Ep.3 - Khaled Khlifi
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Some of my fondest memories involve going to the movies.
I remember seeing Revenge of the Sith with my mother and her falling asleep in the opening scene — a loud and exciting space battle. I remember goxing to see all sorts of things with my friends in high school and then going to Steak & Shake after. I remember seeing Boyhood at the IU student union as a freshman and nearly crying because it resonated so deeply with me. My two roommates in college were also deeply involved in student filmmaking.
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Story Time
Episode Summary
Episode Transcript
There is something so alluring about the cinema. The time spent absorbing the art, the smell of popcorn, the sound of crinkly candy bags, and the inevitable discussion during the dinner or drinks that follow. All of these simple things feel like a lost art in an age of streaming services.
So when I moved to Indianapolis and drove past the Kan-Kan for the first time, I knew instantly it was somewhere I wanted to be…
Important Links and Mentions
Production learnings from the episode
The Kan-Kan is such a great space. And each of the theaters is well sound proofed and decently lit when the lights are on. In retrospect, I should’ve asked Khaled if we could have just recorded in one of the theaters.
Instead we recorded in what amounts to basically a broom closet, which was cozy and decently lit, but there was a bit of a hum from the A/C and I think the angle of the video is a bit awkward. That’s ok, I’ll probably be back eventually and we’ll rock it then.
Secondly, a major mistake was made. I was using a recording program that required an internet connection to save the recording. As a result, only half of “the good” audio was saved, so about halfway through the episode, I swapped audio sources from the main microphone to my phone in the edit. The swap is obvious to me, but I have done a decent amount of work to hide it. Basically, the lesson here is just to record offline and then use that audio elsewhere. This has been going well so far.
A cosmic linkage
I’m spoiling the episode a bit here, but the name Kan-Kan comes from the local Indianapolis author’s book, Cat’s Cradle. A Kan-Kan is a tool used in the book’s fictional religion as a way of finding a deep cosmic linkage between two people or groups of people. This linkage is called a karass in the book.
The reason I’m bringing this up is that I immediately felt such a connection forming as I sat down with Khaled.
It’s a difficult thing to explain, but through our chat, I felt a comfort like I had known him for quite a while. He became an old friend in an instant. Our beliefs are similar, our backgrounds are loosely aligned, and generally, it felt correct to be chatting. I imagine this ephemeral cosmic linkage may only be active in person because I found, while editing the podcast, that something felt lost to me personally — I’m sure it will return when we meet again. But even without you being a part of our karass, it was a great conversation, I hope you’ll enjoy listening.
I’m gonna meet that person
To back up a bit, I remember immediately the feeling I got when driving by the Kan-Kan. I was with my wife, driving to meet Jesse Brown for coffee, a character I mentioned in the previous article. I read the words ‘kan-kan,’ and something about it immediately grabbed my attention. This was not a Cinemark nor a Royal Theater. It was clearly a local spot. The building was charming, the font of the sign was quirky, and I immediately knew by some outside force that this was a special place.
At the time, I had already taken a liking to saying to myself, “I’m going to meet someone who runs this place.” I’ve done so with Megan Jefferson, and I’ve done so with countless businesses and locations around the city that you will hopefully see sooner rather than later.
I know that manifesting is popular now, but instead of manifesting objects, money, or a job for myself, I have manifested connections. Frankly, it’s working quite well so far. I even wrote about it on LinkedIn.
When you reach out to someone with a message that connects and a truthful interest in what they are doing, you can open many doors for yourself. This is the main life lesson I’ve learned so far.
An email and a dream
I’m old school. I don’t know how I got this way, but I’ve developed a meaningful appreciation for a well-crafted email over the past few years. There’s something about sitting down, considering your words, and the rush you get right before clicking ‘send’ that makes it enjoyable. Honestly, if snail mail were still a primary form of communication, I’d love to use it. The considerations made while articulating a message to connect with someone are hard to perceive if you don’t do it a lot.
Additionally, much of this experience is lost through instant messaging, such as text and Instagram. It feels odd to read multiple paragraphs in those contexts. So I sent an email to the Kan-Kan general inquiries, and a couple of days/weeks later, Khaled answered the call. We scheduled a time, and the rest is history. In the case of Third Space Indy, my Kan-Kan is Gmail 😆.
Episode Summary
Creating Community Through Film: A Conversation with Khaled Khlifi
In this episode, Khaled Khlifi, the creative and marketing director at Kan-Kan Cinema and Restaurant in Indianapolis, discusses his role in promoting the cinema's unique offerings and its impact on the local community. Khaled shares how Kan-Kan aims to be a neighborhood hub by showcasing films that aren't typically shown in Indianapolis, as well as hosting events that foster community engagement. He talks about the importance of art in creating meaningful connections and his personal journey from Georgia to Indianapolis. Khaled also touches on the challenges and rewards of building a third space that serves as both an art space and a community center.
00:00 Introduction to Khaled Khlifi and Kan-Kan Cinema
01:09 Kan-Kan's Role in the Community
01:57 Unique Film Offerings and Nonprofit Mission
05:01 Supporting Local Filmmakers
08:52 Kan-Kan's Founding and Growth
09:35 The Concept of a Third Space
13:22 The Impact of Art on Community
19:16 The Origin of the Name 'Kan-Kan'
21:28 Moving to Indianapolis
22:19 Settling in During the Pandemic
22:54 Discovering the Art Scene
25:12 Living in the Neighborhood
26:23 Community and Connectivity
32:34 Reflections on Fear and Aspirations
38:39 Final Thoughts and Future Questions
Episode Transcript
Episode 3: Khaled Khlifi
Michael Zarick: [00:00:00] Hey there, Michael here. Thanks so much for listening to Third Space Indie. In this episode, I talked to Khaled Khlifi from the Theater over in Windsor Park.. I had an incredible time talking to him about local film building a community space and what it means to sort of consume art by a human. About halfway through the episode, I encountered a technical difficulty. I wrote a little bit about that in the show notes, but there is a noticeable, at least noticeable to me, drop off in audio quality. So. I apologize for that.
