Listen while you read

Youtube — — Apple Pods

Intro

Introduction paragraph

Can be found here:

• Links to listen

• Links of references from the show

• Episode Summary

• Episode Transcript

Third Space Indy is supported by:

• City Rising

Put your email in here, and I’ll send you this blog every week with the episode release.

Important links and mentions

• Hang Doan

• Hanibear

Third Space Indy is supported by:

• City Rising

Episode Summary

Hang Doan is a local drag queen, artist, influencer, and model. This week, Michael sits down with Hang at the Spades Park playground to talk about their gender journey, figuring out life, and how to become hot, rich, and famous. Enjoy the conversation :)

Sponsors:
City Rising (cityrising.org)
Proformus Urban Planning & Design

Intro music: Scared Rabbit by Jennasen

Timestamps
00:00 Cold Open
00:22 Support Third Space Indy
02:11 What Is a Third Place
02:41 Meet Hang Doan
03:31 Thrifting Fit Check
05:47 Vietnamese Hoosier
06:50 Drag King 101
09:46 Trans Masc and Gender Roles
12:09 Gender Beyond the Binary
15:12 Hanibear Shop Live Doodles
18:30 Booked Gigs and Weddings
20:45 Modeling Agency Reality Check
27:24 School Success Mindset
30:51 Content Creation and Drag Digest
39:12 Food Pantry No Shame
41:56 Transitioning In Public
47:04 Canned Questions
49:27 Indy Drag Theater Story
53:34 Froyo Nostalgia Debate
58:41 Learning Drag And Auditions
01:04:33 What Success Means
01:10:01 Be Your Own Ally
01:14:50 Plugs And Farewell

Episode Transcript

Hang Doan

Michael Zarick: [00:00:00] What do you want out of life?

Hang Doan: I wanna be hot, rich, and famous and never work a day again. No. Hey.

Speaker: Hey, my name's Michael Zarick of Third Space Indy, and I was just laid off my job again.

Speaker 2: And then they said to me, "Great job, but you're too sexy."

Speaker 3: That's a little bit annoying. Perfect.

Speaker: We can go from there. Yeah. I don't plan to stop doing Third Space Indy or put anything behind a paywall, but I could use some help, and here are some of my past guests to tell you why.

Speaker 2: Just a disclaimer, we're gonna go down a rabbit hole.

Speaker 4: I moved to Indianapolis, and it absolutely changed my life.

Speaker 2: I agree with you completely.

Speaker: There's, like, so much to unpack there.

Speaker 2: I'm not trying to be rude, but there's times when it's just like- "Oh, no, I'm scared." And I was like, "Why? What are you scared for?"

I love Indy for being Indy. Like, it's-

Speaker: It's a collection of, of stories- Mm ... of people I've met, of things I've seen.

Speaker 4: This is always a space for you to show up, and we're waiting for you.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Check it out. It's nice.

Speaker 5: You can have anything that you want in [00:01:00] here. It just is what it is.

Speaker 4: And I feel like I do try to be, like, an authentic person.

Speaker: So Indianapolis, like, just the whole of the city, the whole city.

Speaker 5: It is a flaming hot dumpster fire that is- ... um, I love it.

Speaker: Right now, I spend about 25 hours a week working on Third Space Indy.

Speaker 3: And it's a weekly party, so he's there nonstop. It is easier said than done, 100%.

Speaker: Lots of coffee dates, worn down shoes, and time spent editing.

So if you've ever enjoyed the podcast, enjoyed random clips or reels, or come to an event of mine, a couple of bucks could h- really help me out right now. So if you'd go to support.thirdspaceindy.com, I would really appreciate it.

Speaker 5: You've said that so beautifully. Like, the way you articulated that. You just popped off and made this out of, like, scraps, and you were like, "Oh, yeah, I just felt like it."

Speaker 4: Hey, man. It's a good time, man. Woo.

Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Pump, pump.

[00:02:00]

Michael Zarick: Hello. My name is Michael Zarick, and this is Third Space Indy. In 1989, a man named Ray Oldenburg wrote a book called The Great Good Place, and in this book he coined a term called the third place.

This describes a place that is outside of your work and outside of your home that you can go be with others, exist, and build community. So I've made it my goal to find people all over Indianapolis who are doing their very best to make these types of places. Today's guest is somebody who I have been aware of for a very short amount of time.

