can I, wait- Maybe- ... interject real quick? Please. One, uh, another last question.
Clockwork Janz: Yeah, yeah,
Michael Zarick: yeah. Uh, have you replaced that with anything? Have you started reading or...?
Clockwork Janz: Nothing I can share [00:57:00] on the podcast. Okay.
Michael Zarick: The oral fixation returns.
Clockwork Janz: No, no, no. That's it. Have I replaced it with anything?
I'm trying to... Well, no, I've got enough other things. I already had a thing in the queue. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. No. It's fine. I mean, I'm reading. Again, that was like a habitual, like... Yeah, I wasn't, I wasn't sharing as much. You know, I don't know.
Michael Zarick: It's almost like a tic more than anything else.
Clockwork Janz: I think it was more of like-- And worrying about what other people w- it became like worrying about what other people are thinking and what's...
And, and trying to be hypervigilant. We can't... I don't know. I've heard people talking about this UFC thing that happened at the White House all week, and I'm so glad I'm not on social media because that, that distraction, that cruelty is the point at this point. It's to just overload people. And so I'm-- To my own question about what am I rushing for, I'm, I am working to unlearn...
I was one of the last people I knew to get a cell phone, and I don't, I don't think, um, it's ultimately the best thing.
Michael Zarick: Yeah.
Clockwork Janz: So I've replaced it with slowing down a little bit, and I already had enough [00:58:00] things going on, and I still have my email on my phone. I have plenty of other things to- You're,
Michael Zarick: you're very responsible on the phone, that's-
Clockwork Janz: Uh, thank you.
Um. Um.
Michael Zarick: All right. So where can we find you? Shoot. Sorry, I, I-
Clockwork Janz: Yeah, no. Yeah, you're good. You're good. It's great talking to you. Of course. Yeah. Um, yeah. So, uh, Clockwork makes music on Instagram. Again, I'll check-- I'll see it eventually. And, uh, I'm, I'm not not on it. I'm just slower to respond on that. Uh, I'm not gonna give my phone number Yes.
Michael Zarick: Some people have actually-
Clockwork Janz: That makes sense ... which is
Michael Zarick: pretty funny.
Clockwork Janz: It's probably findable. My resume's out there, so like, you know, I guess- Like if you wanted to find my phone number- ... spam calls are-- Right, right. Everything's findable. Uh, similar Facebook, Clockwork Jams, clockworkmakesmusic, uh, @gmail.com. You can, uh, find me at most public events that Arts for Learning Indiana puts on.
Uh, we didn't go down that, but there's a whole bunch more that could be said about that wonderful organization that's been around for 65 years. Um, you can see me at upcoming events. [00:59:00] Uh, some day job stuff, some personal practice stuff this Saturday. Nope, it'll, uh- It will be past ... never mind. Last Saturday.
Nope, never mind. I don't have any-- There's two events coming up. Personal practice stuff. Uh, tomorrow. If it comes out on Monday the 29th.
Michael Zarick: Yeah.
Clockwork Janz: June 30th. Tomorrow is one of the few times that I'm bringing Frank out to the public.
Michael Zarick: Yo.
Clockwork Janz: It'll be over at Eagle Creek Beach. Frank and Steam on the Beach for my- Wait
uh, Philip Glass fans. That's what we're calling the event. I will be there. Please. Please, please, please. Or I will attempt to be
Michael Zarick: there.
Clockwork Janz: Please attempt to be there. Eagle Creek, uh, uh, uh, my, uh, partner Lydia runs the, uh, free concert series for the parks department, and, uh, we're gonna p-pop up, uh, uh, the free Elmer Ambasso concert.
My dear friend Isaac Salazar's Nicaraguan marimba ensemble's playing on the beach, and I'm gonna sell hot dogs in the parking lot with Frank, open it up for him, probably play a little at intermission. [01:00:00] Uh, and then after that, you can buy tickets to our next Sound Supper at Parkside.
Michael Zarick: Yo.
Clockwork Janz: Uh, tickets are $85, but that pays for a five-course dinner and live music, which is pretty good.
Michael Zarick: That's a, that's a deal actually.
Clockwork Janz: It's not bad. By like local chef, uh, Hunter Haynes, like I said. Uh, Hunter and Lexi own and operate Parkside, wonderful queer, trans-owned space that is also just some of the best food in town. For
Michael Zarick: real.
Clockwork Janz: I was there the other day, and like, it's just like if you're looking for-- We're talking about the middle, middle ground between Texas Roadhouse and-
and Tinker Street, to pull this back full circle, maybe is exactly Parkside. It is comfortable Boy,
Michael Zarick: that is so true
Clockwork Janz: No, it is maybe the middle. That's so funny It is perfect. No, it is a perfect spot. It feels like it's fancy. It is a little bit upscale. It's like a special fun occasion. But
Michael Zarick: you can get a patty melt or like a fancy dinner.
Clockwork Janz: That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying.
Michael Zarick: You're a genius.
Clockwork Janz: It's perfect. It's right in the [01:01:00] middle. That's why we do the sound supper there. It's like, it's great. It is medium upscale. Perfect. Perfect. So fun. That is an amazing th- if you haven't talked to Lexi yet, can I give a recommendation? Is that, is that a part of this?
Michael Zarick: You can do whatever you want.
Clockwork Janz: Reach out to Lexi Haynes. Say whatever you want. That is a great space. That is a great Third Space. Before that, uh, she operated the, a, a Garfield Park brewery, which is now defunct, but she was the reason that was so successful. That was the neighborhood hangout. That darn near kept me in Garfield Park for like just the community was created around that.
Lexi is the person.
Michael Zarick: Lexi is
Clockwork Janz: the girl. Amazing. She's amazing.
Michael Zarick: Hey. Thank you so much for watching or listening to this episode of Third Space Indy. You can find me by going to Third Space Indy on Instagram or by going to thirdspaceindy.com where I write a weekly blog that I release with the show notes, even though I'm behind like 15 episodes.
It's okay. I'll get there eventually. Thanks so much to City Rising, and thanks so much to Proformus. [01:02:00] Proformus is an urban planning and design firm that helps neighbors and communities shape the places they already love. Based in Indianapolis, they're here to help make your place happen one block at a time.
And thank you as always to the local artist Jennasen for allowing me to use your song "Scared Rabbit" as the intro song. Thank you once again for listening. See you in the next one. Goodbye.
Clockwork Janz: Well, now.
Michael Zarick: Okay.
Clockwork Janz: I like now.
Michael Zarick: Okay. I like now
Clockwork Janz: as often. I like to, I like now. I'm always a... I don't know. I don't look back on parts of my life with, oh, college is the nostalgia. Nah, now is the best.
Michael Zarick: Yeah. '
Clockwork Janz: Cause now is what we have, and it's now.
Michael Zarick: Oh.
Clockwork Janz: And there's so much good stuff, and if you don't like now, then f*ckin' change something.
[01:03:00]
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