I have been working through that, on the production side, enjoy the episode and Khaled and I had a wonderful discussion. Thanks so much for listening and I hope you enjoy.
Khaled Khlifi: My name is Khaled Khlifi I am the creative and marketing director at the Kan-Kan Cinema [00:01:00] and Restaurant in Indianapolis, Indiana. The heart of Windsor Park, I believe our website says. And yeah, basically we are a small team here, and so creative marketing director.
I direct like three other hours of things, but basically I've got the responsibility to make sure everyone in the entire world knows about all the, the fun events and movies and all, all sorts of other, you know, special initiatives or partnerships or whatever we've got going on that they know that it's happening.
And
so social media channels our newsletter and making flyers for other organizations that we have stuff with or things like that. So basically like all the, all the visual identity, all the marketing, all the whatever. It comes through me here.
Hmm.
Michael Zarick: so you Oh, and I feel fine. I didn't answer that question, but I'm doing great.
Yeah. Yeah. It's a beautiful day outside, but it's a little cold, but
Khaled Khlifi: a little chilly. A little chilly, but uh, it's a little chilly in here too, but I think [00:02:00] that's okay. I think, you know, keeps us awake.
Michael Zarick: Alert. So you mentioned Windsor Park.
And obviously this is a community, focused film place theater, if you will.
So how does Kan-Kan fit into the community? Like, are you, do you feel like you're serving the neighborhood around or are you serving the wider Indianapolis? A, you know, along those lines,
Khaled Khlifi: a little bit of everything. we're really trying to become, the.
The neighborhood haunt, like the neighborhood hangout for a lot of people. it is that for a lot of like really immediate neighbors. We do, you know, our mission is to serve the entire city of Indianapolis, which you know, as a nonprofit for our cinema, we, we do a lot of community focused work.
A lot of community focused screenings and partnerships that do bring those sort of, like really local issue. Based, Events or whatever, comradery together. The only reason that I had a little bit of hesitation for a second there at the beginning was just because we are just based on like the way that we do things as a [00:03:00] nonprofit, we don't have to worry too much about the, the numbers, like box office numbers for a lot of things.
We, we can get some stuff from. You know, some revenue from other areas and grants and things like that. And that allows us to show a lot of things that no one else in Indianapolis is showing. And, we talk about that as like a nonprofit 'cause it is like service in that way.
Indianapolis has not gotten these movies before, has not gotten these kinds of things with any sort of real regularity. And so, just last year we had, I don't know when people are listening to this, but in 2024 alone, we had like 19 movies that no one else showed here. And those are all like independent, very small budget, very limited release that again, no one else will pick up because it's not profitable to do that.
But it has like a really clear artistic value. So yeah, part of what we want to do is to make Indianapolis a film city, to put it on par with Chicago, New York, LA and to be able to get the [00:04:00] sort of like limited release movies that, that no one else gets. That one wasn't necessarily a limited release, or it should, probably shouldn't have been, but we had Night Bitch, which only opened to 100 theaters.
In the entire country. And we were one of them. That's impressive. Yeah. And, and that's, that's just like a niche enough movie. We are a niche enough theater that like these things sort of come together for us. But we, we just take a ton of pride in. Being a place that didn't really exist before, even with some other arthouse theaters here.
We, and we love them as well, we're, we all know each other, we're all doing the same the things generally, but like our specific focus on, on
on
being this community space for
wildest, most important conversations that we can possibly have. Through the lens of film we've been at it for over three years now, and we're, we keep expanding and we keep adding more, more things that we're doing for that.
And I can rattle off some examples if that helps too. Yeah, we
Michael Zarick: can get into that. I think Both of my roommates in [00:05:00] college were they weren't necessarily um, film. Majors, but they were deeply involved in student film. Yeah. And recently I was actually watching a YouTube series where these two guys just travel across Japan with no tech, like just motor, motorcycle.
They're Americans, so they don't really speak good Japanese. And just like from the bottom tip to the northern most part of Japan. Yeah.
But just like a camera or GoPro or something. Yeah. Basically they had a team following them, so they didn't die. Oh, okay. Maybe cowards. Yeah, cowards truly. Come on.
But it reminded me of just like this sort of simpler time of like, so, like home video type stuff. Yeah. And my roommates in college did a lot of that stuff. They would show me the stuff they filmed do. Are you,
Is Kan-Kan or are you doing anything in Indianapolis to sort of foster up and coming artists, or are you holding.
Like a home video contest
Khaled Khlifi: or anything? We loved working with local filmmakers. We were founded, like part of our founders. [00:06:00] The which behind the scenes look, we, you know, you just met Tom and you met Ed. Sam and Ben are the other two, like sort of core founders and board members who, Got this whole thing running, financed, this whole thing. But the two people who really came with the know-how are like local filmmakers themselves and that's Daniel Jacobson and Dusty Frey, they were running a small, pop-up cinema thing in Indianapolis. 'cause like, I don't know because the sort of films that we show now weren't here.