We met at MOKAO officially, um, which is the coffee and chocolate event, uh, run by Epicurean here. And they ... Since then, I have sort of followed them on Instagram, and I've really sort of, [00:03:00] uh, enjoyed watching their personal journey, playing with gender, um, existing as a wonderful, joyful human being, and also just, uh, exuding fashion as they are in this very moment, uh, which brings me to introduce today's guest, Hang Doan.

Hang Doan: Hi.

Michael Zarick: Yeah. How you doing?

Hang Doan: I'm a artist, filmmaker, beginner drag performer, and I'm doing good. How are you?

Michael Zarick: I'm doing amazing. I'm so excited to be here, uh, talking to you on this slide at Spa- what Spades Park. Um, and you said you wanted to show off your outfit. So like, what ... Describe- This is- Describe what you're holding and what you're wearing

Hang Doan: a bag from Goodwill, pants from Goodwill, top from Akira, this scarf from Goodwill. I'm a very heavy thrifter. Bracelets from my friends. This gold Coach bracelet I found washed up on a beach in LA. What? Wait. And I was like, "Oh my gosh."

Michael Zarick: It's a what bracelet?

Hang Doan: It's like a gold Coach bracelet.

Michael Zarick: [00:04:00] Oh, so it's like nice.

Hang Doan: Yeah, it's like a nice ... And it was just in the sand. I have a gut feeling when I go thrifting, even if the clothing item isn't visible, like something in my heart will just tell me, like, "Reach your hand into the shelf." Like, even if it's not visible. And I find really good stuff. Every single time it's like, it's like a feeling and I need to stop right there and reach my hand in.

Michael Zarick: It's like the, the clothing piece is giving off an aura,

Hang Doan: and it's like- Yeah. And the same thing happened at the beach. It was like, I was like, "Look in the sand right now." I was like looking at the sky the whole day and I was like, "Oh." I could feel- It's just, I, I don't think anyone's gonna really believe me, but like all my best clothing pieces are because I have that feeling in my heart.

Michael Zarick: I believe you. I don't know. I don't s- I don't see a reason not to.

Hang Doan: I don't know. Anyways, I showed you my bag, now I can put it behind me.

Michael Zarick: I just want to describe the bag a little bit. I want to describe the fit- Oh, yes ... overall. Yes. So the bag is like brown with a floral en- not engraving. What is the word? S- sewing?

S- what's the word for when the- I don't know how to

Hang Doan: explain it. I almost left this bag behind, but then I kept turning around. [00:05:00] It's the gut feeling again. I was like, "You have to take it," and it's my most worn one.

Michael Zarick: And then you're wearing, um- Not platform heels. I need to know the word

Hang Doan: They're, they're kinda- Wedges?

Wedges? That's the word. I don't know.

Michael Zarick: Uh, and then you're wearing sort of, uh, dark, darker jeans with, like, big old pockets, which are a cool, uh, form factor, and then you've got a brown top which matches with the bag well, and then you've got a cheetah print scarf on.

Hang Doan: An ocean seashell belt. I love the ocean.

That's totally something that's part of my aesthetic. And then I don't know what it is about this, like, silk pattern, but my parents always grew up with, like, every Vietnamese household has these, like, big paintings with this type of pattern. Oh.

Michael Zarick: I didn't know that about- So I think that's just

Hang Doan: why I felt drawn to it.

It just remind me of, like, my grandparents-

Michael Zarick: Yeah ... a little bit.

Hang Doan: That's the fit.

Michael Zarick: So you said you're second generation.

Hang Doan: Yes.

Michael Zarick: So you were born here? Yes, I was- Where are

Hang Doan: you from? ... born here. Oh, you can't just, you can't, not during Asian History Month. You can't ask that. I'm just kidding.

Michael Zarick: What, like, what city in the [00:06:00] US?

Hang Doan: Um, my family is from Vietnam. Um, I almost, I almost was able to grow up in San Jose, but I think my dad's family immigrated to Indiana. My parents met at, like, a family member's wedding in San Jose, and my dad googled, like, top 10 best places to raise a family, and Indiana came out higher at the time.

