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• Jesse Brown

Third Space Indy is supported by:

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Episode Summary

Jesse Brown is a City-County Councilor for District 13 on Indianapolis' Near East Side and one of the loudest progressive voices in local government. Recorded live at Patina Art Gallery & Alley Cat Ceramic Studio in front of a crowd for Third Space Indy's one-year anniversary, Michael sits down with Jesse to talk about his unlikely path from punk anarchist to elected official, the frustrations of fighting a rubber-stamp city council, and why a better world is actually possible.

Sponsors:

City Rising (cityrising.org)

Proformus Urban Planning & Design

Intro music: Scared Rabbit by Jennasen

Timestamps

0:51 — Welcome & sponsors (live at Patina Art Gallery & Alley Cat)

3:03 — Happy birthday, Third Space Indy

5:32 — Introducing Jesse Brown

6:32 — Who is Jesse Brown?

9:49 — Pike Township to Irvington

11:52 — Cathedral High School and dreadlocks

13:55 — Turning down Princeton

15:28 — The Sam Masarikia Scholarship

17:00 — Teaching

19:52 — Salting at the Westin Hotel

25:08 — On Burnout

28:13 — Late Intro

30:52 — How local government fails to build community

37:26 — What is a third space to you?

40:33 — A third space that no longer exists

42:22 — If you were a plant, what plant would you be?

44:15 — Q&A: How do you grow good villagers in a third space?

49:33 — Q&A: What's missing from leftist organizing in Indianapolis?

54:21 — Q&A: Cronyism and city contracts

1:02:09 — Q&A: How do you actually follow through?

1:06:01 — Q&A: What's giving you hope today?

1:06:45 — Q&A: Is Indiana any closer to legalizing marijuana?

1:10:34 — The Socialist Party of Indiana and building a new ballot line

1:15:42 — Where to find Jesse Brown

Episode Transcript

Jesse Brown

Jesse Brown: [00:00:00] Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday- ... to you. Happy Birthday Third Space Indy. Happy birthday to you.

Jesse Brown: I feel good. How do you feel?

Michael Zarick: Uh, hello everyone. Yeah, wait, actually I have to project because we don't have any voice amplification, and I know Jesse Brown's also good at that. Um- Also, I should be speaking into the microphone. Fair. Uh, is it recording? Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay. Um You're the editor. Yeah, that's true.

Uh, hello everyone. Thank you so much for coming out. Um, I had

a [00:01:00] thing. Wait.

First of all, I just wanna get the sponsors out of the way, um, so then we don't have to do it later. Um, the first person I'd like to thank is Alexa Adamson. Where's Alex- oh, look, it's Anderson York. Mr. Mayor, good to see you. Did Alexa disappear?

She did? Uh... Is she hidden? Alexa. She's right here. Oh, there you are. Okay. I don't know who I'm yelling at. Do you wanna come up and tell the people about where we are?

Jesse Brown: Despite wearing your invisibility cloak, apparently Yeah.

Alexa Adamson: I know, right?

Michael Zarick: I know. I was like-

Alexa Adamson: Um, hi, everybody. Thank you for being here to support our sweet friend Michael and his podcast.

Alexa Adamson: Why not? Um, yeah. So we're at Patina and Alley Cat. Um, Patina is an art gallery, um, that tries to highlight, um, different types of artists.

We really wanna focus on 3D arts, people of color, um, LGBT artists, uh, and women. Oh, I'm so sorry. Can you hear me better this way? Yeah, you're great. No worries. Oh, [00:02:00] thanks. Um, so yeah, um, that is our mission, is to kind of elevate those voices, making sure that they're heard and supported. Um, and then Alley Cat is a ceramic studio where we try and focus on just making it a more accessible art form.

Um, so we do classes and workshops and have memberships and things like that. Um, so yeah, we're just hanging out.

Michael Zarick: Perfect.

Alexa Adamson: Thank you.

Michael Zarick: Yeah. Yeah. Whoo. I also wanna say that, um, if you... We'll talk about what a third space is or third place is in a moment, but, um, for me, like Alley Cat and Patina Art Gallery is absolutely my third space or place.

Um, and it means a lot that she's allowing me to be here for free. Let's go. Woo-hoo. Woo. Uh, then I have, like other sponsors. Let me... The laptop will go away. Uh, hey, thanks to City Rising. City Ri- I'm not looking at anyone specific. City Rising is a social impact studio. Most recently, they implemented an eviction data dashboard that looks to highlight and reduce the impact of the 30,000 evictions, [00:03:00] mostly affecting Black and Latina women, Indianapolis faces every year.

Jesse Brown: And children.

Michael Zarick: And children, especially. Um, so learn more at cityrising.org. And also shout out to Proformus, um, and my good friend Jeffrey Tompkins. Proformus is an urban planning and design firm that helps neighbors and communities shape the places they already love. Based in Indianapolis, they're here to help make your place happen one block at a time.

Woo. Woo. Uh, that's it. So let's get to the show. Yay. Oh, wait, I forgot the, there's an intro. Uh, I don't normally do an intro, but, uh, if you didn't know this, as of yesterday, uh, Third Space Indy is one year old. Woo! Yeah. Yeah. Pump, pump. Uh, and, um, so I don't know if Jesse Brown knows this, but I moved to Indianapolis in October 2024.

Uh, and I was laid off from my job, uh, January 2025, so like three months later. Um, and I didn't know a lot of people. And, uh, I was thinking [00:04:00] about, like, what I wanted to do, and at one point I was like, "I wanna become a politician." Uh, Which is, uh, a goofy thing to think, I think. Um-

Jesse Brown: Do it.

Michael Zarick: Yeah. Jesse Brown's been pushing me.

Um, but I reached out, uh, in early February to be like, "Hey, uh, the most effective politician I could find was the one that got kicked out of his caucus." "Uh, would you like to meet me for coffee?" And, um, I think in a lot of ways, like, Jesse Brown opened up my world to Indianapolis. He connected me with a ton of people.

Um, he's the person who connected me with Mark Latta, who now sponsors the podcast, and was my second guest. Um, and has done, like, such an amazing job of bringing me into Indianapolis. Um, and- Uh, yeah. Thanks, man. Yeah. So- That's really

Jesse Brown: sweet.

Michael Zarick: Yeah. So, uh, and since I met you, like you ... I, I wrote this down, but I'm sort of winging it.

Um, but since I met you, you continue to impress me, um, as somebody who embodies what [00:05:00] I believe it means to be, like, a true public servant. Um, you represent what I perceive as Christian values that were taught to me as a child. I think you sacrifice yourself, mind, body, and spirit, um, for everyone you serve here in the community.

Um, and from the dre- I wrote this, I think it's fun. From the dregs of the corporate halls of Angie's List- ... to being the loud voice of the people of the Near East Side and beyond. Yeah. Um, it is my pleasure to share today's guest, Jesse Brown. Yeah.

Jesse Brown: That might be the kindest intro anyone's ever given me. Wow.

Thanks, man.

Michael Zarick: Yeah, normally they just call you a dirty communist and move on. Yeah. Also true, but, like... Um, um, before we actually start today, I do wanna define two words. Um, they both end in ism. Um, so the two words are capitalism and commu- or not communism, socialism. Um, and the, the, the, the suffix of ism just means system.[00:06:00]

Um, so when you talk about capitalism, that is a system of capital, of money-making, uh, things that serve the interests of creating capital. Um, and we talk about the ism of socialism, that means the ism of social dynamics of people. Um, how do you create a world that serves people? Um, and I just wanted to throw those two definitions out because I think it's really important, and I suspect we might use those words- throughout the podcast.

Jesse Brown: Never used either word in my life. How dare you?

Michael Zarick: Never. Um, so for anybody who may not know who you are, Jesse, can you let our audience know... Also, can everyone hear us? Am I speaking loudly enough? Yes. That's, that's important. Um, for anyone who may not know who you are, can you let our audience know who you are?

Jesse Brown: Awesome, sure. Well, uh, after that great intro, um, I'm gonna sell myself short, hopefully- ... compared to that. But, uh, no, I'll, I'll try to go above it and, and just lie. So I'm Jesse Brown. Uh, I am a first-time politician who just got elected [00:07:00] in 2023, serving for 2024 through the end of 2027, and hopefully beyond.

Next year you'll get the chance if you live around here to, to determine that. Um, I'm a city county counselor for District 13, which goes from, like, Delaware to Emerson, roughly Washington to 21st Street. I live up at 20th and Riley, like the very northeast corner of the district. Uh, but again, I go all the way downtown, so the Near Eastside has a lot of different people with a lot of different income levels, ethnicities, uh, histories in the neighborhood or relatively, you know, newcomers, carpetbaggers, like Michael Zarick, just playing.

Uh, but yeah, so my job on the city council, obviously, is to be the ultimate dictator of this district. I hand-dig out every pothole in the streets- ... and it's all my fault. Uh, no, it's actually the legislation, uh, or the legislature of Indianapolis is a 25-person body. There are no at-large counselors anymore.

Republicans decided that was too annoying for them, and so they changed the law to stop that from happening. Um, 25 [00:08:00] people at the council. We are the fiscal body for the city, $1.7 billion budget, and yet the council seems to believe that their job is actually just to rubber stamp what the mayor wants to do.

So, uh, during my brief time so far in politics, I have mostly been fighting against that concept, fighting against, um... You know, I, I ran under the slogan I stole from AOC, A Better World is Possible, because I've lived in the city my whole life. I bought my house when I was 22 in 2008 when they were handing out mortgages in Cracker Jack boxes, and I noticed, like, I still don't have streetlights.

I don't st- I still don't have, uh, sidewalks. You know, people are still, like, dying deaths of despair in my neighborhood, 46218 zip code, where I live. When is that gonna change? We've had a super majority Democrats in charge. I always thought it was the Republicans who were the bad guys. Why aren't we- things getting better?