And so they're like, all right, well how do we get like. Apichatpong Weerasethakul like, how do we get his movies here? How do we do it? And so like, all right, well we'll just do this. It's a really small audience. We can get a small space. We can just figure this out. We really want to be able to see it on a big screen and those sorts of things. And so So both of them are filmmakers themselves and Daniel still serves as our artistic director. so we, we do a ton of stuff with local filmmakers. We have a bunch of local film festivals that are here, plus we have like heavily discounted [00:07:00] stuff for getting premieres.
We love to do local film premieres. And in fact, one of our concession stand workers, Eli Cohen, has a movie coming up. Really soon. If you can't rip it off the top of your head, that's okay. No, it's called Artificial and I'm just thinking it actually, I think had to get pushed back for a reason, but, uh, it was supposed to be like a couple days from now or the 17th maybe.
But so that's getting like, moved around a little bit. But we have another one on this Thursday, April 10th, which I imagine this will probably drop after that, but a movie called a short film called The Festival, and that's a local filmmaker as well. So he's gonna show some, like behind the scenes footage as well as the short film itself.
we work with a lot of local artists for those sorts of premieres or to just get stuff up and running to show 'em. And. We're currently working on a few other sort of like filmmaker hangouts and things. 'cause we have wonderful event space and things like that where we can really activate our space and be this sort of [00:08:00] hub for those.
And the only thing holding us back from doing this is our, like all of our wildest dreams things.
Yes. For,
For how to do this is just. There are only five of us here, and we're still building our capacity. We're still really young. We still have a lot of like, sort of startup qualities to us.
Mm-hmm. So, uh, those things are building. We work with a few other things. Like there's Indy Film Fest and the Indianapolis Filmmakers Network are doing this like pitch fest thing. And we're we actually donated some prize money for that for the first, like, so they, you know, pitch and they get like $5,000 seed money to make their project for local filmmakers. And there's a local documentary company called Hoodox who like, we, we work with 'em a ton for a lot of stuff. So we're in the scene. We love, like I said, we want this to be a film city. We want this to like have that same thing where there are all these creatives who can come together and work on all these things and we.
Wanna not only facilitate that, but also host it once that happens. 'cause they're, these are amazing things. These are awesome, beautiful things. And a lot of us, I'm not a filmmaker myself but [00:09:00] we're. the sort of founding stuff, but there's some film connection with basically everybody here whether they've like done small documentaries or you said student films, things like that.
Or even like having bigger features at like Heartland Film Fest or whatever. We've had sort of all range of people work here and come through and yeah. Figure it out. So it's yeah we've got the energy. We've got the energy. We just gotta get the time.
Michael Zarick: Yeah. There is only so much time.
So you say you're not a filmmaker, but just to pay you compliment. Some of the most iconic and important parts of film is the poster
No,
you're a 2D graphic artist. So don't
slow yourself
down. Someone will seek you out sometime. I have made some film posters for some people. People before, but uh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So when was Kan-Kan founded? I'm failing my research.
Khaled Khlifi: All good. August, 2021. Oh, so very young. Yeah. Okay. We were supposed to open in like early 2020 and then there's something [00:10:00] COVID, co.
Co
Covid. Okay. I
Okay. I was
like, whatcha
Michael Zarick: getting at? Was there anything in this building prior? There
Khaled Khlifi: used to be a church
Michael Zarick: here.
that
Khaled Khlifi: out. A lot of
Michael Zarick: lot of
Khaled Khlifi: new businesses are in old churches. Yeah. It was a defunct church. It hadn't been open for a while, I believe. And then they were gonna just try to convert it, like straight up, convert it, but the space couldn't quite work out so they yeah. Shuffled. Yeah. Made this instead.
Michael Zarick: The reason I ask about when you opened, 'cause you've mentioned we are trying to make this the neighborhood haunt.
And the name of this podcast is Third Space Indy Are you familiar with the concept of a third space? Yeah. That is sort of the core driving principle of me talk, coming to speak to you, is that
We are sort of missing this place where people can go meet people, make friends, yeah.
And, you know, make a stronger community that they live in. How do you feel like. you talked about the events side, like what you're doing. Do you feel like in the four years, little under four years, right? Yeah. That you've been [00:11:00] open, that you've had this impact, could you see visible change or felt appreciation?
Khaled Khlifi: For sure. For sure. And I think it's yeah, like I said we're still trying to keep building it. I guess there's, yeah, I mean, in addition to all the design stuff, I'm also also the social media manager, so I get to talk to everybody.
Yeah. I get to like, without like, you know, putting anybody on blast or sharing names or whatever they're. People express all the time, like what this place sort of means for them or like how, having these, having a place for a lot of, I don't know, right?
Like connection, but also connection about something you love, right? Like there's no. We do show some tent pole movies. Like we just had like Mickey 17 or whatever. Yeah. But like the people who are seeing Mickey 17 with us are seeing it with us. 'cause they like the [00:12:00] Kan-Kan, right. Like they're, you could go have a very different experience on IMAX but like, it means something to like be able to see a movie like that with the kind of crowd the Kan-Kan has.
yeah, I'm not like trying to tap dance around anything. I'm no. It's a difficult question too. It's right. 'cause it's like, have you, I've had people tell me about their breakups, like, I'm just like, that's sort of what I, yeah, I think that's, it's just like, yeah,
we
we like these people who are in here all the time and just like, you should know that.
That we're no longer together. It's like, I haven't actually met this person face to face. And it's just like, what? Like, you know, in, in some ways strange, but in some ways not because of the work that we do.
Just
in any other thing. Right? Like, you're not gonna like. Email like 3M who makes Post-it notes, right.