That's awesome. So that's where I was born and raised. It's like,

Michael Zarick: it's like number seven was San Jose, number six was Indiana. Indiana. What city in Indiana? And it's like that was the coin

Hang Doan: flip, and I, I rue that day- ... every single moment. Wait, wait, what

Michael Zarick: city in Indiana, though?

Hang Doan: Um, Fishers. Oh, okay, okay. Fishers High School.

Okay. It was when it was, like, flat and there was nothing, and now, like, Fishers is becoming, like, a mega city Carmel copy- ... which is, like, so strange to witness in real time, but It's cool And now you

Michael Zarick: live over here in Windsor Park It's

Hang Doan: great. Yeah ...

Michael Zarick: which is dope.

Hang Doan: Yeah.

Michael Zarick: Um, I wanna talk about you as a drag king.

This is not a term that I think the average person thinks about a lot, [00:07:00] because obviously, like, you hear about, like, drag bingo, you hear about drag, uh, drag reading time, like that type of thing is in the news. But generally, that's associated with drag queens. So for people who may not know what a drag king is, can you explain and talk about your experience starting that?

Hang Doan: It's just, um, drag king is just, like, hyper-masculinity. Like, a drag is... Um, I might not be the best person because I'm still learning about, like, the history, and I'm very new to this space, and so I'm just sitting back and seeing what I can absorb from people. Mm-hmm. But, you know, uh, I think it's just an exaggerated performance of gender.

Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I- I... In contrast to, like, drag queens, it's sort of like, oh, have crazy chest hair. Yeah ... have, like, extremely sharp cheeks and, like, a, a beautiful bushy mustache, like that type of thing.

Hang Doan: My first experience ever seeing a drag king was I got, like, a full-ride, um, scholarship to go to O4U, which is Out For Undergrad.

Mm-hmm ... and it's like a queer [00:08:00] conference in New York. And New York is, like, is, like, where all the gay people are. And so, like, like, they, they walked- Every single one

Michael Zarick: of them. ...

Hang Doan: took us on a walking tour, and they were like, "This is where Stonewall happened." Mm-hmm. "And this is... Um, these are, like, very important places to queer history."

I was like, um... And then they brought in drag performers at the night, which is so... I don't know if you've been to a conference before, but this is so different from the typical conference environment. Oh, you

Michael Zarick: mean just, like, any conference, but this is like-

Hang Doan: Just any conference But this is, like, they had a nice dinner for us, and I was like, "Wow, this is all because I'm gay?

This is pretty cool." I, like ... Um, and then they had a drag king come out. His name was King Molasses. I remember he had, like, a pink feathery scarf boa. He had, like, a thick beard, um, really cool look, and, like, a, like, very suave personality. So I was like, "Oh, this is so exciting." And then a lot of people say th- they should make a drag king version of RuPaul's Drag Race, and there is already.

There's a few shows. One of them is King of Drag. King Molasses won [00:09:00] the first season No And I'm like, "I got to see him", and then a year later he wins the first ever season. I was like, "This is so cool." And that kind of set the trajectory for me.

Michael Zarick: Yeah. Like, what about... So that was your... Was that your first experience with, like, drag king stuff?

Hang Doan: I knew about it. Like, um, I know about it. Typically, like, the features are, like, thicker brows, but then you see, like, people mix and match these all the time. We just had Ciara Mist from Indianapolis-

Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.

Hang Doan: Yeah, I know that person ... go onto RuPaul, but their drag, like, in the local city, I see them do, like, drag king stuff, too.

Yeah. They're, they're very, like, fluid and, like, incredible. So I'm... I, like... My perspective on gender is so blurred now, 'cause it's just what you name it.

Michael Zarick: Yeah, definitely. I, I, I love that you s- uh, do that. I was telling you about your reel. I'm gonna say short form video, because that, it, this is, is, uh- ... platform nonspecific, um, where you were talking about, like, using your femme face to...

So you... sorry, let me [00:10:00] back up just a second. Uh, you are an out, uh, trans masc individual. Yes. Right? Trans masculine. Mm-hmm. Meaning you were assigned female at birth, and now you use he/him pronouns.

Hang Doan: Yes.

Michael Zarick: Um-

Hang Doan: He 'cause I'm him.

