Ep. 47 - Jay Grillo - Multimedia artist, documentarian, and organizer
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Episode Summary
Jay Grillo is a multimedia artist, documentarian, and organizer at the Indianapolis Liberation Center. Michael sits down with Jay inside the Liberation Center in Fountain Square to talk about art as solidarity, cultural identity, and building community through showing up.
Sponsors:
City Rising (cityrising.org)
Intro music: Scared Rabbit by Jennasen
Timestamps
0:51 — Intro
5:52 — Design work, Folklórico dancing, and the Latino arts community
7:25 — Documentary work and storytelling in solidarity
14:00 — De Aquí y De Allá and third-generation immigrant identity
26:02 — The Indianapolis Liberation Center
33:41 — Getting involved and the power of showing up
39:24 — Touch Grass Indy
41:34 — Canned questions
Episode Transcript
Jay Grillo
Jay Grillo: [00:00:00] It's also a place to be a little bit annoying, but mostly like in your conversations, in your loudness, whether it be, how you feel when you. At a bar chumming up with your friends and you're the table that everyone's looking at. 'cause you're laughing so hard. That's a little bit annoying.
And I think that's what I like about Third Spaces is to be a little bit annoying.
Because gotta let loose a little bit and even, even, uh, politically speaking here, like, let's yell about the state of the world because it is annoying.
Shit's annoying. Let's talk about it. So I think, I think the Third Space is just a place that you can be a little bit annoying.
Michael Zarick: Hello. My name is Michael Zarick. This is Third Space Indy. In 1989, a man named Ray Oldenberg wrote a book called The Great [00:01:00] Good Place. And in this book, he coined the term, the Third Place.
This describes somewhere outside of your work and outside of your home that you can go be with others, be together, build community, and just be yourself. So I've made it my goal to find people all over Indianapolis who are doing their very best to make those types of spaces. Today I'm sitting in the Indy Liberation Center, uh, with one of, I don't know what you'd call yourself.
One of its members.
Jay Grillo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Zarick: Participants.
Jay Grillo: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Something like that. Organizers. Organizers. That's a great word. Yeah. I'm sitting with Jay Grillo
Jay Grillo: mm-hmm.
Michael Zarick: Here in the Indy Liberation Center, and we're gonna have a lovely conversation. 'cause Jay is a wonderful artist, community organizer, somebody who cares passionately about people. Uh, and somebody I have, uh, been interested in talking to for a while. So,
Jay Grillo: yeah.
Michael Zarick: Uh, Jay.
Hello.
Jay Grillo: Hi.
Michael Zarick: Can you tell me Yes. The phrase that I forgot?
Jay Grillo: Yes. [00:02:00] Um, to introduce myself. I am Jay. I am a multimedia artist and documentarian and organizer for the Indianapolis Liberation Center. And I actually met you at our grand opening here back in December.
Michael Zarick: I totally forgot. So, yeah, I didn't actually forget that happened.
I just, I do want to take a note on that. I felt so weird that night I walked in, Because I actually, I forget why I was down here. I was down here for something and it was happening at the same time. Uh, and I just walked in and I was like, I really don't wanna be around people right now. So I am walking.
So
Jay Grillo: you came to a very crowded report.
Michael Zarick: I came to a very crowded event. I sought out you, 'cause I had been following you on Instagram. Said hello, introduced myself, and then immediately left.
Jay Grillo: Yeah. Yep. But it was good to see you. Yeah,
Michael Zarick: I just like, I did not wanna be around people and then I proceeded to like, it was really cold that day.
Do you remember?
Jay Grillo: Yes, yes. I do remember
Michael Zarick: I proceeded to walk like three miles. Wow. Just like, well because
Jay Grillo: back towards the Fountain Square.
Michael Zarick: Back towards [00:03:00] Fountain Square. But normally I would just like get on the red line and go back. Yeah. But I just like. I checked the map, there was no bus nearby. And I was like, all right, I'm just gonna walk.
So I just like sent it downtown. Um, I think it was the first Friday actually
Jay Grillo: it, it was the first Friday. It was December 5th, so yeah. What?
Michael Zarick: Yeah, I think my idea was to maybe go to a different first Friday thing, but then I was like, okay, nevermind. I'm cold. And then I just eventually got back on the bus.
Jay Grillo: Yep, yep.
Michael Zarick: Uh, it was a really odd night. Anyways.
Jay Grillo: Yes. I'm glad you made it. Nonetheless. It was a great opening and for it being as cold, we were really happy to see how many people showed up for the opening. And it was an opening 'cause we had moved and so we saw a lot of familiar faces from the old space.
And then we also gotta see a lot of new people.
Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.
Jay Grillo: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: And so for anybody who may not know, in your own words
Jay Grillo: mm-hmm.
Michael Zarick: Can you tell the people who you are, what you're about?
Jay Grillo: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: What you do, anything.
Jay Grillo: Yeah, uh, I mentioned documentarian, but I like the three D's of [00:04:00] my identity. Um, documentarian, designer and dancer.
So I could attribute three major points in my life with those three titles. And being a documentarian means, uh, for me, um, working to tell stories and mostly those stories are in solidarity with others or are focused on solidarity with, um, people of all walks of life, uh, working class of the city and of the world.
And I show that through the artist spotlights I've created, but also down alongside. Organizing efforts with people of the Liberation Center, all the different member groups. I'm a member of other groups that are member groups of the center. Um, all but like two. And so working with a ton and, uh, vast variety of people.
As a designer, that was my first passion in the creativity. So designing things like logos and branding stuff, but [00:05:00] also designed a lot of, uh, things through Photoshop. And I also got the chance to design, um, work with like, uh, illustrating the posters that IndyGo had commissioned me to do, to do, um, big, uh, illustrated posters for two parks that were posted up at the, the big banner.
Things that you can see on the bus stops that are downtown. Oh,
Michael Zarick: okay. Yeah.
Jay Grillo: Um, that, that was for a little bit and then they started putting ads in there, but whatever. And then, uh, also use those skills to do other things like editing and, um, design stuff that are like written content. And then dancing, which is new, but
Michael Zarick: how new?
Jay Grillo: Like four years new.
Michael Zarick: That's
Jay Grillo: not
Michael Zarick: new.
Jay Grillo: I'm 29 though. It feels new enough. I started it in my, when you're
Michael Zarick: 29, 4 years is a chunk of your life.
Jay Grillo: That's that. It's true. But it also started in my mid twenties. So I had [00:06:00] like started adulthood. In this thing of thinking, let me just start something. Lemme start dancing.
And I do, uh, a style of Mexican traditional dance called Folklórico and the group is,
wait,
Michael Zarick: say that one more time.
Jay Grillo: Folklórico
Michael Zarick: folk. Oh,
Jay Grillo: okay. Is the Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Listening back to the audio, I don't think the word comes through clearly. So the word is folklórico, which is a traditional folkloric dance.
Jay Grillo: And the, uh, group of Folclórico Macehauni is the group I dance with, make sure the performance last night, um, that I got to introduce the whole entire group, uh, as just myself and being like, anyone's welcome.
'cause the whole point of the group is that anyone's welcome all ages and all experiences and I'm really happy to be part of that and the center and just everything else that I. I try to dip my toes in.
Michael Zarick: Amazing.