To be like, Hey, I just wanted to let you know, like I'm going through a rough time right now. But like we, we do have that thing. Even if someone doesn't know my name, like we have a certain position in the world, we [00:13:00] have a certain way of going about it that like is incredibly human and is a thing that you don't get from a lot of places.
Yeah. And we're I don't know, like it's. I, yeah, it is strange being on the sort of front line of that of like, of that sort of like social dynamic, but it's also like we, we don't want it another way. We also love all these humans who are coming in to experience like art as art and film as art and while also, you know, showing Monsters Inc.
Last weekend. Yeah. And showing Die Hard for Christmas and doing, you know, like having those sorts of, yeah, how you would go about watching movies with your friends, right? That's the thing that we want to do here.
Michael Zarick: Yeah.
I think that's something that. We just struggle with in general.
I,
I struggle to watch television with my wife, so, right.
right.
I wanna go watch movies with people. I don't know. I think and just have a good time. Yeah. Yeah.
yeah, yeah.
And I'll try not to walk into Cinemark and tell the guy about how I lost my job. I'll tell, I'll say it here though. [00:14:00] Yeah.
Khaled Khlifi: And who knows? I mean, they might be pretty sympathetic to it, but like, you know, they haven't
they haven't
put in the work for that relationship first, so.
Michael Zarick: So, you were very obviously this is a sort of art driven space the art being film.
do you,
what do you feel like the impact of art is on a community, on a city, on a country? Maybe if you want to give full zoom out,
Yeah.
That's also a very hard question to throw at you.
Khaled Khlifi: Yeah. Oh,
Michael Zarick: gosh. How deep do you want to go on this?
Well, especially right now, right? I feel like there's a, yeah.
You
A level of threat to art and artists. Yeah. Even if the people who are proposing that threat are framing it in a way of charity. For people listening, I'm speaking about like artificial intelligence and sort of AI generated images and Yeah.
And film like. But I think something, personally, my personal opinion is that something is [00:15:00] lost in that case. And I'm more so asking like what your opinion is on what that art has on a community. Yeah.
Khaled Khlifi: I mean
Michael Zarick: I'm,
Khaled Khlifi: for my own personal whatever, I'm. And because I'm the one who does nearly all the graphic design here so that's the official Kan-Kan stance now too, I suppose.
But yeah, pretty anti AI for things. I think we film writing, like any sort of visual arts, any sort of like literary arts, any sort of. I'll say like whatever, physical arts, ballet, performance, anything like that. Like there's only meaning if it is human. Mm-hmm. I don't, I don't, I don't know.
I don't know a better way to say that like the if art is not done by humans, then it is communicating nothing and.
I suppose I'll say it a different way, which is that art, like art in quotation [00:16:00] marks created by a computer forecloses the possibility of connection with another human being.
Michael Zarick: I like that phrasing. 'cause it doesn't you're not eliminating the possibility, I
Khaled Khlifi: think. Yeah. That there's like something, you know, for the subject to, for the observer or something to be able to like look at something.
I'm not saying that you don't get any enjoyment out of that or that there's not something, I don't know. Right. Like some endorphin rush or some like serotonin hit or something that might come from that. But that like. I don't know. We drew buffalo on cave paintings for a reason. And it wasn't, it was to tell something about the world.
Tell someone something about the world or about yourself. That's what it's for. I don't know. Yeah. So it's like hard to, there's a reason why B movies are so. Like weirdly successful, right? Or that like that
we
watch the room and we can watch whatever, because like we get to see someone's [00:17:00] entire psyche on screen.
And that's like however broken
Michael Zarick: it may be,
Khaled Khlifi: however broken it is, or however, like, man, this, has this guy ever seen a movie before? Does he know how? Like, why would you cut to this scene now? Why would you do, you know, like you can like break all that down on a technical level or whatever, but like.
The real enjoyment for any of this is like one we get to see. We get to see this guy's. Can I curse on here? Yeah.
Sure,
I haven't thought that deeply about if it's appropriate yet. Yeah. I'm not gonna get you demonetized. No, that's okay.
okay. Here,
Here's where you insert the bleep. You get to see Tommy Wiseau's ass, but you also get to see the ass of all your friends here who are like experiencing this thing with you, right?
There's like something collective about it that like The cold distant machine can never understand. And so like, I would struggle to imagine like what a third space could be if it's not a human space. Like arts, increasingly like a thing that we still get to experience together that is not especially for places like [00:18:00] us that are a non-profit, that like have really, like, who have really low ticket prices and like a low barrier of entry to come in to do this stuff.
Like they're you know, and I'll say that too for places like, you know, children's Museum or Newfields or something like that where they have like neighborhood membership. Some things like that. For stuff, which we also do that as well. Neighborhood uh, you know, check our website for that map.
If you're a neighbor, you get a free membership. But the yeah, that, like Art is a really good facilitator of that of those spaces in a way that like, I don't know how we like organize a society without it. Yeah. There's a reason why like.
fascist regimes
start burning books and paintings and like, outsider art or whatever as well.
And I, I don't know, like I'm not making any great claims for the subversive qualities of the Kan-Kan, but like we show a lot of stuff. We've got like, you know, yeah. We show a lot of stuff. That, that's what I'll say, like, you know. Palestinian documentaries and anti, anti-VAX documentaries.
[00:19:00] Anti rise Anti, yeah, the anti rise of like, you know, nationalist forces and stuff like that. Like they're we show a lot of social issue movies and yeah. Yeah, with. the general threat right now for that kind of stuff. Right. Like we're, I don't know.