And so I kinda count myself on a mission to figure out, right? And try to pull people out from behind the curtains and just talk in public about this, uh, which has not made me very popular among politicos. How's that for an intro? Too long?

Michael Zarick: I was like, dang, uh, you could've [00:09:00] kept going. first question, bounc- bouncing off that, uh, you'll think this is funny probably, but who's gonna do it?

Who's gonna do it? Yeah. Oh, that's a great question. We're all talking about it, aren't we? You know? Who- It seems clear someone. It seems clear someone.

Oh, yeah?

Jesse Brown: Uh, Father Time perhaps. Mm. Um, but yeah. You know, it's, uh, it's definitely- ... definitely coming, I believe.

Michael Zarick: Yeah. Who's- Yeah. Who, who? Um, so the first thing I wanna talk about, because I, I consider you a really good friend, but I actually don't know a lot about your history as a person, and I think many people here-

Jesse Brown: International man of mystery.

Michael Zarick: I read that you were a teacher once. True. Um, so can you walk me through, like- your time pre-Angie's List and then during Angie's List, and like maybe what, like made you wanna throw away the life of sending emails for a living.

Jesse Brown: Yeah, yeah. I had it all, right? I gave it all up. Um, so I was actually born in New Jersey.

Uh, my parents got divorced when I was two, came back with my mom to where she was from, which was Indiana. Lived in Pike [00:10:00] Township with my mom and my very Republican grandparents, uh, for a few years growing up. But when she could afford her own place, she moved to the, uh, near East Side, specifically Irvington.

That's where I wanted to buy my house. I could not afford to buy my house, even in 2008 when things were super cheap there. Um, so I got to see a lot of, um, the class divide growing up, right? My grandparents were fairly well off. They had made it rich, uh, owning liquor stores and in the insurance industry.

Very noble professions, uh, that have a lot of honor associated. Um, and so that's of course why they deserved all of these material gains, right? My mom was super hardworking single mom and, and struggled really hard. Uh, but I was super lucky and really good at standardized tests, so I went to Catholic grade school as a non-Catholic.

Uh, Our Lady of Lourdes in Irvington. Mm-hmm. Um, got into Cathedral High School, which is a super preppy... I just saw on IBJ, it's the, uh, largest private school in central Indiana, actually. Oh,

Michael Zarick: really?

Jesse Brown: Um, yeah, and most expensive, uh, still, I believe. Park Tudor might have us beat. Yeah, Park Tudor, I think. Most expensive Catholic school.

Um, suck it, [00:11:00] Chatard. Uh-

Michael Zarick: Yeah, do you know what the price is?

Jesse Brown: Oh, boy. I just was looking it... No, they, they had, uh, did not disclose. But they did say that if you're a senior you have to pay an extra $1,000 over the do not disclose amount. So I thought that was really helpful and useful to put in a newspaper.

Um, when I was there it was, I think, 8 or $9,000 a year. Uh, and remember- Mine was similar ... I'm, I'm old, so 2000 to 2004. Um, but I got in for free. So I got 100% full ride on scholarships, and so was kind of the poor kid at the rich kid school, the non-Catholic kid at the Catholic school. So I got to see a lot of these, like divides growing up.

And, um, reacted to that by becoming just like kind of a, at least a punk ass, maybe a punk, depending on who you ask. Um, so I was like a straight A student, national merit scholar, uh, but I had dreadlocks down to my shoulders. I was a straight edge vegan. Uh, I was my same height as I am today, but 147 pounds.

Uh, so imagine me like 75 pounds lighter, so string bean. Um, w- you know, listened to Rage Against the Machine aggressively. Uh- I just [00:12:00] need to pause real... Like, I'm learning so much right now. There are photos, and they, and I look worse than you would think.

Michael Zarick: Well, white dude with dreads. Yeah. Like, classic. Yeah.

Jesse Brown: It, it was a real move. Yeah. So you know, considered myself an anarchist back then, and could like quote political philosophy at you, and talked about why the government was never to be trusted, which makes it pretty ironic that I now serve in the government. Uh, but I don't disagree. Like, uh, uh, like now that I'm in the government I'm like, "Yes, I was correct.

They shouldn't be." Um- But yeah, so like I remember I was a sophomore in high school when 9/11 happened, and I was actually in the middle of taking a standardized test. So the first time I knew anything had happened was when our assistant principal came over the intercom and said, "Due to the events on the East Coast, the school is on lockdown.

Say a prayer for our country." Wow. And like literally with no context. So, uh, all the other, you know, 16, 17-year-old guys in the room were like, "We're going to war. Oh, shit," you know? And you know, they weren't totally wrong. Um, so I remember, like I went to Washington, DC with my mom to march against the Iraq War before it even [00:13:00] started.

So I was like a big time lefty back then. But, you know, e- especially at Cathedral High School, I had a couple friends who agreed with me on my politics and 99% of people were like, "You crazy evil commie. Like you sh- you're not even American. If you don't like it, you should get out," was the phrase back then.

Michael Zarick: I think they're still saying that to you.

Jesse Brown: They kinda are, but- Yeah ... but now there are fewer people, uh, putting a yellow ribbon on their car and totally agreeing with it. Mm. So, um, I've always been like pretty outspoken and confident in my leftist, uh, politics, but I just didn't think that that was popular.

And so, you know, did a lot of stuff. Um, after high school I didn't wanna be part of the ivory tower elite, man. So, uh, my mom will still bring this up to me, but, uh, she opened my mail one day to find out that I had an unsolicited full ride offer to Princeton, uh, that I was like, "No, I don't wanna be part of that system."

So I moved out on my own and worked at a pizza place instead. Uh-

Michael Zarick: Wait, what's the pizza place?

Jesse Brown: It was Marco's Pizza at 12th and Arlington. Okay. Doesn't exist anymore. Oh, okay. Uh, it was great though. [00:14:00] Handmade crust. Worth going to if you can find one still open. Um, yeah, so I moved in with a roommate of mine who had dropped out of Purdue after a year.

Um, the two of us had a $450 a month apartment, and I was like, "Yeah, now I'm living like a regular common person. This is great." And then after like a month of paying bills, I was like, "No. Actually, the ivory tower sucks, but so does this." And so, uh, put myself through IUPUI. Um, paid my own way there.

Thankfully, um, I got to take advantage of the one nice thing my biological dad ever did for me, uh, which was not make any money ever. So since I lived on my own, uh, I was forced on my FAFSA to put at least one of my parents' income down. I was like, "But neither are providing me any aid whatsoever. I'm totally paying all my own bills."

They're like, "Doesn't matter. You're under 25. You have to put one down." I was like, "Well, which one?" They're like, "Well, which one did you spend the most time at?" I was like, "I visited my dad one weekend and stayed over at his house. I haven't done that at my mom's, so my dad." And so his $0 income, uh, [00:15:00] helped me get some financial aid to go to IUPUI.

Um- Anyway, yeah, went to IUPUI, uh, majored in cultural anthropology because I found the coolest scholarship in the world. If anybody knows somebody going into IU Indy, uh, they should look into this. It's the Sam Masarikia Scholarship. Um, also, if you can't tell, I will talk for six straight hours-

Michael Zarick: No, no, I

Jesse Brown: think-

Michael Zarick: and

Jesse Brown: never give you a chance, so.

Michael Zarick: Is anybody, like, uh, I'm in, uh, enamored right now. If you start talking, I'll just, like, slap the mic out of your hand.

Jesse Brown: Um, Sam Masarikia Scholarship, though, is an organizing scholarship. Sam was a steelworker who became a business agent and an organizer for the steelworkers, but was also just a working-class dude.

And so he, his income went up as he, uh, you know, gained success in his union, but he still lived in the house he bought in the '70s, didn't ever upgrade his furniture, didn't have kids, you know, so just, like, had a nest egg at the end. And he was like, "Man, you know, like, I feel like people aren't learning how to be organizers anymore.

Maybe I could help with that." So he created an endowment that pays full-ride [00:16:00] tuition and books for IUI students, and the downside is you have to intern with labor, community, or senior organiz- organizing, uh, organizations basically, uh, and learn how to be a better organizer, and there's classes you have to take to learn to be a better organizer as well.

So I was like, "Oh, what a horrible downside." Like, this is actually the most interesting stuff I'm doing in school. Um, but at the time, what I thought I wanted to be was a teacher, and they've since changed this, so if you want to be a teacher, you can still get the Masarikia Scholarship, but at the time, you had to get a liberal arts school degree.

And so I couldn't get an education major, so I decided to get cultural anthropology 'cause I liked the classes the most. Um, and immediately... Well, actually, I got a work study job while I was in school working at a charter school, uh, The Met, the Indianapolis Metropolitan Career Academy, which got rebranded Indianapolis Met High School.

Goodwill runs it. Uh, it's in Haughville. Uh, evil. It is a place of evil. It was my dream job for, like, three and a half years, but even then, I was under organizing scholarships, so people were like, "Charter school? You're gonna need to organize if you're there. Try to get a union [00:17:00] going." And so I did. I tried to.

At the time, the teachers, the state teachers union, ISTA, was not interested in organizing charter schools. They were interested only in destroying all charter schools. Maybe they were right, but it was a little frustrating from my perspective 'cause I had, like, an organizing committee ready to go, and they were like, "No, we're not gonna give you resources until after you win your election."

I was like, "Well, that... Okay. So then o- once we're paying our dues, sure." Um- Burned me out really badly. Uh, it went from this awesome school where students, like, learned how to, uh, like, y- you do internships two days a week. So you'd go out into the community, like, work in a nurse's office, and figure out, like, "Oh, is this a career I would want?

'Cause if so, now that's your motivation to go back and take your classes for the pre-reqs. And if not, pick a different internship so that you know what you're working towards." 'Cause I think they were correct and, and I was, even as a National Merit Scholar, I was like, "School is stupid. What is this preparing me for?