Jay Grillo: Yeah. That's a long, long answer to your question, but happy to talk about
Michael Zarick: That's perfect.
'cause it gives me a lot of stuff to talk about. Yeah. This, the creeping down the stairs is hilarious. Um,
Jay Grillo: yes. Mind you, [00:07:00] mind you, this is an active, this is an active Third Space right now. We got community members in here, uh, organizing a way to their hearts content for things that we always are operating with in the space.
So
Michael Zarick: yeah, I think we'll get to that, uh, a little later on.
Jay Grillo: Yes.
Michael Zarick: Right now I'd like to focus on you.
Jay Grillo: Okay. Yes. '
Michael Zarick: cause I think that's what I'm interested in, especially 'cause you brought up so many different, aspects of yourself.
Jay Grillo: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: When you talk about being a documentarian
Jay Grillo: mm-hmm.
Michael Zarick: And telling the stories of others.
Jay Grillo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Zarick: I think in a lot of ways, like I, that's part of the reason I like doing this is like telling the story of the city or of of individuals within it. And knowing you and your interests as somebody who works with the Indy Liberation Center. What is it about telling stories that you feel like you are putting out into the world
Jay Grillo: mm-hmm.
Michael Zarick: that you find compelling or others might find compelling also?
Jay Grillo: I was told, not that long ago at all, like maybe four months ago, that my, [00:08:00] my art, someone told me my art is other people, and I was kind of blown away by that. 'cause I was just like, what does that even mean? How does that work? Uh, and it works a lot like how, what you're doing for sure.
Um, and to document also means to kind of tell, it's always gonna be a biased story, but it's going to be an important one at the very least. Something that for me is trying to tell stories of underrepresented peoples. So in artist spotlights that I have done and are mostly what can be seen on. My business is like, Instagram page is, um, all artist spotlights related to artists in Indy, but they're people that I just like, people need to see their work.
I just really like them or their work and whether or not they've just started or have been doing it for a while, I am both a fan of, but also, um, think they deserve their flowers and recognition and stuff like that. [00:09:00] But I also do that elsewhere with photography and event photography. I mean, I started, um, with the center working alongside organizers to document the library struggle when the library was having, um, a.
racist CEO in charge that then got ousted and then they tried to find an in, uh, new CEO, they had an interim that the library union and a lot of people liked and pushed for her, for Michelle Hayes to be that CEO. Um, over a longstanding period of battles with the library board, um, just kind of looped me in and wrap me into this world of both finding a vision for documentary work, um, that means something that is centered around solidarity, but also finding a home like here to do the organizing work, um, outside of behind the camera.
Mm-hmm. So I can be, um, having the, the know withall of what it means to [00:10:00] do that well and efficiently and tactfully and also competently. 'cause there's a lot of, uh, cultural competence that needs to go into documenting things. Um, and then also, uh, being around these artists in this art. Community, um, and knowing them personally, so I can stick a camera in front of their face and talk to them is, is also, uh, needed for Yeah.
This kind of,
Michael Zarick: there's a level of like, trust that is required. Um, well you, you mentioned cultural competency. Yeah. It's like if you were walking into a space as an outsider.
Jay Grillo: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Um, not only are you gonna potentially tell the story in offensive or wrong way, like there's also a level of like comfort that comes with them being willing to share certain details or certain pieces of themself with you, you know?
Jay Grillo: Yeah, yeah. For sure. Um, and having the skill built up over time of doing interviews, I'm sure you know as well, is like just making the person feel comfortable on camera.
Michael Zarick: Yeah.
Jay Grillo: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Uh, Samuel Penaloza. [00:11:00]
Jay Grillo: Yes.
Michael Zarick: Who is the most recent ar artist highlight? You did. I'm glad you reminded me of it.
Jay Grillo: Yes.
Michael Zarick: Yeah. Um, can you share a little bit about him?
Jay Grillo: Yeah. Uh, Sammy is,
Michael Zarick: or them or?
Jay Grillo: Yeah, he, he, yeah. Um, Sammy is a, uh, teaching artist at Monarca Academy. He also works alongside the teaching instructor that teaches our dance group, uh, um, Carol Nunez. And that is a school that is, uh, mostly has Latino students. And he was telling me a little bit about, and it's in the video too, of like, how it's important for him to be a Latino male teacher in, uh, the art world and, and be able to come from, you know, a self-taught background to then teaching is something that, um, he didn't see himself doing, but he's happy to do.
And I was really most interested in that. Like, his art is really interesting here. He was talking a lot about [00:12:00] how he's shown it a couple other places. And, um, it, this is the gallery, the FCA Du Bois Gallery inside the center. Where we're hosting is art and it is, um, called the extremes of Sammy Penaloza.
And so there's a lot of, uh, really cool and eclectic art here. Um, but he's actually trying to shift more into something that kind of reflects his time with the kids at the school that feels more childlike and, um, reverting to a childlike state for him that I am happy to see he's leaning into. And I hope to see more of, uh, from him.
It was cool to get to know him 'cause I didn't know him before. Um, he was in here. I knew of him and I've met him, but, um, never had a chance to really sit down with him. And he was also in the same artist program I was. We were both in the Latino Artist Mentorship Program. He was in the first cohort in 2023, and I was in the most recent cohort in 2025.
And I'm glad we had that [00:13:00] connection so we could make, uh, this. World of Latino artists a little bit bigger, um, with the help of like, art Deno in Indiana, which helps put on this gallery, so.
Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.
Jay Grillo: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Carla, um, Lopez Owens this morning told me that the largest group, largest growing group of small business owners is Latino women, which I thought was pretty cool.
Yeah. Talking about like how this like very underrepresented group of people is sort of getting out and sort of putting themselves out there and doing interesting things, I think is cool.
Jay Grillo: Yeah. It's a, it's a growing network too. Um, most people in the community know, most people in the community, whether it be the Latino community, the arts community, and both those communities intersecting.
I'm finding myself a lot in all the time, and that's even smaller, but such a tight-knit community that we try to prop each other up as much as we can.
Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.
Jay Grillo: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Um, your recent [00:14:00] show
Jay Grillo: mm-hmm.
Michael Zarick: Art show.
Jay Grillo: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: In January.
Jay Grillo: Yes.
Michael Zarick: Can you share a little bit about that as well? Yes.
Jay Grillo: That was part of the end of curriculum group show for the Latino Artist Mentorship Program that was called De Aquí y De Allá, which is, um, from here and from there, uh, it's a, it's a turn of the heel on the more popular saying, which is, um, neither from here or there, which a lot of, uh, people who are immigrants or from immigrant families or backgrounds or heritages feel when they don't feel like they're really from America, but also don't really feel like they're from their home country and they don't know they can't find a place.
The point of that group show is, and the theme around it is to find your place. Despite that and because of both, embrace both, you are there in both and the. Aspect of that that I wanted to bring from my [00:15:00] perspective as a digital artist who had to make a physical thing was to create a display case of memorabilia that hosted a TV that had this video collage of scanned letters that had mostly I just focused on the people writing my name.
Um, overlaid on digitized home video that I had had forever. And it fit with the work that I do, which is, um, digital documentation and being able to take that legit documentation and turn it into an art piece, whether it be, uh, a museum style showcase of memorabilia that I've kept over the years. 'cause I'm a hoarder or a artistically.