Yeah.
We are lucky to have felt immune to that for a while.
At least. Yeah, because it's pretty bleak. It's pretty bleak,
But
art helps. That was a really long answer. I apologize.
Michael Zarick: No, that was a good answer. To throw in a random diatribe, I do personally struggle with like the idea that. Art is only human. I struggle because I've had this thought for a long time.
Like, if I had a child and my child was like, I'm dating an Android. I think it's a different, I think it's a different conversation if it's real ai. Although I don't think current AI is true
for sure.
artificial intelligence. I don't believe that. Yeah. And I think that's the real disconnect for me. Yeah. It's a lot of guesswork in that way.
So let's [00:20:00] maybe. Recenter. And maybe actually before we go to Indianapolis is my last question about the Kan-Kan specifically is, yeah. does the word Kan-Kan have like an origin?
Khaled Khlifi: Oh yeah. It has everything to do with this too. Oh, really? Yeah. So the uh, Local legend, Kurt Vonnegut,
Kurt
Vonnegut, Jr.
His book, Cat's Cradle is where we get the name from. So there's a, there is a religion in there called uh, they're the Bokonists, Bokonism Bokononism whatever. Sorry. Bokononism I don't, I'm realizing I've never heard it said out loud. I've just read the book. We'll pull it up. Um, Yeah, so they, they're. In this religion, it's like, you know, these texts from this Bokonon guy and whatever, and it's all obviously like fabricated whole cloth.
And absurd and wonderful in all the ways Vonnegut is. And so, so the adherence of the religion have there's two kinds of [00:21:00] ways that people are cosmically linked and one of those is. Called a karass and that's like a true cosmic linkage. Like there's like something, yeah, cosmic spiritual, something that brings people together.
Or there's like a granfalloon, which is like a surface level thing, which like, he actually does give the example as like someone who he meets on a, like someone of the main character meets on a plane is just like, oh my God. We're both Hoosiers. Like, this is amazing. It's just like, well, you know, just like I don't know who the hell you are.
Like nothing that doesn't have anything to do with me, really. You know, so like that. So the goal of them is to find their karass and the instrument that brings people together is the Kan-Kan. And so that's what we wanted to be. We wanted to be the place that does that allows people to form those cosmic linkages.
And
because we're all film people. Film. Film is it for us? Those are the ways that I don't know the grad school friends that I still hang out with, it's because we have a movie club. Like we, like this is the thing that we do [00:22:00] together. That's like a way to keep in touch. And so we all have some form or fashion of that and feel like film can be that for us as like an accessible.
Art form
that also hits deep. I'm
Michael Zarick: really glad I asked that question 'cause I, that was
that was
perfect. I I had never before this moment considered why it was called Kan-Kan. Yeah. Not a dance.
not a,
Yeah. Truly. Yeah. I think that's probably most people's initial thought. So are you from Indianapolis? I'm not.
Where are you from? I'm from Georgia originally. Okay.
Khaled Khlifi: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: How did you get here?
Khaled Khlifi: Yeah, so, My wife is from Indianapolis. She, yeah, grew up here, all that stuff. And went to DePauw and then went somewhere else for grad school, then went somewhere else for grad school. So she got her PhD at UMass Amherst.
I got my MFA in creative writing at UMass Amherst. So we met there, and then I got a job at a foundation in Boston. It was just like. Of giving out money for education initiatives in the region and we wanted to buy a house and have a [00:23:00] child at some point, and that just that dream felt so far away in Boston.
But
the, probably it's even further now.
Well,
Well, yeah, for sure.
sure. But
the magical land of Indianapolis, we could, we could figure this out. Mm-hmm. Um, So we moved. We moved here four days before the governor's stay at home order. Went in place in 2020, March, 2020. That's a, that's an impressive time to move.
Yeah.
Yeah. So we're like, I mean, mercifully, my wife has like a lot of connections here and all of her friends from college like moved back to Indianapolis and stuff. So we had some community here already. Her mom's still in the area.
She's got.
You know, my, my folks are in South Carolina now. My brother's in California.
The Crossroads of America thing for Indianapolis really hits true for us in that way of just being sort of central to everything that we need or want. And and actually when we're moving, I'll say you're, I mean, you're asking about like how, how art does a space, but that was, that was the reason why Indianapolis like went on our list in general.
So we'd come back to visit and I'm like, oh gosh, this place is like [00:24:00] all the. Like sanctioned and unsanctioned street art and stuff like that. It just feels like very vibrant. I know, you know, it's like big enough that you get great concerts, you get great music, you get great, whatever. And like a lot of just fun stuff comes outta here.
So, like, my wife was surprised that I put it on the list. It was like Indianapolis. Like, no, it's got like, it feels, I don't know, it feels like every. Place that I've been, that has like a cool underground sort of art scene that's like thriving or is like, you know, growing and thriving rather. So do you still feel that way?
I now
Michael Zarick: that you've, it's been five years.
Khaled Khlifi: Yeah, I do. I do. There's like always a lot of cool stuff going on. And sometimes you have to search for it a little bit, I think it helps working at a place like the Kan-Kan where like everyone is an artist in some form or fashion.
You have an eclectic
Michael Zarick: group of people in here who have eclectic interests. And those eclectic interests eventually reach your ears. 20% of the
Khaled Khlifi: people are in a band. 20 other percent of the people make movies. Yeah. That everyone's a, you know, there's a lot of visual artists here. There's a lot.
of
So, yeah, it's like, yeah, all those conversations are always front of mind for me because I get to [00:25:00] like see all these cool people all the time.