I don't wanna go." Um, so I really liked it. One day, uh, we got news back from Scott Bess, our school superintendent, who's now, like, uh, I forget what his actual position is with the [00:18:00] organization, but it's a pro-charter school statewide lobbying organization. Uh, so that was my school superintendent who I have personal experience with.

The dude sucks. Uh, come fight me, Scott. Don't edit this. How dare you edit this. Anyway, one day he said, "Well, look, like, we need Republicans at the State House to have our backs, otherwise our school gets shut down, and they are having it tr- having trouble having our backs because our test scores are low."

And all of us teachers were like, "Well, right. Our model is, like, you know, we're out in the community. We're not focused on test scores." He's like, "That model just changed. Now we're doing test prep." And so I watched attendance plummet, like morale plummet, a bunch of students who had been, like, you know, had been held back before and were like, "Okay, Mr.

Jesse, I really like the school. We're gonna try to make it work," just dropped out. So I'm just watching this destroying kids' lives as our test scores on paper look better. And so it was super demoralizing. Um, w- they, they cut our health insurance, uh, tripled the rates that we had to pay, and then lectured us that it was our fault as teachers for going to the doctor too much, and we need to learn the benefit of just laying on the couch with orange juice [00:19:00] more often.

Um, yeah, I mean, just an evil person. Again, come fight me. Um, And so that

Michael Zarick: burned me out. Hey, I, I don't think our, our, like... Is throwing down the gauntlet, like, an illegal thing? You can just be like-

Jesse Brown: Yeah.

Michael Zarick: Yeah.

Jesse Brown: Doosh. I'm a pacifist, so you'll win that fight, but- I will talk shit while you do it. Um, so anyway flash forward, I just graduated from IUPUI finally.

I had worked for one semester as a homeroom teacher after three and a half years of being a paraprofessional and stuff like that. Uh, was in a Community of Teachers program where I was... So I was working 70 hours a week at that charter school, teaching seven different subjects, and then after school hours doing a master's program to get my secondary education license, 'cause I was on an emergency license.

Super weird, you'll never predict this, but I burned out really hard.

Michael Zarick: Mm.

Jesse Brown: Yeah. So I was like, "Okay, well, the one thing I definitely don't wanna do in my life is teach. Um, so what am I gonna do?"

Michael Zarick: I- That's a long journey to

Jesse Brown: burn out. Yeah,

Michael Zarick: right?

Jesse Brown: I feel like. So I'm like, okay, what I learned how to do is organize, so let me try to learn how to do that and do that more on the job.

So I [00:20:00] joined a Unite Here salting program. Uh, do you have any idea what salting is? Let me, let me try to explain what salting is. I know what stop model is.

Michael Zarick: No, no, you're great. Wait, here, wait.

Jesse Brown: Here's some water. Oh,

Michael Zarick: hey. Ooh. Yeah. Yeah. How about that? I know what salting is. So salting is when, uh, you have a, for example, if you have an Amazon warehouse and you're trying to form a union at Amazon, you send a, a, a union organizer or someone who is an organizer sends someone with knowledge of what union organizing is to work at the warehouse to, uh, what's, foster division.

Jesse Brown: Yeah, yeah. I suppose. Agitate, educate, organize. Or I guess

Michael Zarick: foster... Oh, what's up?

Jesse Brown: I don't know. It's kind of a great question. I've heard a couple different apocryphal answers to that, but it's like-

Michael Zarick: Oh, for those listening, sorry. The question was why is it called salting? Sorry, there we go. Thank you, Sam Ferrante.

Jesse Brown: It's like seasoning the workers to prepare them, or seasoning the workplace to prepare it for, like, a fight. Why is that salt and not sugar or- ... acid? You know, like, like, [00:21:00] vinegar. I don't know. I have no idea. But that was a perfect answer, Michael. Yeah. So-

Michael Zarick: I know things.

Jesse Brown: You know things. Yeah, I wanted to let you demonstrate your knowledge of things.

Um, back to my monologue. Uh, so- So some r- organizers from Unite Here convinced me to salt for them and help w- set up hospitality worker unions in Indianapolis, which I was like, "Great." You know, I've been studying unions, I've been reading a bunch of books, I've learned about the IWW from back in the day.

Shout out, um, I- The IWW. The Industrial Workers of the World, which, uh, Eugene Debs, our Who's Your Hero- ... was involved as a founding member. Uh, they basically took the unique at the time, and still not the, the, you know, main way, main way of looking at it, that all workers across all industries had a lot in common, and existing unions wasted a lot of time kinda arguing over turf, as opposed to just, like, all of us should be pointing in the same direction, which is against the bosses, 'cause we all have a lot that we could gain together, which I've always loved that, uh, philosophy.

Anyway, so I learned a bunch [00:22:00] about it, but, like, there weren't really unions at all in Indianapolis that I was aware of, that, that I really... You know, there was, like, the Justice for Janitors campaign. Um, worked hard on that, but, like, it was all aspirational. We hadn't won anything. And so I, um, got a job as a room service, uh, delivery guy at the Westin Hotel downtown, right by the convention center.

Uh, so I went from making $40,000 a year as a charter school homeroom teacher to making $6.35 an hour plus tips, working three third shifts and two second shifts a week, not the same days every week. So I was a horrible, worthless zombie. I was so tired all the time. And, like, the point of salting, you, like, you don't just come in here and act like Jesse Brown and just immediately start talking about your politics, 'cause that's how you get fired, right?

Mm-hmm. It's illegal to fire somebody for their politics and for organizing a union, but it happens all the time at every workplace. So instead, you're, like, undercover, and you're, like, slowly trying to, like, like, float the idea and see how people feel about it. Um, what I didn't-

Michael Zarick: Hey, do you want bigger pay?[00:23:00]

Jesse Brown: Yeah. Man, our pay certainly sucks, doesn't it? Hmm. You know, and you try to get other people to talk about it. You hang out a lot after work and just, like, make friends. Uh, there were, like, 10 of us doing this, so we would all work at our shitty poverty wage service industry jobs, and then go, like, have a collective dinner, potluck every Friday, and compare notes about, like, how are we doing.

Um, after nine months of this, the conclusion was, "Oh, there's no way in hell we're gonna organize that hotel." So they had tried, like, two years before, and, um, some of you saw some stickers, uh, that were made by a buddy at Sly Badges. Uh, that guy's dad was, like, the face of, um- anti-union injustice in Indianapolis for several years.

Um-

Michael Zarick: He- what is with, what is with, uh, the most radical people I know having the, the worst parents?

Jesse Brown: No, no, no, no, no. He w- he wasn't a bad guy. He works for the- Oh ... for the hotel- Sorry, I

Michael Zarick: got

Jesse Brown: it backwards ... as a bellman.

Michael Zarick: Got it.

Jesse Brown: And, um, he was such an outspoken supporter of the union that what the hotel did is [00:24:00] that hotel and every hotel in downtown Indianapolis fired all of their bellhops and outsourced them to a third-party company so that they could fire them, because it would be illegal to fire them themselves, so they just outsourced the entire bellhop department and now there's this separate company that does it.

And for some reason, that company won't hire the guys who were union organizers, uh, when they go back and work there. So they just busted the union in just this flagrantly anti-employee way, and that happened, like, two years before I got the job there. So everybody was so burnt out and, like, upset and scared that they did not wanna organize a union, which it was nine months of, like, hell to learn.

So I was like- I wanna- ... "Okay, do I quit?"

Michael Zarick: Can I, can I interject

Jesse Brown: a

Michael Zarick: question?

Jesse Brown: Never. Not ever. Yeah, please.

Michael Zarick: don't, don't feel bad about talking too much, 'cause I feel like, first of all, I am drawn in. Uh, second of all, you've mentioned the word burnout multiple times in the context of just your life and of organizing and of just...

I don't know. I feel in a lot of ways I am personally burnt out about a [00:25:00] lot of things. How do you feel like you remain, uh, convicted or continuing to push forward in what you do now?

Jesse Brown: Hmm. That's a really good question.

Michael Zarick: Because every time I talk to you, you're like, "I'm doing this and this and this and this and this.

Also, I sent my, uh, constituent email last night, and I'm doing a TikTok, uh, and I'm going to yell at Joe Hogsett- ... and, uh, XYZ, ABC, D." And I go, "Do you need a break?" And you go, "Never!" Not ever. So how do you keep doing that? I do actually take breaks. That's one thing I've learned. So I'm

Jesse Brown: 40-something, 40 now. Uh, not 40-something.

Old. 40, 40 and four months, five months. Uh, yeah, so I mean, you mentioned earlier in your very kind intro that you, like, always see me sacrificing, and that's accurate. And I think the lesson I've learned is you have to stop sacrificing when you're out, right? Like, you cannot keep giving when there's nothing left in your cup.

And multiple times as a younger man, I just kept on anyway until, like, your body or your mental health will force [00:26:00] you to, right? So, um, you like run full speed into a brick wall enough times and you will slowly learn to see it coming in advance. Uh, I, I, I hope. I, I think I'm on that track now. Um, yeah, because it just, like...

You know, what I've found is I'm not very good at just, like- So when I was 16, um, my very Republican grandpa I mentioned- liquor stores and insurance, um, took me out to dinner, and he did this for all of his grandkids. And for all of his grandkids it was just like a coming of age, like, "You can go anywhere in the city, we're gonna go out to eat," sort of like, "I'm glad you're 16, you're like a real person now."

But for me it felt, uh... My grandfather's not the devil, uh, I will say, but it felt to me like Jesus being tempted by the devil in the desert or whatever. He was like, "Let's go to Outback" and like- ... "Get whatever you want, and like let me tell you about how much better it is to have money." And like he was trying to convince me not to be, uh, the way I am, uh, in terms of politics and just like constantly kind of fighting the man as opposed to finding a way to succeed.

[00:27:00] Um, and you know, I just remember him being like, "I am just convinced, you know, like in 10 years you're gonna be like conservative," or like, you know, like, "Your, your politics are gonna get way more right-wing once you see how the world works." And I was like, "No, I think I like see how the world works, but it doesn't work for me."