Rendered video to invoke nostalgia? Either way, it is, uh, um, something that I, I [00:16:00] had my first try at at a physical art thing and it was cool to be alongside artists who had paintings and photographs and like crochet and like stuff that, you know, you think about when you think about art in a museum. 'cause it was at the Eiteljorg.
I felt very, it felt very daunting to think, wow, this is gonna be in the idols Jorg, I have to like, make it count.
Michael Zarick: When you talk about that sort of dissonance of neither here nor there
Jay Grillo: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: As a visual artist, did you get the sort of same dissonance being among people with the type of art you're talking about?
Like what would consider Yes. Considering being like, oh, I am an artist, but I'm also like in a different realm than these other people.
Jay Grillo: Yeah. Yes. It was my fear going in for sure. And uh, most of my living is. Done through marketing. And so while we do interviews now with, um, one of the roles I have, it's still creative marketing.
It's still [00:17:00] spotlighting to, to sell both the story, but the story, uh, leads people to follow or buy a product or whatever. And I use those skills for artists spotlights, but I also wanted to use my skills as a designer to make something that just wasn't selling anything other than an idea to invoke something.
And I wasn't just filling the feeling, the distance of like the people that are in my cohort who are my friends. And I wasn't trying to compare myself to them. I knew I had to go my own path, so did everyone else. Um, but I also wanted to put a spin on it because I am third generation people are either just immigrated, um, or.
They've spent their whole adult life as an immigrant here, or they're a child of immigrants and like, they're more close to that cultural identity than I am. And, um, that's also a little daunting. And [00:18:00] so my here or there was the past and present and how do I meld the past that I've been told about, that I've experienced tangentially through family members at family gatherings mm-hmm.
Or in stories from my, uh, grandparents or like, what, what can I take, um, from an assimilated cultural identity and evoke something, um, that fits the theme with everyone else who's really closely tied to their identity. Yeah. And it came through exploring the past as someone who digitizes a lot of past things, uh, whether it be photographs or video.
Michael Zarick: Yeah. Are you fluent in Spanish?
Jay Grillo: No.
Michael Zarick: Okay.
Jay Grillo: That's a
Michael Zarick: So, well, I, the reason I bring this up is because, um. Um, I mentioned earlier that I'm half Lebanese. Mm-hmm. Half Lebanese Syrian who were
Jay Grillo: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Learning modern day Michael. Um, and like growing up, I feel like I had a very similar experience to you, whereas like my [00:19:00] going to Cincinnati and visiting my grandma
Jay Grillo: mm-hmm.
Michael Zarick: Who would be, I guess considered first generation if, if she didn't come over on the boat, but she was, uh, or if she did, it was her mother who was on the boat. I don't know any of that stuff. But, uh, when you talk about being third generation, if my father was second, then I'm third. Mm-hmm. Having that, um, experience of like them talking about this type of stuff, but still experiencing a little bit of it.
Like we had Lebanese food regularly, like, um, and had that sort of direct connection, but also having no knowledge on how to say any Arabic words. Mm-hmm. Beyond like specific like food words. Yeah. Or like sitti, which is like grandma. Yeah.
Jay Grillo: Yeah. I feel that
Michael Zarick: versus like going to college and meeting other Lebanese people who were at least semi fluent in Arabic.
Mm-hmm. They regularly visited Lebanon and had family there, like [00:20:00] direct family there and knew people there. Um, and just having that sort of total, almost culture shock. 'cause it's like, no, not everyone is like a white boy like me, basically.
Jay Grillo: Yeah. I feel that really heavily the, uh, part of me that gets to explore.
What that looks like as an adult is the part of me that took the leap to just join this dance group. It was because I wanted to do it in secret and I did, uh, for, until our first performance.
Michael Zarick: What does in secret mean?
Jay Grillo: It means I literally didn't tell anyone, but my friends ex and my family didn't know.
Michael Zarick: Okay.
Jay Grillo: Um, and so I wanted to then suddenly be like, Hey family, I have a performance coming up. And then they're like, what? And really it was just impressed my grandma and it worked. She was very impressed. Yeah. Cried was like, like, this reminds me of this and this and this. And I was just like, okay. I, I feel like [00:21:00] not all is lost.
You know? The, the seeds of, of, of ancestors being passed down to be planted to this day is like paying off in a way. And it's nice to, to. Uh, see that come to fruition even though I had felt so far removed for a lot, for a long time. Um, but also forcing myself to be in this group where most of the instructions are in Spanish and I just have to learn it.
And like also being intersected with the art world, the dance scene, and this organizing space and having, um, a upbringing that have felt more pri privileged than the people that came before me. I wanna use that privilege to uplift people in the community. So being able to already spotlight three artists this year that are from the Latino community and, uh, being able to speak on behalf of [00:22:00] the dance group yesterday is, um, is like its own.
Special feeling, but also it's utilizing privileges and experiences and opportunities that I have, um, to benefit the people around me first.
Michael Zarick: So have you gotten anything out of, um, dancing that, uh, goes beyond just like the loose connections to your cultural heritage? Oh yeah. Like
Jay Grillo: some amazing friends.
Michael Zarick: Yeah.
Jay Grillo: And it's all ages. So, uh, there's something very interesting that happens when it's all ages and you are an adult in that space with not that many adults. It's like, I feel like an older sibling to everyone there that is pretty much from teenage to, um, to like, I think the youngest is maybe six years old and it has this, um, [00:23:00] nice feeling of, while I do have my.
Younger brother who's currently in, uh, he's in Tampa, he's been there for a minute. He kind of left the same time I joined this group. So I felt like, I'm like, okay, I get to still be an older sibling to people and be an example to kids, to students, and, uh, be a student alongside them. Show them that I'm just as clumsy or, and they're, if not better than me, um, is also humbling.
But, uh, it is interesting to, to be there for, um, kids and students that are just part of your community, um, that you don't get the chance to interact with unless you join a group like that, um, who are all dedicated to the same goal, which is putting on a good performance. And then you make really good friends with those that are around your age, which is a major benefit 'cause Yeah.
Uh, I, I can't tell you how many times that I've loved going [00:24:00] out with, um. If those people after, like, after a performance, like last year we went to the jazz kitchen, we performed and only the adults could do it because Of course. And that was like the best, I don't know. That was so fun. It was so cool to be there.
I actually saw Sierra there. Um, 'cause it was the Latin jazz night. Oh,
Michael Zarick: okay.
Jay Grillo: And, uh, we got to put on mobile phones. Wait,
Michael Zarick: they do that every week, right?
Jay Grillo: They do it every week. Okay. But they just invited us out. Cool. To, to do a little something. And it was, uh, fun to. Exist in a more relaxed space. Typically it's like, meet this mark, make this happen.
Do this fast, or learn how to do it with us to the side. Make sure that you get the steps right. Practice at home. It's all like, go, go, go train, train, train. Do your best and it's good. But the moment you get to then sit back and relax and drink with these people, it's like then, then that's, that's the mo.
That's the most memorable times with
Michael Zarick: Well, it's also like a [00:25:00] release too.
Jay Grillo: Yes. It's a big
Michael Zarick: release because you're just like, you're all balled up.
Jay Grillo: Yes.
Michael Zarick: And then you perform.
Jay Grillo: Yep.
Michael Zarick: That's the half measure, basically. And then at the end you're just like,
Jay Grillo: yeah,
Michael Zarick: take a deep breath.