Michael Zarick: That's awesome. So that is, would you say that sense of,
Let's call it hidden art or more guerilla artists or whatever the term you want to use? Yeah. Is that the main driver of you remaining here other than your family that you started? Yeah.
Khaled Khlifi: I mean, the kid helps. You know, that's a helpful thing to, to keep me in place for now.
Um, I don't know, just really like it here. it's, I'll say like, coming directly from Boston, but growing up like outside of Atlanta and like small towns. Do you know Flowery Branch Georgia? No, no one does.
Uh, the, The Falcons actually have their training center there now.
Okay. Um, but It's, It's getting like strip mall-y but it wasn't when I was there. But that there's like enough like, alright, well it has all the, it has all the stuff that I want out of Boston in Indianapolis, but also like the sort of pace inconveniences that I like grew up with in whatever way.
Like,
no, I, in Indianapolis. Yeah, has like, felt, has felt like my [00:26:00] town in a really amazing, wonderful way. So
do you,
do you don't live
Michael Zarick: in this neighborhood, right? You live elsewhere? I live just south of the fairgrounds. Okay. sort of near me. Not really. Yeah.
Yeah.
10 minutes away from the Kan-Kan, yeah.
Yeah. I live 20, so there we go. Oh. So in your area, like what you know, Kan-Kan is sort of like.
a,
I a pillar of this neighborhood. What's going on in your neighborhood? Like what are feeling, you've obviously got the fairgrounds, but that's more of a Indianapolis wide influence. Yeah. What in you live?
I would consider that Midtown, Indy or the north ish side. Yeah. What's going on up there? Any exciting stuff? You spend a lot of your days here, so maybe It's hard to say. I spend a lot of my days
Khaled Khlifi: here.
And
honestly pop up to Broad Ripple too. I mean, so, you know, all this stuff on 38th has been sort of disinvested for a long time, but that some of that's starting to come back.
I know. You know, I just got like a coffee shop not too far, like Blue Mind opened up. So it's nice to have like something like that.
I don't have any real sense of like the political [00:27:00] maneuvering for that stuff, but like, you know. The stuff that's being built around this area, all the housing and stuff hasn't quite made it to 38th yet.
That area's an odd thing and I know that like a lot of that land is like, sort of kept a little sparse because of the fairgrounds. Yeah. And all that, like service parking over there. So maybe delve into that.
Michael Zarick: So you've talked about what you really like about the city, the sort of, i'm gonna call it hidden art. There's other words for it. And you could probably describe it better, but do you feel like your part of the city that you live in, or just Indianapolis General is sort of being neglected or do you feel like there's a sense of anything going on or
or?
Khaled Khlifi: A little bit.
I mean, there's, there are like a, like I said, there's like a, there's some cool stuff around there. Like a Melody Inn is just down the road from us too, and that's. You know, I'm not much of a punk, but punk night there
is fun. It's, there's a good park It, It feels like it's a matter of time before, as like development or whatever is sort of spreading around. But I mean, that's like the only, like melody end's, like the only like nightlife thing [00:28:00] there. And so like the, there aren't a ton of. Like restaurants in that area,
it's not like a super abundant place. The nearest grocery store is like either 16th Street or like up on Keystone. So there's just like a decent that's, I'll say a grocery store that's not like Family Dollar or Dollar General or something. And so there's just like. Like, a few things need to go right for that to really feel like a more vibrant place.
But our neighborhood's like super quiet and nice and there's a little park around there that we like love to go. All the neighbors are amazing. They've all been there since like, some, since like the seventies or eighties. Our house was built in like 1920. And uh, yeah. Yeah. And like everyone's been really excited to have like another kid in the, like all their kids are gone sort of thing.
Like, they're all like out of the house. And so like yeah. It's an amazing place for that, like, as like a home life thing for us. Yeah. I think that's powerful. Yeah. And I've met a lot of, like, neighbor, like there's like a neighborhood block party every summer that I like, have met a lot of people and have gotten in my side hustle, graphic [00:29:00] design gig for stuff, whatever, like.
Like met people who were like, oh my gosh, you work at the Kan-Kan you do this? Like, do you have time for this? Like that sort of stuff that's just like, I don't know, it's a super neighborly place. And like the rest of the stuff that feels like a more like walkable, cool community isn't quite there, but it's right in the middle between like all the east, near East side stuff, all the downtown stuff and then all the Broad Ripple stuff. Yeah. Like we're really convenient to all that. Yeah. So we get it in other ways. Mark Latta
Michael Zarick: yesterday said, just like Indianapolis is just like too big.
It's for, to really achieve that sort of stuff. We really have to downsize in a lot of ways, which I agree with. Would love some more density for sure. Yes. But obviously I think our bus system has helped sort of alleviate a lot of that. Are you near a bus lane? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you ride the bus here?
Khaled Khlifi: Not all the time. I mean, it's hard. It's hard. You're on a odd schedule I bet. And yeah, dropping my kid off. My kids, school is like in the, is downtown and so it's like harder, to like, maneuver [00:30:00] that. There are days that it would be more convenient and then it's just like, if I need to drop him off, he would love to take the bus.
Michael Zarick: So
Khaled Khlifi: far, no.
Michael Zarick: Well, hopefully we can get to a point where it doesn't take two hours.
Are there, is there anything else you want to like speak on that's to your, just from your own personal preference, do you want to talk more about Kan-Kan? Is there something in Indianapolis you feel, is there just something in your heart that you want to share?