Michael Zarick: So good. Um, so the, the reel that I'm thinking of is, like, you said, "I'm using my feminine face to pay for my, uh, transition surgery," which I think is so good.

And, like, I was telling, um, the previous guest, um, off-camera that, like, my entire life I have, like, really hated gender roles. Like, this idea of, like, sticking to a singular existence in whatever way that means. Like, it never made sense to me that, like, uh... Like, I had, uh, like, G.I. Joe-esque things growing up, but, like, those are basically dolls that are, that are just men.

Like So, like, I... It never, it never computed to me. And, like, I played video games, which are, like, so... Like, obviously you associate video games with, like, men a [00:11:00] lot, but, like, so many women play video games. It's, like, kind of, like, a... Frankly, video games are, like, kind of a girly thing to do in, like, the You know?

But it doesn't mean anything.

Hang Doan: Can I tell you a fun fact, speaking- Please ... of video games? There's this game called MovieStarPlanet, and it had a up-and-coming rise during the time of, like, Club Penguin, webcams. That was like, my, my weapon of choice was MovieStarPlanet.

Michael Zarick: MovieStarPlanet?

Hang Doan: And I had my main girl account, but I also created, like, a side boy account.

Michael Zarick: Mm.

Hang Doan: And, and I would dress him up, and then I would go into chat rooms, and it was really fun. And then, I don't know. The online, the online game culture under there, you just had to be there to understand, but people would, would do things like, "Type one, two, three to date," or they, like, they would just walk up to your character and be like, "Will you be my boyfriend?"

Michael Zarick: They did that in Club Penguin, too.

Hang Doan: Was that a Club Penguin thing? I feel like it was. It, I, you just had to be there to understand. I feel really strange explaining it. But, like, I think as a kid, like, when I, when I was, like, on my boy account, and, like, people were like, "Oh my God, boyfriend," like, "You're so cute."

And it's my character. You don't even know what I look like.

Michael Zarick: [00:12:00] Yeah.

Hang Doan: But that was, that was probably the first sign. There were definitely signs. It,

Michael Zarick: like, activated, like, dopamine stuff that you'd never felt before- Yeah ... type thing. Yeah. I was like, "This

Hang Doan: is fun." So the

Michael Zarick: end of the statement, I guess, is sort of like, what do you think about this, uh, idea of, like, escaping gender binaries and, and existing in a certain type of way?

Um, especially as somebody who, um, deals with that daily.

Hang Doan: I think a lot of our gender expectations stem from colonialism. Ugh. And that's, that sounds like a far reach to some people- No.

Michael Zarick: No, you're doing great ...

Hang Doan: but when you put groups into, like, gender categories, it makes it so much easier to control them and to, like, implement them into your country.

Because you look at like so much of queer history was erased with like the Nazi book burnings and so many like colonization periods. We just lost so many books and we still have records. Um, when I went to the Midwest VSA like Vietnamese student [00:13:00] conference, there was a keynote hosted by like a drag performer and she was talking about how like there's...

I'm so bad at-- This is me showing like failing history class. But I do remember her talking about like figures in Vietnamese history that like played with gender expression, like someone else that was assigned female and was known to like play with masculine expression and cut their hair and things like that.

Mm-hmm. Um, existed for years and years of time. Asian culture, men wear dresses, all these things. Like it's-- Even straight men like in Korea, it's very common to like touch up with like makeup throughout the day. Like just touch up your foundation or sun- tinted sunscreen, a little lip balm.

Michael Zarick: Yeah.

Hang Doan: If you wear lip balm in the US as a man, you're like gay or something.

It's like, it's like a whole thing.

Michael Zarick: Yeah.

Hang Doan: Um, and I, I have some thoughts about that as well too. Like even the, the straight Asian men that touch up [00:14:00] their makeup still have homophobic attitudes, but that's just to show you the scope of reference for like all the different ways that femininity shows up in other cultures.

Michael Zarick: Yeah.

Hang Doan: So it's not new to me.

Michael Zarick: And like in India, I don't know the term, I'm failing, but there's a term for like the-- There is a like an explicit, um Oh, no. I there's a language word, all words are language words, um, that explicitly, like, identifies a third or a fourth gender, which I think is really interesting.