Jay Grillo: The same thing happens here, like getting to have downtime with fellow organizers who I only really get to see when we have meetings or go to protest or put on some big event, having downtime.
Like we went to karaoke a couple weeks ago with a few of us and like just being. Able to feel in that safety and then also be awkward in it and get to know each other. It, it's, uh, it's like how people think that being friends with your coworkers is gonna go but like a thousand times better because it actually works out.
Michael Zarick: That's
Jay Grillo: why. And you don't get, you don't get this weird, like, are they gonna tell on me feeling that you do with coworkers? So
Michael Zarick: yeah.
Jay Grillo: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Shout out to my wife. She has great coworkers who are not, uh, rats.
Jay Grillo: Good. I'm
Michael Zarick: gonna [00:26:00] be
Jay Grillo: happy for her.
Michael Zarick: Uh, so you, I brought up the Indy Liberation Center where we are a couple of times for those who do not know what this place is.
Jay Grillo: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Can you share?
Jay Grillo: Yeah. The Indianapolis Liberation Center is a people center. It's here for everybody, all walks of life, the marginalized, the oppressed. Um, and we try to represent that through our member groups, through our organizers, through the efforts we make. Um, and. It's not just, uh, a like protest group or whatever, like clearly you see art around us.
It's an art gallery. It's a yoga studio for, on Sunday nights. It's a meditation center on Saturday mornings. It's, um, an event center throughout the week and it hosts First Fridays and it has a bookstore that is our newest thing that the Center has been proud to, um, hold. And we just did [00:27:00] Indy book crawl with the, with the bookstore, and that brought in a lot of people.
And so we, all, our books are geared towards that same goal as well, curated by the organizers and everyone here, um, who is an organizing member, whether they're part of the member group or is just individual. Um. The way that it functions, the way that it runs is that we pay to be here through our dues and like through our time and through our skills.
Um, Spencer Elliot built this stage and installed the sign out front, and many other people that have been here have contributed the furniture and the chairs and the books, and made the shirts and the buttons. And we all contribute our time and efforts and skills to make this place run. Um, as we are part of the working class, we also want to represent the working class well, and, um, so we invite others to work alongside us.
Yeah. In all those efforts too, have
Michael Zarick: you ever heard the term sweat equity?
Jay Grillo: I haven't, but I, [00:28:00] I feel like it makes sense for what I just described.
Michael Zarick: A lot of times it gets used in, like, for example, if you're like building a house, putting in sweat equity as a way to assist in paying it off, so like you help build the house.
As a way of paying down your house payments. Ah. So,
Jay Grillo: ah, yeah.
Michael Zarick: Um, but I think in this case it could be used in the context of like, you are putting your whole ass into creating the space that you also want to exist within.
Jay Grillo: Yes. Yes.
Michael Zarick: Uh, because I think you maybe spend as much time here as any other space
Jay Grillo: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Uh, in your life.
Jay Grillo: Yep.
Michael Zarick: what, um, I guess 'cause you guys house a number of different organizations. Yeah. What is it about, like the Indy Liberation Center that you think, actually, I'm interested in the, sorry to pivot back.
Jay Grillo: Yeah, that's
Michael Zarick: fine. You mentioned the book Crawl.
Jay Grillo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Zarick: Um, and seeing like new faces in here.
Jay Grillo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Zarick: Did you find that when people came in, they were like, oh my God, I can't believe a place like this exists.
Jay Grillo: Oh, oh my
Michael Zarick: God. Because you guys have,
Jay Grillo: we've heard that a thousand times
Michael Zarick: because you guys have a number of books that I [00:29:00] think, uh, either would be in the, like, far back of a certain bookstore mm-hmm.
Or just maybe, um, wouldn't be considered like,
Jay Grillo: yeah.
Michael Zarick: It's, it's like you run the type of bookstore that Republicans think like is in a children's library, I guess.
Jay Grillo: Yes.
Michael Zarick: Uh, so like when you are, invite people into the space. Yeah. Um, what do you think, uh, they, that you're like putting out? Yeah. In terms of like the message and, and stuff like that.
Jay Grillo: I think the conversation I had with my grandma just the other day on Easter kind of sums up a lot of that answer is kind of a shock at the realization of how much it encompasses. Um, for people who have been more reserved or conservative, um, or closed off or even just like stuck in maybe a more [00:30:00] liberal bubble, have this, um, may have this notion of like the.
Stuff that we promote. The, the people were for liberation is this kind of like anti-everything, cynical, spiteful, super, uh, uh, gay and, and, and annoying and all this like negative connotations that mostly are propagated through social media, um, is just like, this is for everybody. Is for, it is for the, the most annoying and the most gay, but it is also for the most oppressed and the most, uh, uh, disenfranchised.
And it's for the people that deserve to have a spot on these shelves to have their story told, to have, um, concepts like a free Palestine or a a, um, like no ice, uh, in Indianapolis and in the entire United States. An abolishment of that, uh, [00:31:00] institution alongside. Other books. I'm just, I'm just over here looking.
I'm reading the wall. Lemme just read to you every poster because it's just encompasses so much. And it's not because it's random. It's not because it's uh, we want to,
Michael Zarick: it's also not, because I also wanna highlight this is not because it's in vogue either.
Jay Grillo: Yeah. And it's
Michael Zarick: because I
Jay Grillo: think not there's a lot of things that are, that are not, uh, popular.
Michael Zarick: 'cause like obviously I think right now, like speaking out against Ice is popular.
Jay Grillo: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Um, in the eyes of the Masses. Yeah. Speaking out in Palestine is popular post.
Jay Grillo: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: 2024.
Jay Grillo: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Um,
Jay Grillo: but man, when we were here,
Michael Zarick: but you know, six years ago, this type of stuff is not as, um, I'm gonna use the word invo. I don't know where this case it is.
'cause I live Vogue near the Vogue. Oh. And the word is on the mind.
Jay Grillo: Yeah. Like I can name, uh, I could point out to you not name, but I could point out to you a couple books in here that would be unpopular now. And I could guarantee you if something. Like, uh, October [00:32:00] 7th or a Renee Good or Alex Pretti happened, um, in the future, in those realms, in those fears, whether it be anti-war or around, um, uh, gay pride or around, um, something happening with other countries like China or with, uh, North Korea or anything like that, um, I can guarantee you that it would become popular and it was already on our shelves.
Because these are things that are interconnected. I wanted to hit on that. Like these aren't just here randomly. They are with a purpose. And the purpose is that, um, it's interconnected, intersectional, the working class is spread out through all the world and throughout the country, throughout all these countries.
And, um, many countries are fighting for their own independence and for their own sovereignty and imperialism. Um, abroad is brought on by, um, the United States and the, uh, terrors of war that inflicts on other nations. And we're just here in the belly of the beast making sure [00:33:00] that people know that we are here for the people in the United States who are also affected by what's happening.
To us. And so it's not just things abroad and it's not just things here. We are focused everywhere that we can, and that's why we have all these number groups is because it's like, not just me can be in all these spaces and neither should I, there are many other people that speak better that, um, know and are more connected with more of these communities than I am.
And there's people that deserve to, um, create those spaces and to write those things down for those aspects and for those, um, pockets.
Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm. How did you get involved with the Indy Liberation Center
Jay Grillo: originally? The, the library thing.
Michael Zarick: Oh, okay. Yeah. So you just sort of like got connected at that time and it sort of
Jay Grillo: drew
Michael Zarick: you in.
Yeah.
Jay Grillo: There was a protest happening at the Central Library, and I live right next to the Central Library and I
Michael Zarick: even still,
Jay Grillo: yeah, okay. I still live in the same apartment. Um, and I was like, well, [00:34:00] it's a December, and it was 2022, and it was a cold December. And I go out there and I'm just like, wait, I'm connecting the dots.
I've seen some of these people before. I saw them at the Roe v Wade thing. I saw them, um, for, uh, various other stuff that's happening in the city. Protests mostly, and, uh, black Lives Matter protests in 2020. Like, I've, I've seen these people around, but how do I get involved, you know? And so, um, I show up to, um, which one of the, or, uh, groups here hosts, uh, the, what they call a liberation forum educational forum, which I actually spoke at our last one about, uh, being anti-war and how war is also a women's issue.
And, um, I, I don't remember what the topic was for the one I joined, but that's what hooked me is a liberation forum. And it was at our first building. Um, which wasn't the building, it was a little office closet that happened to [00:35:00] be in an office building that happened to have sometimes open.
Michael Zarick: I actually think you
Jay Grillo: thinking know what I'm talking about.
Michael Zarick: I worked a, so I worked a big game market mm-hmm. For the DSA once. Yeah. And you guys were right next to us. Yeah. And I talked to you guys and it was like, oh, the Indy Liberation Center. And I was like, I was like, you guys have a spot. Oh. And they're like, yeah, we have an office. And I was like, oh, the, the Liberation Center has like a center.
Yes. They were like, yeah, we do. And I thought it was really funny. And then you got this space. Yeah. Which is way more of a center if we're being honest.
Jay Grillo: No, for sure.
Michael Zarick: Um, that's why we got it. Um, and I just thought that was, uh, pretty funny. But I also want to draw back to this idea of you mentioned seeing the same people show up.
Jay Grillo: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Uh, and I think when you talk about community organizing and you talk about how to pull people to your side. Showing up is like the first [00:36:00] step of that.
Jay Grillo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Zarick: Uh, and when you show up consistently and you show people that you're there, uh, you're there for the right reason.
Jay Grillo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Zarick: You're there with, um, genuine intent and you are clearly present and recognizable.
I think that is how you pull in people. Yeah. Like Jay Grillo, uh, to be like, Hey, do you wanna come over? Let's, let's talk about like what it means to continue organizing. Yeah. And that's how you grow your, whatever movement you have, whether it's like, uh, growing your coffee shop or growing your, like political movement.
I think showing up with intent.
Jay Grillo: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Being present and like having conversation and inviting people over is the best way to, to find success.
Jay Grillo: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Is that the best way to say that?
Jay Grillo: Yeah, I, I agree. The, um, humble beginnings of the first center. Um, to actually the previous place, 'cause this is the third [00:37:00] iteration.
It, it pays dividends when you show up consistently when you are there with genuine intent. And also when you kind of know how to weed through the mess. There is always gonna be, um, difficulties when organizing with people who come from all different backgrounds because not everyone's gonna agree on every single thing, and neither do we expect that.
Um, and so when we try to make things happen, it's, it is with the best intent and it's important that. Um, at the end of the day, it, that shows more than an established, um, kind of moniker of a name. Like, I would hate for the center to be seen as this. Like, oh, it's just them, the center, they have it covered.
They'll, they'll be fine. When it is truly just all volunteers here and we are all, are just trying our best and, uh, we do fail. And that's no different [00:38:00] than in the arts community. Like, people are gonna make stuff and try their best and fail. Um, you're gonna see that on the performance stage. Like yesterday, I like forgetting my steps or forgetting where we're supposed to go or tripping or having a wardrobe malfunction that you just couldn't see beforehand.
Um, you can make that analogy for organizing as well, that like, there's gonna be stuff that goes wrong and as long as you're, you're there consistently. Both with your messaging, um, this being, uh, a space that, um, hosts stuff like, uh, answer Indiana, which is, um, act now to Stop War and End RA racism or the PSL, the party for socialism and, and liberation or all the way to, uh, TGI, which is touch Grass Indy.
I didn't know that. Like you have, you have, uh, all these different,
Michael Zarick: What is touch Grass Indy?
Jay Grillo: I can tell you about it. Uh, but basically all these different groups, um, of everyone trying to do, uh, their thing and their direction as the center hosts that, but also pushes towards those directions as well.
[00:39:00] It's, um, it takes a group effort and takes a lot of organization and I'm very proud of everyone to make this new iteration, and I'm excited to see what the future has for it. As well as I am excited to see where the dance group goes and where friends like Sammy Penaloza go in their art career. It's all.
It's all connected in the same way. And all I'd say I have the same passion for all of it, including TGI co. So let's, let's, I need to
Michael Zarick: know
Jay Grillo: a tgi, let's, let's, let's pivot to this. It's awesome. And, um, it should, the, the person who leads it right now should be your a, a guest for you. So, um, it started as a study group here.
Uh, it was studying, um, climate conditions under capital or, what's that book? No, what's that called? Climate.
Michael Zarick: Climate Solutions
Jay Grillo: Solutions. Climate Solutions Under Capitalism.
Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.
Jay Grillo: Or without that, how does it go? This guy
Michael Zarick: can't even talk on
Jay Grillo: it. I just, I knew it's a book over there. Um, climate, uh, climate [00:40:00] Solutions and, and subtitle, uh, climate Solutions study book, uh, study group was mm-hmm.
Studying this book. And we were talking about environmentalism, but how to make it more to. Practical, how to think about it from the lens of being anti imperial to talk about what can we do in Indianapolis with it, with this information. Um, and, uh, mo mostly like a, how does it work, how does environmentalism work without capitalism?
And the,
Michael Zarick: I think you, we have historical context for that.
Jay Grillo: Plenty.
Michael Zarick: Okay.
Jay Grillo: And so
Michael Zarick: just wondering
Jay Grillo: Yes, plenty. Oh yeah. And so that's where it grew out was like, well, let's do something. Let's start with block cleanups. Um, and being part of that study group to turn it into. Um, the name of the group, which it was originally, it was called Touch Grass Indy as the study group.
Then it became the group where it was hosting block cleanups at our old location to then hosting Repair Cafes where people brought in stuff that they needed repaired and [00:41:00] volunteers repaired it for them. Mm-hmm. And we'd hosted some of those at, uh, 10 East Arts. And then we also did a two gift swaps. Um, and the most recent one was here where we did a gift swap with people bringing in things that they thought would make good gifts around the holidays.
And then we got to donate. Um, all the rest that didn't get taken, but most people, when they brought something in, it got taken. It was pretty awesome. And that's Touch Grass Indy. It's led by Edith Conscious, who's also an artist and it's, uh, a pleasure to work with her on, on that.
Michael Zarick: Yeah. Dope. We're gonna move on to what I call the canned questions.
Jay Grillo: Okay.
Michael Zarick: Let's do it. I do have to read Third Space Indy is sponsored by City Rising. City Rising is a social impact studio. Most recently, they implemented an eviction data dashboard that looks to highlight and reduce the impact of the over 30,000 evictions that happen here in Indianapolis that mostly affect Black and Latina women.