Khaled Khlifi: yeah, I guess it's, ,
The thing I'd say is like it takes a little bit of work, like third space stuff takes work And it is work on both ends. Both like having the, having the places to allow people in as well as like community doing it. And I feel like we are, we have been building a really dedicated community here.
I don't know if the Kan-Kan, might not be for everybody, so just. Find a space that it, that like works for you. Like It feels cheap and easy or something, but like being with people is the start, then organization can happen and then like change can happen, but it doesn't happen without, without the organization.
It doesn't happen without like being in [00:31:00] community first. You can't trust someone to hold onto the change that you need if you, you know, if you don't know them. So anyway. No, I that meet people, know everybody, figure out everything.
Michael Zarick: That's definitely something that's not been explicitly said yet, which is to build community.
You, you need the people first in a lot of ways. Yeah. So what I've had happen is I say, Hey I'd like you to ask a question to the next person on the podcast.
So Mark asked me a question, but after we stopped recording, he said, I want you to hand Khaled this poem, have him read the poem, which is, of course, Mark is a writer. So. And when you're done reading, I'll ask you the question that he asked. Sure. And I'll read this separately so you don't need to read out loud or anything just in your own head.
Okay. But it's called a Litany for Survival. Yeah. Audrey Lord. Uh,
Khaled Khlifi: absolute goat.
Michael Zarick: For those of us who live at the shoreline, standing upon the constant edges of decision, crucial and alone, for those of us who cannot indulge the passing dreams of [00:32:00] choice, who love and doorways coming and going in the hours between Dawns looking inward and outward at once, before and after seeking a, now that can breed futures Okay. Like bread in our children's mouths, so their dreams will not reflect the death of ours. For those of us who were imprinted with fear, like a faint line in the center of our foreheads, learning to be afraid with our mother's milk for by this weapon, this illusion of some safety to be found, the heavy footed hoped to silence us For all of us this instant and this triumph, we were never meant to survive. And when the sun rises, we are afraid it might not remain. And when the sun sets, we are afraid it might not rise in the morning when our stomachs are full. We are afraid of indigestion. When our stomachs are empty, we are afraid we may never eat again.
When we are loved, we are afraid. Love will vanish when we are alone, [00:33:00] we are afraid. Love will never return. And when we speak, we are afraid. Our words will not be heard nor welcomed. But when we are silent, we are still afraid. So it is better to speak. Remembering we were never meant to survive. So the question Mark posed to me or to you and he did know it was you, so maybe this was poignant, but he said, if you were not afraid. What would you do?
Khaled Khlifi: What would I do if I were not afraid?
Personally, right? If I were personally, I think take it however you feel, my initial reaction,
Michael Zarick: I was like, I'm gonna do a crime. I was like, I don't know if I should say that. Whatever.
Khaled Khlifi: What would, what crime would you do? I'm not gonna say that out loud. Okay. Fair none of this is admissible in court.
Yeah. Certainly not. Um, Yeah. Podcasts. Just can't be admissible. In Minecraft. In Minecraft.
Michael Zarick: And I am afraid so there is no crime. [00:34:00] Sure, yeah. Yeah.
Khaled Khlifi: If I were not afraid, This is the weirdest thing to say about an Indianapolis Placemaking podcast. I would I would go home and not back to Georgia, but to where like my father's from Tunisia, I would go back to Tunisia. There are enough factors that would like, prevent that from happening. But. Yeah, but it also has, I'm trying to get a visit going, not later this year, 'cause I really want my son to go, like he is, you know, he's four now and like, they just love kids there. It's just like such a mm-hmm.
Michael Zarick: all those sort of uh, in that sort of space in the world is like very family driven , I feel like.
Yeah.
Khaled Khlifi: Yeah. And you know, everyone's got their own like issues with whatever, but just I tell people this all the time, but like my, it was like the biggest shock to me the first time I went, I was a junior in high school and, my my cousin, she just like, we were in a, we were in a city that they are not from a few hours away, [00:35:00] and they, it was just like on a, yeah, I forget where we were, but it was, we were just like near the water, near the Mediterranean and like we were just sort of like wandering around this city.
And there was just this like toddler, maybe like a year and a half, but like walking, moving around a little bit and just sort of in space. And my cousin just like walked up and she picked up this child who was not hers. She was like 15 at the time.
So she's like, picks up this child who's not hers and is no, no relation to our family at all, and absolute stranger. And she just picks it up and she's just like talking to this baby and kissing it on the cheeks and just like. Like fawning over this child and I was just like, what would happen in the states if this happened?
You know, like talking about like what, like building a society that we want, or a community that we want or whatever. Like that's like radical trust is like an incredible thing. That like as a, I don't know how old you are. . 29. 29. Oh, you got your whole [00:36:00] life ahead of you.
Michael Zarick: you're not that you maybe your skin is lotioned so you're not I'm 38.
That's not that old. No, that's just a bit that I love. Of course, the oldest man in the world. The other podcast I wanna start is called nearly Dead. Nearly Dead as a 38-year-old. I simplify. Yeah. Well, the idea is that you. Interview like 30 year olds. Yeah. About how they feel like their life is over.
Yeah.
Khaled Khlifi: Yeah. Yeah. No, I, but I don't know, like there's, yeah, so I was like a kid, you know, early, like late eighties, early nineties, and all the stranger danger and like panic that i'm assuming kids still grow up with, I've seen the tiktoks of people like putting, zip ties on their car doors or, you know, like that sort of like mentality is like, I don't know if you take a step back from it or it get to exist in a different space that's not like that.