Like, it's built into the culture in that way,

Future Michael here. I wanted to make sure I got this correct. So the term I'm referring to is hijra, which is a officially recognized third gender that exists in Southeast Asia, so the, uh, India region, Bangladesh, and Pakistan

um, versus here we, like, stick to such, like, such strict, um, like, uh, binary is the [00:15:00] best word, like yes or no, or like ones and twos. Right. Yeah. Um, I really appreciate that answer. Excellent start by just dropping that it's based in colonialism. I love that.

Hang Doan: A lot of our issues are.

Michael Zarick: Truly. Um, I wanna talk also about, um, so you are, like, killing it in life by my perception. What? Is this true? Is this real chat? Uh, by, just by, maybe it's just social media, like, giving off all the good moments, but, like, I feel like you have recently, uh, for lack of a better term, like, bloomed as a, as an individual.

Like, you have Hanibear Shop, which we've failed to mention so far, which is, uh, I'll let you talk about what that is. Um, you have a, an agency for modeling, question mark, or just all things? I got,

Hang Doan: I got signed to a modeling agency which-

Michael Zarick: And you're a fairly successful, like, just content creator in general.

Yay. So, um, so why don't we go through each of those things, uh, in turn, starting with Hanibear, 'cause I think this is, like, so cool. [00:16:00]

Hang Doan: Yeah. There's a lot of artists in, like, New York, Chicago, Asia, big cities that, like, do live doodle drawing booths so people stand there, um, that you get drawn into. And it's, like, it's different from a caricature 'cause it's a more cutesy style, so it's quicker and then it doesn't really offend anyone 'cause I, I drew your eyes like little dots.

It's like I don't even draw noses. I, I've had customers point that out before. I don't even draw noses. And then I just fence out the little photo booth, and I think, um, I've been doing this for about a year, and the sign that I felt like, oh my God, I've really made it, is, like, this is, like, my fourth box order of cards from Staples, and each box is, like, 500 to 1,000.

It's, it depends on how much I'm restocking, but it's, like, probably- The

Michael Zarick: blank,

Hang Doan: the blank cards. The blanks, the blank cards. So I'm like, "This is my, like, fourth time restocking. That, that means I've drawn, like, over 1,000 people in the city now." In the past year? And I, I'm, I'm, and that's my low estimate. Yeah, in the past year.

Michael Zarick: That's crazy.

Hang Doan: And then one of my customers told me she had a repairman come over who spotted the drawing on her wall- Mm-hmm ... and then said, "Is that a HanYBear drawing?" [00:17:00] And he said him and his partner got one too. Your repairman saw the drawing and recognized it. This means I'm in people's homes. I don't know.

It's like a, maybe it's a small thing, but to me it kinda blows my mind.

Michael Zarick: So you're, um, what's your most, like, frequent, uh, we were talking about Indy Game Market. Mm-hmm. But that's not where you're primary, primarily doing this necessarily. Uh, like, how are you- How do I phrase this? How are you, like, what, where are you setting up your table and doing the drawings?

Hang Doan: Wherever people want me to. Like, uh, Gay Market definitely is, like, where my biggest crowd comes in, 'cause my whole, my whole audience is freaking gay. But, like, um...

Michael Zarick: Maybe even the repairman.

Hang Doan: Even the... That's what I was thinking, 'cause you said, the repairman said partner. Girl or boy partner. Hey, the word partner

Michael Zarick: is supposed to be ambiguous intentionally.

Hang Doan: And I do appreciate when, like, cishet people use the word partner too, 'cause it kinda helps make it normal. Yeah. [00:18:00] It doesn't automatically out somebody as, like, queer or trans.

Michael Zarick: I just have really enjoyed saying wife. Yeah. It's, like, such a crisp word.

Hang Doan: Do you, like, use it as a flex too? I do say partner. You're like, "My wife, my wife, my wife."

Michael Zarick: I use it when I want people to leave me alone. Mm-hmm. It's like, "Ugh, sorry, my wife has to go to bed early. I'll, I'm staying home tonight." Yeah. It's

Hang Doan: such a, it's such a great, like, excuse to, like, leave something you're kind of tired of. It's like, "Oh, my partner, our cat."

Michael Zarick: Yeah. My cat needs me. She needs me. My cat needs me when I get

Hang Doan: it.