If you are interested in learning more, go to cityrising.org. [00:42:00] City Rising. That's sponsored a question, which is what is a Third Space to you?
Jay Grillo: A Third Space is of course a place outside of work and home, but
Michael Zarick: drop the definition.
Jay Grillo: But it's also, it is also a place to, I think it's a place to be annoying.
Michael Zarick: Oh, that's fun. Okay.
Jay Grillo: Like, you are allowed to be a little bit annoying when you're in a Third Space, just like you are at home. Um, alone sometimes, but mostly like if you're at home as a child, you are not that annoying as, as maybe your parents think you are because you kind of, kind of subdue yourself to be like, I gotta do what parents say whatever.
Mm-hmm. And the moment you go to a Third Space as a child, you are so rowdy, so annoying, and let the kids be a little bit annoying because they don't get many spaces. But as an adult, [00:43:00] whether be roommates or your loved ones, or, um, your a spouse
Michael Zarick: mm-hmm.
Jay Grillo: Uh, or you just live alone, um, or live next to neighbors that may hear you.
Uh, it's also a place to be a little bit annoying, but mostly like in your conversations, in your loudness, whether it be, um, how you feel when you. At a bar chumming up with your friends and you're the, you're the table that everyone's looking at. 'cause you're laughing so hard. Like that's a little bit annoying.
Yeah. But good. Yeah. And I think that's what I like about Third Spaces is to be a little bit annoying. Um, it's, um, why I think
Michael Zarick: it's the first person to say anything, even in this realm. And I think it's, I think it's dope.
Jay Grillo: I I love that. Think it's
Michael Zarick: so good
Jay Grillo: because like, because, because gotta let loose a little bit and even, even, uh, politically speaking here, like, let's yell about the state of the world because it is annoying.
Shit's annoying. Let's talk about it. So I think, um, I think the Third Space is just a [00:44:00] place that you can be a little bit annoying.
Michael Zarick: Well, I even think of like, I even, so a deep part of my identity is being a summer camp counselor forever. Mm-hmm. And like when you think about, when I think about summer camp the way, not only the way I acted, but just like the way people act at summer camp, whether you're a camper or a counselor is like.
Objectively annoying. It's just like, wake up super early, have to be super peppy kids. Let's, let's like, let's go to a breakfast at breakfast. Like, uh, just already be like shouting at each other. I, there were some other counselors that I definitely like, got on their nerves just 'cause I was like, I was on it at all times.
Mm-hmm. And then like, sometimes it would be like, oh, today I'm just gonna use no silverware between eat with my hands. Just like, it's like, it's a little gross, but also, yeah. Well, it's not gross people do that, but like, in the context of summer camp when you're dirty and sweaty, it's like mm-hmm. Um,
Jay Grillo: yeah,
Michael Zarick: just like thinking about what it, what it, I think [00:45:00] annoying is a great way to phrase it.
Yeah. Did you just rip that right now? Or did you
Jay Grillo: Yeah. That's funny. I stalled to talk about the original definition of a Third Space that it clicked,
Michael Zarick: that clicked. Um, follow up to that question.
Jay Grillo: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: What is a Third Space or place that has existed for you previously?
Jay Grillo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Zarick: But no longer does.
Jay Grillo: Mm. Okay. Um, the church.
Michael Zarick: Mm.
Jay Grillo: I mean, it exists still physically.
Michael Zarick: Yeah.
Jay Grillo: But I'm, I
Michael Zarick: know what you're saying.
Jay Grillo: I'm not in,
Michael Zarick: were you raised Catholic?
Jay Grillo: No. Okay. Um, it does a whole different tangent.
Michael Zarick: Okay.
Jay Grillo: But, uh, it's, uh, I
Michael Zarick: just assumed Yes. I was like Mexican American.
Jay Grillo: Uh, most of my family extended family yeses. Okay. Then, um,
Michael Zarick: we don't have to get into it,
Jay Grillo: we don't have to get into tangent of how they became Methodist and then non, and then Protestant, like non denominational mm-hmm.
And all that stuff. But, um, the, essentially I found a lot of [00:46:00] time, found a lot of myself spending time in the church in my late teens and early adulthood. Um, both 'cause I ended up going to school to study theology. And dropped out. I like to say I'm a theology school dropout. And I also then came back to work at the church I attended at, um, as a janitor and then did youth programming with them as well as a volunteer.
And I had felt a lot of, uh, of joy from being in those spaces, but also just a lot of watching eyes in a way that I just, I don't know, I couldn't really get, find the space to speak out about the world's problems. Like I knew I needed to, and not just for myself, but for the people that I was mentoring, the students that were going through things that I knew [00:47:00] if I spoke about.
The connections of how they're going through it from maybe a political lens or just like, just a talk. Um, then it would be kind of frowned upon by some of the people in the church. There's a lot of, there's some shame, shame there. Um, but also, uh, there's like so many things that work within that setting.
Um, a lot of people are on the same page and a lot of people are doing things that are, um, for the people in some regard. Um, maybe it be like kind of, uh, I don't know, shortsighted when it comes to how the church operates, but mm-hmm. Um, food pantries, for example, big. It was a big part of the church I went to and loved that about 'em.
That was my favorite thing about them.
Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.
Jay Grillo: Is that they were willing and always able and had the resources to feed people. Yeah. And it was, it was insanely cool operation [00:48:00] my first time ever dipping my toes into any type of organizing. But what I found most, uh, uh, relieving was the shared, um, kinda, um, willingness to, to, uh, dive into uncomfortableness.
You would think that a lot of church peoples don't, even with the shame, but they're still willing to talk to you about things. No, I don't, I didn't get a lot of shutting off. I got a lot of annoying answers back to being annoying, but not a lot of, but not a lot of like, oh, I don't wanna talk to you about that ever again.
Um. Or you're, you're not allowed here ever again. It's just, just the way it went about it was a little upsetting. So I have mixed feelings clearly about the church.
Michael Zarick: Yeah.
Jay Grillo: But fond ones and those fond ones I do miss. And that's, to answer your question, [00:49:00] something I miss about a Third Space at the end. Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Great answer.
Jay Grillo: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Thank you for sharing. As my wife would make fun of me for saying, um, WI, um, I was raised Catholic.
Jay Grillo: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Um, I actually have like really decent memories of being Catholic, but I will say, you mentioned like pro like watchful eyes.
Jay Grillo: Yes.
Michael Zarick: Um, I didn't experience this, but when we lived in Arkansas, I have never met a more judgmental group of people than like southern, like bible thumping evangelists.
Yeah. Those people love to talk shit behind your back, like big, big time. Mm-hmm. Uh, so just like thinking about like being watched all the time.
Jay Grillo: Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Um,
Jay Grillo: but I, I still have never burned any bridges there. I'm proud of that.
Michael Zarick: Yeah.
Jay Grillo: I, I still get to reach out to those community members and, and, and ask them how they are or meet up with them or anything like that.
But, um, for the ones that I've stayed in contact with, but, uh, yeah, just the [00:50:00] church is not where I find myself anymore.
Michael Zarick: Definitely. Actually, I wanna say, if you were listening to this and you attend a church
Jay Grillo: mm-hmm.