It's like. An incredible pathology that we have here. I desperately want my kid to experience like a childhood like that, like to do [00:37:00] whatever, but like, I, yeah, it's also just, I don't know, my arabic's pretty shit. Like it's, it just is. And but like, you know, I pick it up once I'm there, like, you know, I can get by, I can get in a cab and find my way around.
I can buy stuff at a store, but just like. Everything's just like different. It feels different. Like I'm sure part of it's like wrapped up in some like. deep psychological thing for me of like being growing up in a city where there were only two Arab people in my school and the other one was my brother. And so like, you know what I mean? Like that sort of like community and connection that's based on like something there.
I mean, we talked about the Kan-Kan and karass like. I have met enough people in Tunisia where I like know, I know I like, I have a karass there, I have karass here as well. But just yeah, I would love to spend a lot of time there. And if I wasn't, you know, if things had worked out differently in some way, like I, I would want to be there.
No. Yeah. Yeah. But again, I love Indianapolis. It's uh, you know, six months on, six months off. I just gotta figure out a way to do that.
Michael Zarick: [00:38:00] become the new executive director, get massive amounts of funding, and then spend half of your year we'll start,
Khaled Khlifi: we'll start at Kan-Kan. Tunisia, correct? Yeah.
Oh gosh, where would I put it? Maybe Sousse is nice. My family isn't Sfax but Yeah. Yeah. So Kan-Kan Sfax campus. And I'll just be the director over there. That'll be great. We accept that your words are
Michael Zarick: accepted. If I had to learn a second language, it would be Arabic. I am half Lebanese. I don't know if that Oh no.
Yeah, you didn't even recognize my last name. I, yeah, I was curious. Zara, um. yeah, Zarick that's why it's probably the Americanized version, but it's also where Catholic Lebanese, so it's not super I'm not, I don't identify as Arab in any way except for the Lebanese, but yeah, well even that is like a very small part.
But I really appreciate you sharing what you would do if you were not afraid. I think though I really appreciated Mark's open-endedness in his. Question, [00:39:00] would she frame? Is
Khaled Khlifi: that right? I have no idea. It might be that if you pronounce it Zarick it's Zarick is that you said? Yeah. Yeah. It'd be closer to that.
Like a little versus exotic. Yeah. Yeah. I think that'd be a, I've never
Michael Zarick: been too. I think that's about right. I've never been too tight on the pronunciation. I just say ERs what I do. Yeah. Yeah. Fair.
Khaled Khlifi: I mean, I say kd, ccle, cod.
Michael Zarick: Gotta get word. Yeah. Yeah. Able. All right. So what question? I don't have another interview line.
You can't even know the name. Oh my gosh. What question would you ask the next person? Yeah, should. It doesn't have to be as, should I have a poem? No, it doesn't wrote a poem. I think Mark is a deeply he's artistic at heart. Yeah. Which obviously you might be as well. But I the idea of the question is just to build a tradition and sort of a sense of continuity.
So don't, the first question was about Indianapolis, this question's about, it's more yeah. Esoteric, I think. Yeah. [00:40:00] But don't think too hard about it. Just whatever comes to mind.
Khaled Khlifi: Yeah, I I don't know. I mean, I think a lot about like, like class and politics and things like that, and like how art is possible, I suppose.
And as like a, as, I don't know kid who didn't grow up in a very artistic household and then going to a grad school program for a creative art was just like, ah. It's like a, you know, they're all like great writers and like really wonderful people and all that stuff, but it was like, there's a lot of trust fund kids there.
Making art is a, is easier if you have a lot of free time and a lot of means, right? And so we all know this. So my, my question is like, given infinite time, what would you make, what would you make for yourself? What would you do? For yourself or for others, what would you make for yourself? What, yeah, what thing would you create for yourself artistically given the time, given the space?
I love that
Michael Zarick: I, [00:41:00] right now I am you know, reconsidering all my life choices. Sure. And I would say for myself, yeah, there's, well, every time's a good time. I don't think there is no too late. That's something I'm learning is there is no too late. Yeah. I've been thinking a lot about architecture yeah.
And. Public infrastructure and pedestrian infrastructure. And to answer your question, for myself, I would say I would create a beautiful space. Yeah. That serves me. Yeah. Yeah.
Khaled Khlifi: Indy
Michael Zarick: needs more home start building. We're trying. All right. Well, uh, thank you Khaled Thanks for joining me. Yeah. Thanks for coming in.
Yeah. Shook my hair. Yeah, if you wouldn't mind. Yeah, hopefully we can learn Arabic together. Relearn, I suppose, for you.
thanks so much for listening to this episode of Third Space Indy You can find Khaled and the rest of the Kan-Kan crew in Windsor Park on the near east side of Indianapolis. They have events there going every day of the week. Don't know how they make [00:42:00] that happen, but they do. And if you love film, that's the place to check it out.
You can also find them on Instagram at Kankan Cinema. Kan-Kan spelled with a k,
the Kan-Kan restaurant also posts on Instagram under Kankan restaurant, and they post some gorgeous food. Can't wait to make it over there someday.
And of course, if you're interested in reading the show notes for this episode, those can be found at thirdspaceindy.com. You can click through the archive, see all the show notes there, including this one with Khaled Khlifi you can also sign up to receive those show notes as soon as I send them out at whenever I feel like it sharp on Monday morning.
the intro song for Third Space Indy is done by the local artist, Jennasen. Thank you so much, Jennasen, for permission to use your amazing song.
I really look forward to sharing the next episode of Third Space Indy with you. Thank you so much for listening. Have a wonderful day.
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