You know, like that was the Cathedral High School thing is like, you know, I could have had like a pretty comfortable middle class life, but I saw my middle class friends and they weren't happy either, right? They were feeling really unfulfilled. And you know, as a, as a socialist, as a Marxist I would say they're experiencing alienation and the lack of third spaces, to bring in the name of the podcast.

Um-

Michael Zarick: I didn't do the intro. I failed. Well, I'll, I'll do the intro in a second, but- Yeah, yeah ... keep going.

Jesse Brown: Um, you know, like I... People just didn't feel a sense of community or any control over their lives, even if they had more money, even if they had like a really nice truck in their driveway and a good TV on the wall, and they can go out to the movies every weekend and go out to eat, like that wasn't leading people to seem satisfied.

They were doing drugs just like my poor friends were, you know what I mean? Like, like nobody was really like seeming to have it all put together. So I was like, "So if the only paths lead to places I don't [00:28:00] wanna go, I have to be off the beaten path, right?" And so yes, it's gonna be hard, but like let's get more people to try to walk in a better direction and like again build a better world, right?

Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm. Great. Yeah. Great answer. Uh-

Jesse Brown: Let's intro the podcast.

Michael Zarick: I'm gonna do the intro to the podcast. Uh, but I'll let us have it in the middle, whatever. Uh, so in 1989, this is for you, uh, in 1989- I'm pointing it. Don't dodge. Uh, in 1989, a man named Ray Oldenburg, uh, wrote a book. It's called The Great Good Place.

Mm. Uh, and then he's a sociologist, so this is a sort of, um, sociological book I guess. Uh, and in this book he coined the term third place. Uh, and this describes a place that is, uh, outside of your work and outside of your home that you can go and be with others and build communities. So the idea is that you have three places.

Uh, I'll be a little more long-winded since we're here together. Um, so your first place is your home, your second place is your work, and the third place is anywhere outside of those [00:29:00] two places that you can go and sort of build community with others. So the, the stereotypical third space, um, is like a coffee shop or a small bar.

Um, and a lot of the ... This podcast is about finding people here in Indianapolis who are doing that type of work. Um, and it's not just ... Someone asked me, they said, "Doesn't a, a business existing as a local business inherently make it a third space?" The answer is no. Uh, you have to do a little more labor than that.

Um, shout-out to Arec in the back who I think, uh, understands this well. Um, where it's, there's a little more ... It's, it's almost like a completely vibes-based thing, but a lot of it has to do with the consistency of the space, of the people that exist within the space, and the about, like, the actual feeling of being there as opposed to just going to a space and spending money there.

Um, it's so much more than just, uh, a business. [00:30:00] Um, which is why Patina is so wonderful. Um, so when I think about third spaces in a part of town that, uh, is developing these types of spaces well, part of the reason I invited Jesse Brown on is because as the, I don't wanna say leader, but it's the best word I have, um, the leader of District 13, um, he's doing a good job of, um, fostering, if not policy, at least pushing for policy that attempts to rebuild what we may have historically had and lost in a lot of ways.

Um, do you have any thoughts about your own push or maybe the ... This sounds harsh to say, but, like, the failures of other local politicians to push for these types of spaces and, and the buildup of community?

Jesse Brown: Yeah. That's a deep question. I like it. Um, so I think the thing that frustrated me most about politics [00:31:00] as I could observe it as an outsider, right?

'Cause I was never really in, you know, club meetings or anything like that. I've always voted Democrat my entire life, never voted third party or anything. Um, but just, like, never felt connected to that or like I had any say on what went on outside the, you know, two seconds in November and May. Um- To get back to my sentence, my, my view of what politics was, was, you know, people come out from behind the curtain and then they vote, and it seems like the real conversations have already happened, and there aren't really partic- there, there's not the chance to participate and really, you know, engage in, you know, like, the dialectics, to use the Marxist term since I just saw I Love Boosters.

Um, really good movie. But y- like, you know, you, you... just it should all be product of a debate, and whatever wins should not then-

Michael Zarick: Classic leftist guy. Like, I just wanna debate people.

Jesse Brown: Yeah, debate me, bro. Um, no. You know, like, I think, like, part of public policy creation should be talking about the pros and cons of different courses of action, and whatever side wins, the other side should not be like, "Dustbin of history.

We'll never consult [00:32:00] that again." We should look back a couple years later and be like, "Were we right? Did we make the right call? What could we have learned from the paths we chose not to walk down? And, like, whose voices didn't get listened to that maybe we should now try to pull into the conversation so they don't just say F this and walk away," right?

Like, like, how do we keep people feeling like this is all our city that we're building together? And I kinda got the impression that the government didn't want to do that, right? Like, we're very, very happy making decisions among a small group to speak on behalf of everyone else. So I'll catch myself doing that sometimes, and, you know, my wife Mary Kate usually does a really good job of like, kinda like slapping my hand anytime I say I, 'cause it should be like we or my constituents, right?

So I, I want to be-

Michael Zarick: Mary Kate is very good at slapping your hand.

Jesse Brown: She is great at that. Yeah. Well, she's- She is perfect. Perfect. No notes. Excellent wife. 10 out of 10. Um, so you know, like, w- I always strive to be a tribune of the district, meaning, um, I'm just bringing other people's voices to the halls of power and kinda trying to force the halls of power to come to the district.

And I [00:33:00] don't want to be the intermediary where everybody trusts me to get it done. I don't want you to trust me at all. I want you to be like, "Where are the notes from that meeting? Do you have a recording? Can I be there too?" And I wanna say yes, partially selfishly, right? 'Cause I think when I am, like, the one dude with too many pieces of flair on their jacket, it's easy to be like, "Oh, he's just out there.

He doesn't know what he's talking about." But when I say like, "Here are the 30 names and addresses of the constituents who are bugging me about this," then it becomes more obvious that like, no, this is actually a, at least a portion of the city, whether you think we're the majority like I do or whether you think, you know, it's a vocal minority.

Either way, we're here, we're vocal, and we all are talking with each other and, and aren't ignorant. You know, we actually have opinions that deserve to be respected whether or not you agree with us, right? Um, so I'll finally answer your question, I suppose. Uh, I think that policy in general, you know, we should, we should be, again, just having more, uh, discussion and debate about what are the pros, what are the cons of this.

You know, I've noticed that we try to... Politicians want to act like they're [00:34:00] solving problems all the time when we very, very rarely are. Um- So, you know, I- w- when we look at the way, for example, like road construction projects, even good ones, right? Like I think the two-way conversion on Michigan and New York w- was really good.

Um, but the way these projects are just like a huge pile of money to do this massive well-designed thing w- in the middle of like a, a map where it's like, "There be dragons," you know like, like it's like you're off the map. Like there's no... Like turn down any of the alleys off of Michigan and New York and you're gonna lose an axle, right?

Mm-hmm. And so that's a poorly designed project when people used to park on the street, now the official city answer is, "Go park in an alley," and it's like, "I would die." You know? Like, like that is not a possibility. Um, so I think, you know, we never found, uh, despite Mary Kate's awesome wisdom, we never found a sexy way to like put this on a bumper sticker, but we wanted to get to this idea that we collectively have the answers to the problems in our society, right?

It's not that like, you know, it's like the Bernie Sanders, "Not me, us." It's [00:35:00] not like one savant politician is gonna come in and like figure out how to square the circle and just like do it all in a back room. We have to let a lot more people be involved because like folks around in Patina know what they need on this block more than I do, right?

Uh, i- which means more than Joe Hogsett, which means more than Mike Braun, right? Like local people have knowledge and wisdom and skills and expertise, and really just need to be empowered to make their lives work the way that they know they can, right? And so, um, you know, I was a manager for a while when, when we get to my evil corporate Angie's List days.

Uh, and you know, so the IWW has a rule, um, anybody can be a member of the IWW. You could be an artist, you could be unemployed, you could be disabled, you could be almost any working person. If you have the power to hire and fire, you're out. They'll yank your card. And so I had been a member for six years and had to turn it in because I was a, getting paid 30 grand a year as a manager at Angie's List, but technically I had the power to hire and fire.

But, uh, I tried to be a good manager. [00:36:00] Um, it was I guess maybe a prep for being a politician. It's like roles that I hate but yet exist in this world, and so somebody's gotta do 'em. But what I always try to do is take the roadblocks away from the frontline people and treat them like heroes, and my job is to like jump in the way of any problems and let them keep working.

Uh, so I was a pretty popular manager, and like I try and probably fail, but that's what I try to do as a politician too, is just like let my constituents succeed, and like I'll soak up the hate and try to run interference if possible.

Michael Zarick: Hmm. That is... Okay. Amazing. Yeah, no, seriously. That's cool. Uh, quick shout-out, my lovely wife is in the back.

Um, first of all, this podcast would not exist without her. I need you to, to make that very clear. Yeah. Um, I would also probably not exist without her also in a lot of ways. I don't nourish myself. Um, do you know how long we've been recording for?

Jesse Brown: Uh, it's- Six hours

Michael Zarick: Oh, 36 minutes. Oh my God, the time flies.

The time flies when [00:37:00] Jesse Brown is yapping. That's the ... Uh, I didn't... I failed to, uh, get a can, um, 'cause I was gonna pass around a can for my canned questions, uh, for you guys to write down, but we'll just use hands later. Uh, but first we're gonna go to my canned questions, uh, which the first one, sponsored by City Rising, is, uh, what is a third space or place to you?

Yeah, I think

Jesse Brown: you described it really well earlier, and my Jesse Brown spin on it would be a place where you have at least some degree of autonomy and ownership in that place. Like, I was thinking... Yeah, I'm always thinking about how to interrupt you to make a sarcastic joke. Uh, not you, anyone. It's just the way my brain works, I'm sorry.