Michael Zarick: Please message me because I think churches, especially here locally, I've noticed a lot of people really connect with those spaces.
Jay Grillo: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: And regardless of how I or others may feel about religion in general, like, I think there is something to be said about the community. People find
Jay Grillo: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Um, I know St. Thomas Aquinas Yes. Up in, uh, Broad Ripple. Yeah. Or I guess Meridian Kessler. I don't, something like that is a huge community
Jay Grillo: space. A couple, I got a couple churches for
Actually we have, uh, partnered with, um, uh, church over on Fall Creek to host some stuff. We did our. One of our fundraisers as a center over at, um, Broadway, Methodist. Mm-hmm. Uh, church. And they're cool. And then also our, my neighborhood association just met at Unity Church off of Delaware.
Michael Zarick: Yeah.
Jay Grillo: So, you know, they're, they are, um, still lovely places to gather.
Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm. And shout out to Pastor Greene. I don't know the name [00:51:00] of his church, but that dude is cool. Uh, and he's running for like a state, uh, rep seat I think. So that guy's Cool. So there's people in churches who do good work and are, are about the community.
Jay Grillo: Yeah. One of my favorite things to nerd out about is liberation theology lately. So, still, still a theology nerd.
Michael Zarick: No, I know, I know. Uh, some certain clips that,
Jay Grillo: uh, yes. That come to mind when, say that
Michael Zarick: come to mind when you say that. Yeah. Uh, shout out to Jeremiah Wright. Uh,
Jay Grillo: yeah,
Michael Zarick: he's nodding. Uh,
Jay Grillo: it's absolutely.
We had a a at a different forum. We had a, um, for black August, we had Pastor Jamal something, I, I forget his last name. Um, Reverend, it was not pastor. Um, he, so he spoke about Black Liberation Theology.
Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.
Jay Grillo: Um, and that was my first introduction to the concept of liberation theology almost three years ago.
I don't, but I filmed the thing and it [00:52:00] was, it was honored to do that. He's a local, um, uh, church leader here, so
Michael Zarick: That's cool.
Jay Grillo: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Okay. You should, we should, I'll look back at this.
Jay Grillo: Yes, yes.
Michael Zarick: Uh,
Jay Grillo: there's many. Do your, uh, I'll, I'll do my homework on this as well and, and send you all the things I talked about.
Michael Zarick: Um, every episode I like to ask a question from the previous guest. Yeah. My previous guest was this morning. Yes. And I mentioned to her earlier, Carla Lopez Owens Yes. Running for county clerk here in Marion County.
Jay Grillo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Zarick: Uh, she asks, which is, I, I'm so glad she asked. 'cause you're, you kind of already mentioned it, but, um.
How are you using your privilege
Jay Grillo: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: To affect the world around you in a positive way?
Jay Grillo: Yes. I did kind of already mention it. Um, I am able
Michael Zarick: to, what do you perceive, first of all, like what do you perceive your priv privilege as?
Jay Grillo: Uh, white passing can speak English. Um, has all [00:53:00] documents that I would need. I am a born American citizen.
Um, have family that loves me and supports me and, um, most of my traumas aren't debilitating, uh, enough for me to, um, like I've done a lot of therapy with them, so I've, I've moved towards progress. Mm-hmm. That allows me to be more, um, capable mentally, but also I'm, uh, I don't have any physical, uh, disabilities either.
And so I recognize those. All, all, all the time. Um, because they aren't, that's not the same with a lot of people that I interact with. And so, um, able to use that to make my voice be heard in a way that allows me to speak for the people that I'm speaking about, whether it be through my art, um, through documenting people or through spotlight stuff or getting on this [00:54:00] stage and talking about, um, how war is a woman's issue.
Like it's, it's all, um, through this posture of, of knowing that I have the privilege to, the knowledge to, and the capability to, um, do all these things. And I also have a lot of freedom within the work I do to be flexible. Uh, and then I get to be in a lot of spaces. So if there, we have to do. If we have to be somewhere as organizers here in the middle of the day when people have a workday and they can't make it, or they're tired from, uh, just being, uh, having these long hours at work throughout the week that they're just like, dude, I cannot do anything this weekend at whatever protest you're trying to do.
I do not care. Um, it's like, well, I'll care for you, like at least let me tell you about it a little bit. Let's have this conversation. I have some time. Um, and also having enough of a network of friends and, and connections and [00:55:00] fellow artists and organizers that make, uh, me, um, proud to be around, but also can pull from and be like, Hey, uh, you need this.
I know someone over here that has it. Let's get things rolling. Um, and uh, that's having that network is a also a privilege as well. So, um. I try to use all those to my abilities, all the best of my abilities, the best of, of, uh, the needs of people. Um, that's, I think that's how I use that privilege, if that makes sense.
Because like it's privilege is broad. Um, so, and like being in front of an English speaking crowd, when we're about to do some Mexican dancing, I will be speaking English, uh, for on be on, be on behalf of the group. Um, so it's, it's uh, it's all connected in that way, you know, [00:56:00] so there's many privileges that I have that I like to, um, remember that I can use.
It motivates me actually to continue to do things, whether it be artistically or as an organizer.
Michael Zarick: Yeah. Yeah. I mentioned this on the previous episode, but I recently got my. Driver's license.
Jay Grillo: Yes.
Michael Zarick: Um, and I was sitting down talking to the person who was assisting me and a woman sat down next to me who was there for her driving test.
Jay Grillo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Zarick: Did not speak a lick of English. Mm-hmm. And just watching her interact with the worker at the BMV was like really eye-opening in a lot of ways, whereas like, oh my God, like I moved through the world so easily. Um, versus her who's like just there to get her driver's test.
Jay Grillo: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Just wants to like get it done and like go home probably.
But is like having a struggle just with a minor interaction that she can is probably a perfectly capable driver, but like, just to get to the point [00:57:00] where she is showing her driving ability
Jay Grillo: mm-hmm.
Michael Zarick: Is a struggle. Yeah. And I think that even that simple interaction was a, a huge highlight to me. Yeah.
Jay Grillo: I was at the library printing some stuff and this girl.
I, shouldn. Couldn't have been 12. More than 12. All her friends were at the computers, we're all at the computers, but all her friends were at the computers playing Roblox at
Michael Zarick: the library.
Jay Grillo: At the library
Michael Zarick: Classic
Jay Grillo: after it was like spring break. So they're, they're like, it's the middle of the day again. Um, library.
One of my favorite places to be a little bit annoying is, uh, they, all, her friends were playing Roblox, but she was trying to find her mom a new apartment and just, she's just like, yeah, she's basically talking to the, to, she had a couple of different phone calls, but all the phone calls, I'm like, dude, just this, this girl is grown up too fast already.
All her friends probably do not know what's happening. And it's, it's, uh, disheartening but also [00:58:00] made me recognize like I, I would be her friends playing Roblox and totally not understanding what her, what my friends going through until I'm an adult. And, um, that is difficult to reconcile with, but also she's who I think of when I go out in the world and try to do any good at all.
Um, same with, uh, the, um, the pri privilege of having a car. I thought about this the other day 'cause um, uh, you had mentioned like, when you're trying to go driveless for, what'd you say? You're trying to not drive for like a
Michael Zarick: Oh, yesterday? Yeah. I'm, I'm doing a, like a drive. I'm calling it drive-less Challenge.