Michael Zarick: So, uh, but you also do... Have you been booked for a wedding or anything like that?

Hang Doan: Yeah, I've been booked at, um, a wedding. Shout out Janet. Um- Yo,

Michael Zarick: Janet ... she said- Congratulations ...

Hang Doan: Janet Lovera, she said she was, like, a fan of the channel, and I was like, this is, this is, like, so crazy. Like, I'm so happy to be part of this memory that, like, hopefully this is, like, a one and done thing for you, and you guys stay married forever.

'Cause I was like, I'm like, that's crazy, 'cause then I, like, like, every Christmas party, every [00:19:00] birthday, I'll be there. Like, no, ev- it, it's just, it's, it's very meaningful to me that you chose to have me part of that, like, one-time memory.

Michael Zarick: Whoa. When you do, like, a wedding, when you... Okay, so you, you went, I'm just thinking of the wedding because it's the easiest example.

Because it's, like, a special occasion, are, you're doing the normal drawings for the guests. Are you doing a more zhuzhed up drawing for the bride and groom and/or non-bride and bride, groom, groom, et cetera?

Hang Doan: It's the same drawing. I keep it consistent.

Michael Zarick: That's funny. Uh, how'd you get started as, like, doing this type of art?

Um- Like little doodles ...

Hang Doan: I used to, like, fill sketchbooks like clockwork. Like, I would stay up late drawing. Um, my teachers would yell at me in class for drawing, but it was the same teachers that would keep my drawing pinned up on their wall. Like, even now I still talk to my teachers. Um- And I showed my dad, like, the ugliest Sailor Moon drawing that I made on my iPad, [00:20:00] drawing, like, with my finger, and he's, like, picking it up and, like, very

He's very atypical from, like, an Asian dad in this sense, where he was like, "This is really interesting," gone, and he's, like, tapping the iPad and zooming around. He's like, "Yeah, you should make more of these." It's like, and I'm like, this is a ... I'm, like, looking at the old photo and I'm like, this is so bad. Um, but it's great that he did that because I kept drawing, and I wanted to go to school for animation.

Oh. So I actually made it into San Jose State's animation program, which is, like, notoriously very competitive to get into.

Michael Zarick: Now, if you were born there, maybe- If I was born there- ... you would've, your life trajectory would've been different ...

Hang Doan: right? I think about that all the time. Um, but I also think everything turned out how it needed to, so- Yeah

I don't, I don't mind at all.

Michael Zarick: Um, so what about modeling? Y- first of all, the fit is fire today. Thank you. As we said earlier, um, which goes to show about modeling. So what is like ... Wait, is it a modeling agency? Yeah. It is. [00:21:00] Okay. So y- So- What does this look like? I've never even- I know ... considered modeling.

Hang Doan: I didn't even know either, because I didn't even think this could be, like, a path for me.

I was kind of, I saw, like, one of my classmates from high school was doing modeling stuff, and I just Googled it. A lot of stuff, a lot of people ask, "How do you get into this?" Google, YouTube, and then do. Like, it, it- ... it, it's such a free resource. I, I just Googled, like, that agency, and then I applied to all the ones in, like, Indiana and the Midwest region.

Um- And I thought I was being pranked, like when I got an email back. Or like, I just didn't believe this type of thing. Like, I thought, okay, so when they emailed me I think they were already ready to sign me on, and they were like, "You just need to meet with one of our agents to get the paperwork done." Oh,

Michael Zarick: they looked at a photo of you.

They're like, "This person has got- I submitted like- ... they have whatever it is." And you're like- ... five

Hang Doan: digitals. And I actually thought the meeting was going so poorly because the, the agent representative was like Zoom calling and going through like the five photos I submitted. And they were like, "Actually, these are more editorial.

In the Midwest they look for more commercial, so you need to be [00:22:00] smiling in this one." "Um, the shadow on your face here is kind of distracting. Um, make sure you have like a even lighting. Your background's too distracting. Posing here, again, I would just push your angles a little more." And he was just like, why was he just reading me down?

But these are all things that helped me improve. And I was like, oh my God, they're totally ... That was totally like a critique feedback, like they do not want me. And then he was like, "Well, I'm gonna go ahead and send you some things to look over, and then if that sounds good with you, just get back to me in like this week."