Um, so you were describing third space, and I was gonna jokingly be like, "So like a Starbucks, right?" You know? As a joke. Okay. But go... I mean, go ahead. Go ahead. I

Michael Zarick: was gonna say Starbucks is not restricted from being a third space. I would say a McDonald's can be a third [00:38:00] space.

Jesse Brown: Sure. And, and yeah, that's what I was going with.

Yeah. 'Cause Starbucks 20 years ago, and, like, how they kinda became such a big deal was because they wanted to be an inviting place where you could just bring your laptop and just fart around doing whatever you wanted all day, and they wouldn't come bug you about it. Yeah. And then as they've been like, "You need to ask for a key to go to the bathroom.

We don't want you in here 'cause we're worried you're homeless," like, as they've been like, "Buy something or get out," it's, I think, becoming-

Michael Zarick: As they stop paying their workers a living wage.

Jesse Brown: That as well. Yeah. Shout out to the Mass Ave. Starbucks, which is union. Um, but- You know, like so, so it, it's a spectrum, right?

It's like the degree to which you can feel not awkward about walking in, sitting down, and just being yourself, like that's the degree to which it's a third space. Right? So, um, to me, like you said, it could be corporate, it could be privately owned. Um, but if the general policies and the general vibe would allow you to just like come in and do something a little bit off base of what everybody else is doing without being disruptive, then to me that's a third space.

That's like you're kinda ... Your vibe is [00:39:00] adding to the, the room vibe, right? Your energy is, is kinda being part of the, uh, mixed salad of emotional experience in that place.

Michael Zarick: Yeah, definitely. I also wanna, uh, there's something I like to think about also, which is that like a place can be a third space or place for someone else and not for you.

That's a really important point that I think doesn't get talked about. Like I really like going to Amelia's over here in Windsor Park. That is not a third place for me 'cause I don't ... First of all, I don't go enough, and I do like see people I know there, but it's like I don't live in that area. It's not like somewhere I frequent.

Um, but it is a third place for many of the people who live around it. Um, and I think that, uh, a lot of businesses go, "Hey, we're a third place." Like that, it's not something inherent to the business. It's more about, um, like you said, being part of the the emotional soup, which is a great way ... Or you said salad, but that's funny.

Soupy salad. Yeah. Oh, that was a, my high

Jesse Brown: school government [00:40:00] teacher hated the phrase melting pot about the United States. Uh-huh. 'Cause she's like, "It should be like a tossed salad because like you should retain your individual characteristics but be part of the whole. You shouldn't melt and just become homogenized white milk or whatever," you know?

Michael Zarick: That sounds like something I've heard from, uh, a man in the back of the room. He said that we have a melting pot here in the United States, but the heat is turned up too high.

Jesse Brown: Yeah.

Michael Zarick: Um, shout out to Patrick.

Next question: What is a third space or place that has existed for you previously and does not any longer?

Jesse Brown: The first one that popped up was the Abbey Coffee House. Um, old heads know what's up. Um, used to be back when it was like, uh, when 10th and Mass was, like, a little bit of a sketchy place to go.

Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.

Jesse Brown: I've heard that. Um, so new people in town are like, "What? Are you serious? That's like the most, like, kinda bougie, artsy place." No. It's still

Michael Zarick: sketchy if you don't like people in suits.

Jesse Brown: True, yes. Uh, but that- those are the people you would never see at 10th and Mass, like, when I was in high school. Uh, but there was this little coffee shop called The [00:41:00] Abbey, and, um, they were one of the first places that, like, frequently would have, like, a vegan pastry.

Like, that was a very rare thing. It was like, a coffee shop? A, that's rare, with vegan good- Like, now that's every coffee- You could not be a coffee shop without having that. But when I was a, like, 17-year-old vegan, uh, you know, so I didn't drink or whatever, but I was like, "Oh, coffee and, like, a vegan chocolate cake?

This was awesome." And they were like - It kinda had Rabble Coffee vibes where it was just kind of, like, a little grungy, you know, but, like, the people there all had heart. They really welcomed, you know, uh, horrible dreadlocked, uh, teenagers to come hang out there- ... without ever, like, judging me or whatever. So it was just a really cool place.

Uh, then they moved to, like, 9th and Penn, and then they shut down years ago, so.

Michael Zarick: Yeah. Uh, do you have a specific memory of that place?

Jesse Brown: Any time where you were like, "Man, this is a place I wanna be"? I mean, I just, like, I didn't have a lot of places to go hang out. You know, I'd go hang out at friends' houses. Um, Solidarity Books was the, like, anarchist info shop, so I would hang out [00:42:00] there.

Um, I would do Food Not Bombs. I'd hang out, um, you know, in front of Central Library even way back then on Sundays. Uh, but that was, like, out in public, you know? It, it was rare that I had, like, a place with walls that I could go and hang out, uh, you know, um, without a bunch of money and still feel welcomed, yeah.

Michael Zarick: That's funny.

Jesse Brown: So not a specific time- Okay ... but just, like, it would be like, "Oh, that's always an option"- Yeah ... which-

Michael Zarick: But it's also vibes based. Yes. Like, like I said, like, third spaces are so vibes. Like, you don't even have to have a memory. You just know that it is a memorable place. Like, I think that's important, too.

Uh, I have one last question, and then I'll let open it up to the, the guests. Every episode of the podcast I ask a question from the previous guest. Uh, my previous guest for this one I talked to yesterday. Her name is Danielle Garon. Uh, runs the Soul Food Project here in Indianapolis. She said, "If you were a plant, what plant would you be?"

I made the joke that you would say government plant. Ba-dum-bum.

Jesse Brown: Never that, though. Uh [00:43:00] I think I would be like clover. Maybe 'cause I'm looking directly at clover right now. But it's kind of like- Looks around, sees a plant I would be grass. Uh, uh, no, uh, just, I don't know, clover has flowers, but not ostentatious flowers.

Uh, really is just kinda like hardworking and grows everywhere. Um, um, yeah, and like isn't ever gonna be like in a, a beauty magazine or like a bouquet usually, but is, you know, pleasant to look at and, uh, generally improves the vibes, I hope.

Michael Zarick: Gorgeous metaphor. Uh, fun fact for Amanda Darling, the state flower is the peony.

Uh, but if you didn't know, the peony is the state flower because there was a politician who said, "I grow peonies. How do we sell these?" And, and then they updated the legislation. Amazing.

The zinnia was the state flower before that. Wow. Thank you, Alexa Adamson. Uh, yeah- Corruption ... so, uh, don't, don't, don't believe, don't believe the [00:44:00] things you read on the internet.

Jesse Brown: So the real government plant is a peony, man.

Michael Zarick: Yeah. That's what I've learned. Uh, great. Why don't we go ahead and ask the question for the next episode guest, and then we'll open it to the, the crowd.

Is that okay?

Jesse Brown: Yeah.

Michael Zarick: What question would you like to ask- I'm just- ... the next- I want it to be a good one ... guest of Third Space Indy?

Jesse Brown: What is a rule that you wish would totally go away, like in people's hearts as well as in the law?

Michael Zarick: Oh, I think there's a-

Jesse Brown: I don't know how I would

Michael Zarick: answer my own- That's a good, that's a good question for the next person.

Uh, who? I- are you, like, rearing to raise your hand? Yeah. Okay. We're going to just take a- questions from the audience. I can ask more questions if no one raises their hands. Uh, but yeah, thanks so much for doing this. Is there anything else you'd like to say before we open up the, the floor?

Jesse Brown: No, it was great.

No, I mean, I, I really meant what I said. I like to present other people's arguments to government officials especially, who don't normally listen to them. I [00:45:00] don't know that they listen to me either, but I can at least make sure that they're getting the official... You know, on the mic, they're hearing it. So I always tell constituents this in my newsletter, but if there's ever something you see me saying or doing that you disagree with, those are the things I wanna hear from you first and foremost, because as y- as I've proven today, I will go on and on about the stuff I already agree with.

I don't need your help. Uh, but if I'm missing something, that's where I need your help. And if you think I'm getting something wrong, you're, you could very well be right. I'm very opinionated, but I- I'm also willing to listen. So, you know, hit me up and, like, get cof- I'll buy the coffee, and you can tell me why I'm wrong, and I'll only get sort of defensive.

And then I'll think about it afterwards and probably email you and be like, "Okay, I think you're right about something." So-

Michael Zarick: You've never bought me coffee ...

Jesse Brown: that's a promise.

Michael Zarick: I just wanna say that.

Jesse Brown: Well, you've never had anything I was wrong about,

Michael Zarick: so. I've purchased you coffee, actually. Um, well, thank you so much for doing this.

Is there anyone in the crowd who has a question for County Councilor Jesse Brown of District 13? Arec?

Arec Ligon: It's recently become my mission to promote third spaces, and I've [00:46:00] realized that a big part of that is teaching the people in the village to be good villagers

Jesse Brown: Hmm.

Arec Ligon: And I imagine you run into that a lot in your position less effective in, uh, growing good villagers, not just the places that exist in here.

Jesse Brown: That's a really good question

Michael Zarick: The question, the question was how to be a good villager, in, in short.

Jesse Brown: Yeah. Uh, specifically, yeah, to grow good third spaces, you have to have good participants, right? Good villagers. And so, um, how do you encourage people to do that? So I think, I, like I want to be very careful in how I phrase this because I think you could phra- you could change a couple words of what I say and it would be the typical government answer, which I think is horrible and evil, right?

But I'm, it's, it's actually not too far off of that. Uh, what I found from a lot of my peers in politics are they get super, super offended if you say anything about them without talking to them, and just like say it privately to them, right? 'Cause they don't like public critique. Um, what I would say is, um, [00:47:00] do publicly critiq- like, like I don't think it's reasonable that you have to have everybody's cell phone number in order to have an opinion, right?

But when people then engage with you and are like, "Whoa, can you say more about that?" Treat them in good faith and try to work with them, and like figure out where, you know, assume that they're a decent person who wants good things in the world, and like you can reason with them. There are people who don't fit that, right?