Driveless, not Driveless.
Jay Grillo: Okay. Driveless.
Michael Zarick: Yeah. Um, with a friend of mine, her name's Andrea Watts. Yeah. Um, and yesterday my friend Alexa Adamson, who owns Alley Cat Ceramics Yes. Yes. Needed me to pick her [00:59:00] up.
Jay Grillo: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Uh, it was like across the city and I was like, oh my God.
Jay Grillo: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Um,
Jay Grillo: yeah, that's a, so I have. All of last year, it was my New Year's resolution to go in a, a full week without needing to drive.
Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.
Jay Grillo: It was so difficult. It was so difficult. Um, but then that reminded me, seeing that post of yours reminded me that I, like it is hard to get around without a car in a very car-centric city. And so the privilege of, of having a car, I just got a new car and the car that I had before I had it for 13 years is the car I had my entire life since I was 16.
And I ran it to the ground. And my, my main, my main stipulation for this vehicle, new vehicle had to be that all the seats laid flat. Because I know, I know that my, there's many friends of mine that do not have vehicles.
Michael Zarick: Yeah.
Jay Grillo: And many of friends of mine that do not have vehicles need to move things.
Michael Zarick: Yeah.
Jay Grillo: And so I [01:00:00] would like to do that with my car. And um, that's another point of privilege that I am glad to, to utilize for the betterment of people that don't have the same thing. 'cause I can be a resource in that way.
Michael Zarick: Definitely. I was planning to drive today. I wanna pat myself on the back. I was planning to drive today.
Jay Grillo: Biked. Biked
Michael Zarick: today. The, not only did I bike today, uh, speaking of the Driveless challenge. Yes. I was planning to drive. I met Karla. I met Karla in Irvington at Ellenberger Park.
Jay Grillo: Okay.
Michael Zarick: We are now in Fountain Square. So I rode my bike from Broad Ripple to Irvington. That's 11 miles.
Jay Grillo: And then,
Michael Zarick: then I
Jay Grillo: back here,
Michael Zarick: went to lunch actually.
Oh,
Jay Grillo: nice.
Michael Zarick: Uh, in cottage home. So that was back about a quarter of the way.
Jay Grillo: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: And then came here afterwards.
Jay Grillo: Nice.
Michael Zarick: Uh, and I don't know, I haven't decided if I'm biking back or if I'm riding the bus mm-hmm. I'll probably ride the bus. We'll see. Um, but thinking about, um, how much more I had to [01:01:00] plan ahead, um, I left substantially earlier than I would've had to this morning.
Um, if I, if I were to drive, 'cause it was like 20 minutes to my initial thing, um, at Ellenberger, um, versus riding an hour on my bike, getting great exercise 'cause I need it.
Jay Grillo: Uh, do you track all that somehow?
Michael Zarick: No, I probably should, should, but that's okay.
Jay Grillo: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: But my wife used to always say, if it didn't happen on Strava, it didn't happen at all.
Jay Grillo: I, I've ran a couple of marathons. It's still true.
Michael Zarick: Yeah. Um, very true. But, and then just like thinking, but I was, I felt comfortable. Like it, we live in Indianapolis, which is one of the flattest places probably on earth.
Jay Grillo: Mm-hmm.
Michael Zarick: Uh, and just like being able to have the infrastructure we do, which is actually semi recent.
Jay Grillo: Yes.
Michael Zarick: Not a little bit, uh, older than my tenure here.
Jay Grillo: [01:02:00] Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Um, it's pretty easy to get around. I've moved here in October, 2024.
Jay Grillo: Oh, cool.
Michael Zarick: Yeah. So not that long.
Jay Grillo: Yeah. Nice.
Michael Zarick: Uh, and then having like this our, our fairly decent bus system, um, and just knowing that there are ways to move around the city safely, um, without a car mm-hmm.
Has been very enlightening and doing the drive less challenge. It's pretty fun.
Jay Grillo: Yes.
Michael Zarick: Drive less.
Jay Grillo: Drive less.
Michael Zarick: And I'm gonna make, I'm, I'm getting that lunch. That's, that's what I know.
Jay Grillo: Yes, yes, yes.
Michael Zarick: All right, Jay? Yes. One last question.
Jay Grillo: Yep.
Michael Zarick: And then we'll wrap up.
Jay Grillo: Cool.
Michael Zarick: What question
Jay Grillo: do I have for the next person?
Michael Zarick: Would you like to ask the next Third Space Indy guest?
Jay Grillo: Um, do I get to know who the guest is? No.
Michael Zarick: The, the question is, do I know who the, know who the guest is? Answer, no, not the question. No, that's what I'm saying is the answer is I don't think I know at this time.
Jay Grillo: Okay. Let me think. The question I'd like to ask the [01:03:00] next guest is, I wanna stick with this annoying theme a little bit.
Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.
Jay Grillo: Where is the, where is the, Hmm. I can't decide if it's gonna be the best place or the worst place where
here's where I'm coming from. I want to think about something that's where someone has felt their most unashamedly themselves. And I want it to feel allowed and cinematic. And I want to know where that was. And I want to ask it in a way of like, where were you most, where were you, where were you your most annoying, and why?
Michael Zarick: Parentheses
Jay Grillo: positive parentheses, and why was it the best thing ever?
Michael Zarick: Okay. I accept.
Jay Grillo: Where were [01:04:00] you the most annoying, and why was it the best thing ever?
Michael Zarick: Great question.
Jay Grillo: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Cool. Uh, Jay Grillo, thank you for coming on the podcast.
Jay Grillo: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: If you want to be found, where can the people find you?
Jay Grillo: People can find me at Jay Grillo, which is J-A-Y-G-R-I-L-L-O on everywhere.
And also if it works, Jay Grillo.com
Michael Zarick: if it works,
Jay Grillo: which just goes to my link tree, but it just, it's everything. Um, everything from the Art Collective to the Liberation Center, to the, um, artists. I've done, uh, artist stuff I've done to the organizing things that I've done with like TGI and everything. I'm looking around this room right now to, to, trying to think of anything else like dancing.
Um, this interview, it'll all be there and everything that you get to know about the people that I care about will be there too.
Michael Zarick: Mm. And the Indy Liberation Center, I can read the [01:05:00] address, so I'm just gonna say it myself. 1619 Prospect Street?
Jay Grillo: Yep.
Michael Zarick: Prospect Street. Yep. Okay. But also like Indy Liberation Center on Instagram.
Jay Grillo: Yes. Indy Liberation Center on Instagram, and then Indy liberation center.org as well.
Michael Zarick: You got it.
Jay Grillo: Yeah.
Michael Zarick: Hey, thanks for watching or listening to this episode of Third Space Indy. You can find me at Third Space Indy on Instagram or by going to Third Space Indy dot com.
Thank you for City Rising, or thank you to City Rising as always. Response from the podcast and to Proformus, Proformus and urban planning and design firm that helps neighbors and communities shape the places they already love based in Indianapolis.
They're here to help you make your place happen one block at a time.
Jay Grillo: Nice.
Michael Zarick: Shout out to, uh, Mark Latta and Jeffrey Tompkins. Thank you for sponsoring the podcast. And as always, thank you to the local artist Jennasen for letting me use your song. Scared Rabbit as the intro music.
Jay Grillo: Goodbye. Shout.
[01:06:00]
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