And I was like, "Does that mean I'm signed?" And I like showed the email to my partner, and he's like, "That's a contract." And I was like, "Does that mean I'm in?" And he's like, "What do you think that means?" I was like, "I, I just don't believe it, you know?"

Michael Zarick: I'm like dumbfounded listening to you. I- Yeah.

Hang Doan: I was like, wait, this crazy.

And in the-

Michael Zarick: So what has your experience been so far, like doing that?

Hang Doan: Wow, it is so different from TV. Like as in- ... like I'm broke now. I think I'm more broke than before I started. Um-

Michael Zarick: You did drive to Cincinnati last week to-

Hang Doan: Nobody [00:23:00] tells you this when you start modeling. Uh, if you're not like nepotism or you don't have parents in the industry, it's like really freaking hard.

I spend more money on gas transporting myself to shoots, 'cause I drive myself. And let me tell you, driving is my number one fear. Like, I fear it worse than death. I would honestly-

Michael Zarick: As you should, frankly. I ... Listen- No ... this is an anti-driving podcast. This

Hang Doan: is anti driving. I, where's the subway? We s- we just, you and me need to take some spoons, start digging in this playground-

and I think in a few weeks time we can get something done.

Michael Zarick: I think so.

Hang Doan: I ... And then you also have to pay for your own like, like skincare, haircare, take good care of yourself in general.

Michael Zarick: Oh, yeah.

Hang Doan: All of these things. 'Cause you can't

Michael Zarick: show up looking raggedy. Yeah.

Hang Doan: Yeah. Well, um, somewhere, uh, maybe I'm not allowed to talk about that.

But, but basically like no tattoos, no hair dyes without consulting the agent first. Yeah Things like that. Which is, which is like, that's chill.

Michael Zarick: Are you, are you able to talk about pay at all? Yeah. Um, uh, so like when you did the Cincinnati [00:24:00] thing where you also did the content about that really cool like- Yeah

uh, Asian snack shop bakery?

Hang Doan: Yeah. I w- Or coffee shop ... I just went exploring.

Michael Zarick: How much did you get paid to go over there? So Cincinnati's like an hour and a half away-ish.

Hang Doan: That one probably, I actually paid them because I needed my digitals refreshed for the spring. And then when they took it, they just took it with a digicam, like in the first floor of the office, and I was like, "Wait, I could have done this at home."

But I brought Hanibear Shop drawings stuff with me- Ah ... and I drew the agent, and then I was like, "Can you show me the two agents that aren't here today?" And she showed me photos, and I drew them, too, and I was like, "One thing about me is I know there's a lot of people in this agency, and I am not just a model.

I am an artist, and I am everything else around it, so I need to use that to help me a little bit." Yeah, you did like a business card type thing. So I was like, "Let me give them something that helps them remember me a little more." Um, and th- that was my intention. I was like, I know I'm gonna lose money, and I have a feeling this is something I can probably do at home.

But it, it means [00:25:00] something to show up face-to-face with someone. Mm-hmm. So that's what I did. So what is... But you

Michael Zarick: said you've been losing money. Like, what's the average, like, modeling, especially, I'm gonna, no offense- I guess it depends ... I'm gonna call you low-tier model. No. That's okay. Uh, what would... Re- regardless of your personal looks- Mm-hmm

um, like what's your, like, average, like, take-home for like a gig?

Hang Doan: Um, it really depends. Like- 'Cause then the agency takes a cut. What do I walk away with? Like, one time it was like 50 bucks and a dream. I was like, I was like, "'Cause gas prices are so bad right now." So I was like, "Oh, shoot. 4-" It cost

Michael Zarick: $50 to drive to Cincinnati, which is what you said

Hang Doan: $400, I'm so excited. And then agency takes their 20%, that becomes 270 or... Not, I'm not doing the math right. Yeah, yeah. It becomes something else. Gas, um, I bought myself lunch, that was my own decision, and then all these things. But I will say the thing that you might think of when you say modeling is, like, runway.

Yeah. And then runway is very restrictive, and then I'm gonna be so blunt, it's [00:26:00] terrible about, like, eating disorders and, like, shaping the kind of person you are. And I'm, I'm very defiant in the sense that I love that drag you see every type of body and every type of person, and you can't, you can't Bella Hadid me.