But they're rare enough, and I think like it makes us all bad villagers if we treat other human beings as the enemy. It's, uh, it was Michael Brooks, I think, who said, uh, "Be kind to people, be ruthless with systems," right? But don't forget the be kind to people part. Even people with ideas or opinions you find really odious and, and like hurtful to society, try to work with them and like have it be a, a, a collective project to change minds as opposed to, you know, like shunning people or shaming people or, you know, like a cancel culture morality police.

I just don't think that's very effective, and then leads to heightened tensions where people don't wanna hang out, right? Um, trust me, there are [00:48:00] times when we want to create that divisive kind of like fighty spirit, but I think that you seem crazy if you just jump right to that and you haven't done the patient work of trying to build first.

Or like that should be a last resort. Um, and so I think just, yeah, try to figure out like, okay, where can I s- take a step back, examine what I've said. Maybe I wasn't as clear as I thought. Um, or what, what do they know that I don't know that's leading them to believe this, right? Um, yeah, which doesn't mean you have to change your mind at the end of the day, but I think even just engaging with people.

I've had a lot of people, um... I'll, I'll, I'll tell a quick story, uh, 'cause I haven't been talking enough. Uh- How quick? 35 minutes. No, uh, I had this, like far right Republican guy who waited for me after a city council meeting. I think I've told you this story. Um, but he just like saw how I was engaging with people, like talking and like listening, even people I disagreed with.

And like he came up to me afterwards and just like poked me in the chest, was just like, "Let me tell you how goddamn angry it makes me that a fucking socialist is my favorite city councilor." And like that is like the highest praise I've ever gotten. I'll [00:49:00] treasure it till the day I die. You know, and like be like that, right?

Like, so I didn't like, you know, I didn't- throw away my values and, like, just, just meet him where he was at in terms of, like, not also arguing. But, like, I heard him. I, I, in good faith, did a steel man argument to what he was saying, found some stuff we agree on, even if it's 90% stuff we disagree on. And, like, you can win people's respect even if they hate you, right?

Like, so

yeah.

Michael Zarick: Amazing. I- I'm gonna give the microphone. That's... Yeah. It's easier to walk around. I'm not... Don't worry about the camera. What's your name

Audrey Jones: again?

Robs: My name's Robs. Oh.

Michael Zarick: We've met

Robs: before. Yeah, it's good to see you. Uh, pronouns are they/them. Hi. What do you think is missing from leftist organizing in Indianapolis right now that maybe has existed before or hasn't?

And how do you think the concept of third place can contribute to that?

Jesse Brown: That's really good ...

Michael Zarick: I love the end part.

Jesse Brown: Yeah. That's an excellent question, and yeah, bonus points for bringing it back to Michael and Third Space. [00:50:00] Um, yeah, I think that, uh, what is missing, I think there are processes and, you know, thought has been given to this, but I don't think it's working yet, about finding a way to come together and have constructive criticism and find ways to disagree while still being friends or still, like, you know, being comrades, right?

So there are a bunch of different lefty groups who... Has anybody ever seen, uh, The Life of Brian, uh, Monty Python? Do you remember the scene in the arena where it's like the Judean Pe- People's Front? They're like, "Oh, we're not the Judean People's Front. We're the People's Front of Judea. They're splitters.

Like, screw them." Like, uh, and they're talking about like who are the biggest threats, and they're... The, the correct answer was the Romans, but like, "No, it's the Judean People's Front." You know, it's like leftist groups fighting other leftist groups. Like, that was a joke in the '70s, you know? But it's still been true, where like, you know, I think that there i- it's a both/and sort of thing, where there are valid reasons...

You know, I don't think it's like all lefties should just, uh, dissolve and melting pot [00:51:00] into one group. I think that they're, you know, different people do different things well. And you're allowed to say, "I think one thing you did was, was screwed up," and like, you know, "I think that's problematic." But I think we have to find a way to like set boundaries such that like the people could still exist, and you should still recognize they're probably a lot closer to your point of view than like MAGA, right?

And so how do we work together? Um, how do we find things that we do agree on without like feeling like we have to agree on everything? And I think a third space could be really beneficial to that because, um, well, two ways. One, I think meeting on neutral ground, right? So like, you know, my, my Jets and your Sharks are gonna like come together, and it shouldn't be on either of our gang turf, right?

Like, so we should go to a place where both of us are feeling a little bit outside. And then honestly, I think you should like try to have these conversations in public, because chances are, if you're two different leftists arguing about something where you're gonna be in a coffee shop and everyone in that coffee shop is gonna be like, "What the hell are those people talking about?"

That's probably a good sign that maybe you're in the weeds too deep, and you should like touch grass and, and talk with regular, real people instead. So I think [00:52:00] those are the two ways third places could be super helpful at like grounding us, you know, figuratively.

Michael Zarick: I wanna answer the third space part.

Jesse Brown: Do it.

Michael Zarick: Yeah. This is like all I think about, so . Um, a, a lot of the benefit of third spaces, and the reason they don't exist anymore, like there is an intentional, um, like systematic reason they don't exist, which is that most third spaces do not generate a ton of money. Um- And historically, third spaces, I think of women's clubs, I think of, uh, the YMCA, I think of, uh, coffee shops in a lot of ways.

But primarily women's clubs. I'm thinking of the, uh... Oh, gosh, what's the one over on Delaware?

Jesse Brown: Propoleum?

Michael Zarick: Propoleum. Yeah. Um, historically third space is a place where because you're interfacing with your neighbors regularly, you start to realize a collective conscious of, like, what is wrong with your life and what is wrong with your neighbor's life.[00:53:00]

Uh, and then you stop disagreeing on things, and you start going, "Fuck that guy over there." Uh, and that's how, like, real change is made. So, like, the, the... Both, uh, the death of the third space is, is, like, terrible both from, like, a suburban and, like, life ex- like, life fulfillment aspect, but also just, like, an organizing make your life better aspect.

Uh, and so making intentional time to create these spaces and be here together like we are now is really important. Because, like, you start to understand that, like, even though I think socialism is bad, Jesse Brown himself is not a bad guy. You know? Even though... Like that guy who met him at the City County Council building.

It's like when you are intentional and you get out from behind your screen and you say hello to someone face to face, you're not gonna punch them more than likely, unless you're a freak. Uh, you're probably gonna sit down and have a conversation. That's worth something. Uh, that's how I would say. [00:54:00] Yeah. All right.

Did you solve your question?

Audrey Jones: Well, I have a two-part question. Um, the first one's I don't need to say into the mic. Is it really your birthday?

Jason: No, it's Third Space Indy's birthday.

Audrey Jones: Oh, okay. Okay, cool, cool. I was like, do I need to say happy birthday? Happy

Jesse Brown: birthday Michael Zarick.

Audrey Jones: Yeah. It's your birthday. Okay, cool, cool, cool.

We won't

Michael Zarick: do that. Cool.

Jesse Brown: You're one year old.

Audrey Jones: Yeah, I agree. Please don't do that. Um, my other question is not the most interesting of questions, um, but I spend a lot of time thinking about, um, like grant making, contracting, procurement, um, and like the money of it all, and how that flows from public dollars often in the case of Indianapolis to like private corporations, um, instead of to organizations that like build and localize wealth.

Um, and I'm wondering from your perspective if you see like any conflicts between the way that like people currently sit on and inhabit and leverage city council and their connections- Hmm To [00:55:00] create financial benefit for themselves. And I'm wondering also just, like, how you see potential for, like, change maybe in the regulatory sense and some sorts of, like, legal senses or ways that we can interface with, um, to help ensure that, like, future administrations and also future city county councils aren't, like, marred with, like, contractual cronyism.

That's my... It's... Yeah.

Jesse Brown: Excellent question.

Michael Zarick: She says as she leaves for Seattle.

Jesse Brown: Yeah.

See ya. Deuces.

Yeah. Um, excellent question. Yeah, I don't think you'll be surprised to know that, yes, I see a massive amount of what I'll, I'll just call corruption, whether it's illegal or not. Um, in a, in a just world, it would be illegal.

It, it... People benefiting privately in ways that as a representative their, their constituents don't benefit. That's corruption, right? Like, you don't have to be an evil person. I know that's the way it's done. It's, you know, how things work. It's still corruption. It's not in the service of a better society that we have this.

And there's a bunch of different reasons for it. And, like, I think by nature [00:56:00] of serving in a majority Democrat, uh, legislature, I end up complaining about, like, the Joe Hogsett wing of the Democratic Party and, and the Democrats in general, although that's... You know, I'm an elected Democrat. But I think it's, uh, really important to, uh, talk about the fact that Republicans just utter hatred of government itself I think is at the root of a lot of these systems, um, where public dollars flow to private, you know, companies.

It's, you know... Most other countries, like, n- not maybe most other countries, a lot of developed countries, especially in Europe, you know, just have public agencies that handle things. You know, like, we wouldn't have a BlackRock, a Qatari consortium running our electric company, right? That makes sense. Why would we do that?

Why, why not just... If it's a monopoly, the government should run it, right? And that's how most countries have done that. And the reason, one of the biggest reasons we don't have that in this country is because one of our political parties runs for office saying, "You can't trust the government," and then they take over the government and intentionally wreck [00:57:00] it so that people don't trust the government.

And, you know, it's like, it shouldn't be surprising that when you go in saying, "I will wreck everything," and then you do, that's not the government not working. That means the government's efficient at doing what you set out to do, and what you set out to do was wreck shit, you know? So, uh, like, I'm a big fan of Zohran Mamdani.

I think he's doing a really good job of just proving actually there's nothing inherent about the public sector that stops us from being able to do work efficiently and well. Um, but part of the solution that makes the public sector not this big scary thing and, you know, not the, the Ronald Reagan scariest words in the English language are, "I'm from the government, I'm here to help," is when you feel like the government is us, right?

It's, it's like with union work. If people are thinking about the union out there and not like, 'I am the union. We are the union,' then you're never gonna really engage and lean in and fix the problems in your union and insist that it gets better. And so, you know, even though I ... You know, like the short version I tell people about why I ran for office is 'cause I got sick of throwing tomatoes from the sidelines, right?

And so while people are just [00:58:00] being like, 'Man, screw the government, they're, like, really bad,' yes, they are really bad, but it's your money that they're being really bad with. Like, you should, you should have a problem with that, and you should feel very insistent and empowered on stepping up and making it work better.

So, uh, the solution on the macro level and at the micro level, I think, is way more transparency and accountability. And so I have to give, like, a shout-out to local journalism, both like, you know, podcasters, as well as Mirror Indy and, like, even IndyStar is doing some really good investigative journalism lately.

Um, and then I think we have to, like, figure out a way I'm just seeing the parallel here with what we just talked about with Third Spaces, right? Where the profit motive is what sucks out the ability for those who just naturally crop up like the clover. I'm pulling all the things, things together. It's the weave.

It's the weave. I'm Donald Trump n- right now. Okay, uh... What? Deep cut. All right, uh... That's dumb. But, but- No regrets ... all right, all right. So, profit motive sucks all the life out [00:59:00] of everything. It allows money and people with money to flood the zone, right? Like, you can't put up a new art space or artist housing because it's all corporate owned, right?

Uh, in the same way, it's really hard for messages to get through the noise because the big tech oligarchs are flooding the zone with just mass-produced, uh, you know, like, like advertisements essentially, for the world that they wanna create. And so for every good Mirror Indy article that exposes some corruption, you know, you get 100 local news stories about a latest shooting, as though that's, like, somehow news and not a predictable outcome, right?

And so part of it has to be... Like, as a socialist, I'm, I'm very leery of advice that's like, "Oh, well, people just need to do more better themselves," because I think it's a systemic problem, it needs systemic solutions. But I think we do need to all lean in and, like, pay attention when there are stories like that.

Talk to people about it. Um, we all have friends who, like, aren't political. It's like, okay, well, you could be not political, [01:00:00] but, like, let's talk about this, like, audit of OPHS. Let's talk about, um, you know, the, the amount of city contracts that went to the Mr. Clean, right? Like, there are stories that we should be talking about and then following up on and insisting, um, change things.

You know, so, so, I don't know, that was a, a super long answer. Short version, fewer private contracts total. Um, really, really, uh, relevant right now. Last week in the IBJ, Indianapolis Business Journal, uh, for those who aren't woke, uh- ... they talked about the city of Indianapolis is spending $360,000 to pay a consultant to study whether or not we have enough parking downtown.

Michael Zarick: Oh my God. Oh. Make

Jesse Brown: it pay me. We already

Michael Zarick: did that. I'll go do it.

Jesse Brown: Yes. Or, or, or pay me and I'll do the D&C autopsy study and be like We have enough. Call me on it. I'll, I'll show my work.

Michael Zarick: If you don't know, uh, I believe it's 27% of our downtown land area is parking spots.

Jesse Brown: Yes. And so I found out that no city councilor, including Kristen Jones, who's the chair of the [01:01:00] Public Works, uh, Committee, was told about this expenditure of $360,000.

And so I tried to introduce a proposal that just said, "Let's amend city code in basically all of my district near IndyGo, uh, Mass Transit, and near the compact context area, and let's just say there are no parking minimums there." We have enough parking spots. Like, anybody who's mad because their house doesn't have, uh, parking, and there will be some, come talk to me about it.

I'll take up all the hate. I'll lose my next election if need be. I think that would, like, absolutely unlock a lot of, like, positive development in the district, and, uh, they're not even letting me put it on the agenda. They're claiming that that's illegal. So like, there are things we can do to just say, "No, we refuse to pay consultants.

We're in fact just gonna take a political risk and let people vote yes or no if they like that or not." Um, and, and we should be really mad when our tax dollars are spent to pay an out-of-town consultant to study something that they've never asked an opinion poll

Michael Zarick: about what people out of town- It's also not just out of town, I think it's out of state.

Jesse Brown: Yes.

Michael Zarick: Yeah. Almost always. Which is, which is worse. Uh, [01:02:00] great question. Any, uh, anyone else? Oh, my gosh. Uh, I'm gonna give it to Anna 'cause she shares my wife's name.

Anna: It's a, it's a really good name. Um, yeah, I think as, like, a, as a citizen and a voter, it's very easy to kind of focus on, like, who out there shares my opinions, who believes in the same things I do, but something that gets less attention is, like, the actual, like, follow-through, the actual, like, making things happen, making projects be completed, um, in the way that they're supposed to be completed.

Um, and so how do you think about that, um, in your current position?

Jesse Brown: Yeah, that's a great question. Uh, I mean, part of it is encouraging people to criticize me more, right? Because when I have 6,000 things, as Michael notices, uh, that I'm doing, inevitably I'm going to fail to follow through on a lot of them.

And so I want people to feel empowered and encouraged to be like, "Hey, you failed [01:03:00] to follow through on that." I'm like, "Oh, yep. So I did. Thank you."

Michael Zarick: Email three times.

Jesse Brown: E- Yeah. You sh- hopefully you should never have to do that to me, but sometimes you have to wait four or five days for me to get back to you. Um, so that's part of it, and then also trying to demonstrate, um- Like, I never ever want to tell people, "Yeah, I'm working on it, trust me."

Like, don't. Don't trust me. Like, if I can't show my work, I probably don't have anything I'm proud of that I've done, right? There's nothing I'm doing that's secret that I can't talk about it. Even if it's like I've had meetings on Monday, Wednesday, and Thursday, and here's where they're at right now, this is what I'm frustrated with, but here's what I'm trying to do.

Like, I, I don't have to share people's secrets. I don't want it to be where no other politician will have a confidential confirma- conversation with me because I just spill their guts on Main Street or whatever. But, like, I can still tell you specific action items I'm doing and specific blockers. And so, uh, this came up.

So when I ran for office, it was against the sitting vice president of the city council, and I talked to constituents a lot about this, um, the differences between the two of us, because, uh, he was [01:04:00] known as one of the most progressive people on the council, and he had this great idea years back, uh, noticing how many problems there are with out-of-state absentee landlords.

True, I also have problems with those. He had a really good idea, which was to create a landlord registry where landlords would have to register with the city, be on a spreadsheet showing who is your local agent, and then pay just, like, some small fee to show that the city, like, knows who you are. You're not just running an illegal rental out of your basement or whatever.

Um, the State House came through and preempted Indianapolis and said, "That's illegal. You know, that interferes with the sacred bond between landlord and, uh, tenant. So you can't force people to use that registry. It could be an opt-in only." And so what my predecessor did was left it on his website as a landlord registry even though it was no longer useful for anybody.

And so the difference there is I would've been like, "Here are the names and phone numbers of the people who say that your slum lord gets to hide from the government, and it's these State House representatives who voted on this. Make sure they know about it. I will be fighting them until [01:05:00] they're out of office."

Right? And so, like, you know, I, I think there's, there's some people who think that that looks like passing the buck and like, "Oh, I'm just blaming other people." But in this case, like, he had good policy, it was on the books, and there are specific people who took that away from his constituents. They deserve to know that.

You know, in our state, the city council does not have unlimited power, and so, you know, like, if I can't do it, I want you to know why not and who we can collectively, me right shoulder to shoulder with you, can go talk to about it to try to persuade them or yell at them and, and, you know, make them change their mind.

Michael Zarick: Good answer, as always. Uh, I also wanna let you know that the b- the guy you ran against is Alexis' uncle. Um, not to call you out.

Jesse Brown: Really? One of my political heroes. Yeah, I never thought I would win the election.

Michael Zarick: In the interest of disclosure. Uh, that's true, in the interest of disclosure. Uh, Andrea, do you still wanna ask a question?

What's giving you hope today? What's giving you hope today? Great [01:06:00] question.

Jesse Brown: I am, uh, an extrovert to a ridiculous degree, so any time I can sit with a bunch of people and cha- and talk to people, especially people I'm meeting for the first time, that just gives me hope and, and I ride on that high to the next thing.

Michael Zarick: How many people here do you know? Did you know, sorry?

Jesse Brown: Did I know? Yeah. Now you're gonna put me on the spot, because-

Michael Zarick: Yeah.

Jesse Brown: I was about to say, yeah, like, like, yeah, yeah, raise your hand if, if I should know you, and if I look at you like, "Uh," then I'll be like, "Oh, shit."

Michael Zarick: That's a good question.

Jesse Brown: Okay, good. Phew. I was worried there'd be several people, 'cause you know, like, I do social media and stuff, so somebody'll be like, "Yeah, I know you."

I was like, "Really? Shit, I'm sorry."

Michael Zarick: There's a lot of people here I've never seen before, so that's... it's good for both of us in a lot of ways. Uh, any other questions? Yeah. Oh wait, you-

Jason: My name's Jason. Mm-hmm. First of all, thank you guys both for doing this. Um, a big third space for me, I'm from Northern Indiana, is the dispensary. Are we any closer in Indiana to- ... having that option, or?

Michael Zarick: He asked about weed.

Jesse Brown: So, so I had a, uh, [01:07:00] constituent post online about data centers. I'll get there. This does connect.

Uh- But he posts online about data centers, and he had been involved in historic urban neighborhoods of Indianapolis for, like, decades, has been, like, really big on, like, constituent, uh, you know, connections, and he talked about data centers as being the issue where the average belief of the constituents is further from the average belief of elected officials than any other issue.

And I think he was almost right, 'cause I think marijuana is probably actually the number one issue. Data centers, at least it's new enough that some people are like, you know, just don't have an opinion, but most people understand what marijuana is, and I've yet to meet someone in the last five years who can put up a good reason why they think it should be illegal.

So, uh, even people, you know, who don't consume it and don't think it's good to consume, it's really hard to justify looking at alcohol and, and then look at marijuana, like look at the deleterious side effects of it. There's just no excuse other than lobbyists. And so, um, are we close? It's just like... I mean, [01:08:00] I, I like was afraid to say this out loud before the 2024 election, but I was like, if I were a, you know, like demagogue who just wanted control of the White House for corrupt purposes like Donald Trump, I would just say, "I'm legalizing weed nationwide on day one," and he would've won in a landslide.

He won anyway apparently. But like, you know, like it just is a really huge opening for institutional establishment politicians not to be on the same page as constituents over this issue that so many people, it impacts their daily or at least weekly or monthly life. Um, so I just think, like, it's the, it's this giant gap that shows our political system is bought off by lobbyists because, you know, like no one can just like run on that and be convinced.

Like, even people who run on that, most of the electorate's like, "You'll never be able to get it done." And, and they're probably right, which should be a sign. Like, why would this non-s- like, like non-controversial common sense thing be so hard to pass, right? So that, that's my, that's my weed take. Yeah, right.

Michael Zarick: Also on the topic of like third [01:09:00] spaces. Oh, sorry. Pull it back. There's a, there's a place in Broad Ripple called, uh, The Health Club, and back in the late, uh, fall or early, uh, winter, they Um, it was around the same time that they, like, started to cut SNAP benefits, which is an unfortunate double, double, double tap, I guess.

Sure. Um, I went to go talk to the owner because I'd never been in there before, just like talk to him about, like, what he thought about the legislation of them taking away hemp products. Yeah. Because if you don't know, uh, it's The Health Club, which is THC, haha, double entendre. Um, they sell, uh, I don't understand all the chemicals and stuff like that, but they sell THC drinks.

Um, and you just talk- talking to him about the people that come into his space, the people that have expressed, um, thanks to him for creating this community space that they enjoy hanging out in, talking to veterans that no longer have to deal with PTSD or pain, um, and just things like that [01:10:00] where They are in a lot of ways providing a service that frankly alcohol does not serve beyond just, like, the emotional, like, third space act, uh, thing is, uh, really compelling to me also.

Um, so I just, um, it seems so silly. Totally. Uh, great. Any other questions? Everyone feeling good? I think that we've gone long enough. Uh-

Jesse Brown: Backs my mind a lot.

Michael Zarick: Uh, Jesse Brown. Oh, wait, one last thing. Plug, plug the Socialist Party of Indiana.

Jesse Brown: Oh, yeah. So, uh, my, my 10 out of 10 wife I mentioned earlier, Mary Kate Dugan, is the chair of the Socialist Party of Indiana.

Wearing a little button here. Um, I know a lot of people... So, like, 10 people when they came to vote for me in the primary, um, in 2023 walked in and were like, "No, I'm an independent, man. I'm not part of the Democratic Party," which meant they weren't allowed to vote for me as a Democrat. Uh, [01:11:00] they just voted on the IPS referendum and didn't get to vote on anybody in the primary, and they didn't understand how that works.

Um, Democratic Party in this state is, I think, 27% of people have a positive opinion on it. Um, and so we're in this, like, position where I think the vast majority of people see the huge problems with Republican Party, especially under MAGA, having, uh, unlimited control in this state, and we want that to stop.

And whether I like it or not, there are a lot of people who just will not, um, vote for a Democrat any, any longer, and they just have a bunch of problems with the Democratic Party. And after seeing Greg Taylor and Joe Hogsett and, uh, you know, Karen Tallian, and, like, a lot of the problems we've seen, I understand where they're coming from.

And so, uh, you know, right now, any time a progressive, especially in Marion County, um, challenges the Democratic establishment, they do some version of what they did to me, right? So they kicked me out of the caucus. They didn't kick me out of the Democratic Party yet. Um, [01:12:00] Mary Kate probably wouldn't like me saying this on the podcast, but I'm going to anyway.

Uh, there is s- a lawsuit that went all the way up to the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals where they could. They can kick somebody out of the party just because, and now you don't have access to the ballot line anymore, and you can run, but it says independent, and, like, write-ins have a really difficult time.

So this project, Socialist Party of Indiana, is to create another ballot line, not to say, like, never use the Democratic ballot line ever again. But for places where a county party chair is way out of s- lockstep with the rest of the state or the rest of the country, they can't stop people from getting on the ballot.

So we have another path forward. And so a, a good friend of mine, Ben Davis, is running for, um, House District 13, which is, like, rural parts of Indiana near Lafayette. It went, uh, in 2022, Matt Commons is their representative. He's a first-time, uh ... First time he ever ran for office, he won. He's a MAGA, like, schoolteacher, uh, high school teacher there.

No connection to the political establishment. The Democrat in that race just put their [01:13:00] name on the ballot and never campaigned. And so they, they ... I think he got ... The Republican got 70% of the ballot. The Democrat got, like, 20%. And so when my buddy Ben wanted to run, he was like, "I just wanna actually campaign and fight."

And the local county party chair up there told him, "No, you can't, because you keep telling the people that you're a Democratic Socialist like Zohran. And so you're not a Democrat. You can't run." And he's like, "Well, but I, you know, but I'm not a Republican, and the whole point is I wanna fight the Republicans."

They said, "No, you're gonna ruin our brand. We don't ... We would rather you not run at all than run as an open Democratic Socialist." So he decided he was gonna run as an independent anyway. Right. So, so we, we, you know, recruited him in. He's running as a Socialist Party of Indiana candidate. And, you know, he may or may not win.

I think he could. I think people should go up and knock a bunch of doors for him, 'cause I went up and knocked doors for him and talked to regular renters up there who hate, you know, the Republican Party. They hate what's going on. They also think the Democrats are only concerned about culture war issues and are just as bought out by the corporate elites and aren't actually gonna change anything.

[01:14:00] I'm like, "Man, I have a hard time arguing against you. But don't worry, my buddy is not that," right? And, uh, I knocked doors and knocked, talked to 45 people, regular renters, multiracial, uh, people. Not a single person balked at the word socialism, and that's in a deep red, 70% MAGA, uh, area. So I, I really think that Zohran, AOC, Bernie, Bernie w- who won this pr- s- state's primary in 2016 commandingly, show a lot of people are ready for socialism.

And so this is a new ballot line project that you should get involved with, socialistpartyin.com. Um, you know, fight from within the Democratic Party if you can and if you have a path forward. Uh, but there were a lot of people in, like, the five years before I ran who tried to run for office and, just like the 80-something precinct committee people and state party delegates a couple months ago, look it up on Mirror Indy, they just got prevented from being able to run for office.

They just got stricken from the ballot line, and then they just gave up, and then they [01:15:00] just got salty and stopped participating in politics. So, um, I think of this as, like, a backstop ballot line, where it's like, just 'cause you hate the two parties, so do I. Some of us are willing to hold our nose and fight through it anyway.

If you're not, here's another place for you to be and for you to, to, you know, successfully contest for power anyway Ranked choice now illegal thanks to our Republican legislature, but it's still the right thing. Is that a direct democracy? Yes, direct democracy.

Michael Zarick: What's direct democracy? Oh, okay.

Jesse Brown: Gotcha.

Michael Zarick: Yeah.

Jesse Brown: Uh- It is very clear our State House does not want the people to be in charge. Like, they know if they put abortion on the ballot, we would no longer have banned abortion in this state, so they won't let us do it. Totally.

Michael Zarick: Well, uh, I think that wraps it up for us. For anybody who wants to find you, where can they find you?

At Rabble Coffee, honestly.

Jesse Brown: Usually at Rabble

Coffee.

Um, yeah. I'm @jesseforindy on most socials. I think I'm @naptownjbrown on TikTok. Uh, I'm bad at actually figuring out how social [01:16:00] media works, and so there's, uh, been a lot of, like, just mistakes I made that caused that problem. Uh, or, uh, 317-370-7079 is my cellphone number.

Um, or jesse@jesseforindy.com is my email address. Like, anybody should that could reach out to me. If you call me, I am a millennial, so I won't answer the phone. Uh, but then my voicemail says, "What are you doing? Why are you trying to leave a voicemail? Please text me or email me." Uh, but if you e- if you leave a voicemail, maybe you'll make it into my TikTok videos, apparently.

Uh-

Michael Zarick: Oh, that was a good video.

Jesse Brown: It was pretty funny.

Michael Zarick: Uh, also, if you text him saying, "Can I call you?" He will most likely- Yeah ... respond with yes. So that's-

Jesse Brown: Yeah. I, I get on calls all the time, just not out of the blue like that. Come on.

Michael Zarick: Uh, great. Uh, thank you guys for being here. Yeah. Happy birthday. Happy Birthday Thursday's Indy.

Please don't sing the song. Uh-

Jesse Brown: Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday- ... to you. Happy Birthday Third [01:17:00] Space Indy. Happy birthday to you.

Michael Zarick: I wanna cut- Also, uh- I

Jesse Brown: wanna cut to that just zooming in on your

Michael Zarick: angry

Jesse Brown: face.

Michael Zarick: Uh, I think more importantly, my two-year wedding anniversary with my wife is coming up in, like, two weeks.

Jesse Brown: Aww.

Michael Zarick: Yeah. June 9th. Um, why you laughing? I was gonna sing Happy Anniversary. Is there a, is there a Happy Anniversary song? No.

Uh, I wanna thank Patina Art Gallery for hosting us today. Yeah. I wanna thank our sponsors, City Rising and Proformus. I also wanna thank Circle City Mutual Aid. If you have not talked to them today, this is a wonderful organization here in Indianapolis doing wonderful work on the ground with people who need their help, so talk to them if you haven't.

Um, yeah. But you can find me at thirdspaceindy on Instagram. Uh, cool. I think we're done. Oh, shout-out to Jennasen for the intro music. One day we'll find her. I don't- [01:18:00] I need to get her on the podcast. Uh, thank you much. Thank you so much for watching or listening, wherever you are. Uh, goodbye.

Goodbye. Yay.