I'm sorry, it's not gonna happen. I, I love my individuality a lot. And, um, I guess, where was I going with this? All that to say, like, you think runway is the main modeling industry, but actually, my scarf, actually the main industry is commercial.

Michael Zarick: Yeah. Like- Because- ... the photos at Target or whatever, right? The photos

Hang Doan: at Target.

Um, if these cars driving by, there's a photo somewhere on there. My first, like, shoot that I ever got booked for that I just posted- Mm ... was for, like, Ohio School of Health Sciences. So they put... They had me pose as a student, and then they had me switch places with the other actors and had me pose as a, like a health- I

Michael Zarick: think I saw you post that, actually

student with,

Hang Doan: like, a lab coat. So I sent that photo to my dad. I was like, [00:27:00] he never pressured me to be a doctor, by the way. That is not something he ever did. The, the

Michael Zarick: stereotype didn't, uh, last. Yeah. But I

Hang Doan: sent him a photo, and I was like, "This is what I would've looked like as a doctor." That's the fun part of

Michael Zarick: modeling. What was his reply? He was like, "LOL." I was like, "Thanks, Dad." He's like- Thanks ... "That would never would've happened."

Hang Doan: Yeah. And I think because my, my dad never pressured me, both my parents, um, I think they were proud to have a creative child. And even though I don't talk to my mom anymore, like, that's something I'm, I'm very grateful to them for because I graduated at 16 from high school, got my associate's at 17.

Michael Zarick: 16 in high school?

Hang Doan: Got my bachelor's in film at 19.

Michael Zarick: Are you a genius?

Hang Doan: N- I, I don't think so. You're 20 years old

Michael Zarick: now.

Hang Doan: Yeah. I don't, I don't really think so 'cause I wa- I'm gonna be pretty honest to you, I was pretty behind in class and then, like, in the AP and honors classes kids get really freaking competitive.

Michael Zarick: Yeah.

Hang Doan: Um, but I think because I took the pressure off myself and I kind of ... I've, I've grappled with, like, death anxiety since I was [00:28:00] a little kid- Mm-hmm ... and so I've always been able to take a step back and be like, "I think when I'm 40 I'm not gonna care if I pass this test or not. I'm just gonna care if I finish the job and graduate."

And so kids in the class would be like, "I got a 99.9. What'd you get? 99.8? Oof, you're basically, like, set up for failure." And then they'd be like, "Hang, what'd you get?" That's so real. And I'd be like, "A 70." And they're like, "Oh my God. Are y- I'm so sorry." I'm like, "No, it's okay. I'm glad I passed." Like, I was just always happy to, like, make it, and I think that consistency and then just understanding, like, I'm just here to learn what I can.

I'm not gonna remember everything.

Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.

Hang Doan: But it's gonna be okay. Like, I'm not gonna die. Um, I walked away from graduation with, like, so many cords that, like, it was getting tangled with while I walk. It was, like, weighing my shoulders down. Um- It's just to say, like, take the pressure off of yourself. It's never that serious.

Nothing's that serious. I am hard.

Michael Zarick: You remember when you were, like, a kid and, like, I don't know if you had the exper- the experience, but I did, whereas, like, have you ever heard the term, like, your permanent record? It's like, "Oh, I got [00:29:00] detention- Ah ... so now it's on my permanent record." It's like, oh, the dude, when you're like 35 years old hiring you at the library is gonna be like- He does not care

he's like, "Oh, you got detention when you were 16? Die."

Hang Doan: Yeah. I think my teachers saw that in me, too, because there were a lot of times where I, like, probably should have been failed in a way. Like, I- math was not a good subject. I always stayed for, like, an hour after class and my teacher would try to help me, and she'd be like, "Did you get that?"

I'd be like, "Not at all." And I was so close to, like, failing her class, but I was like, "Can I please pass? I, I really want this honor cord." I'm very competitive still. It's like I don't care, but I also do care a lot. So I was like, "Oh, I just need, like, one more point to push my GPA over to get the honor cord."

But I totally understand. I, I was like, "I'll do another assignment. I'll retake a, to a test. Like, I'll do something." And she was like, "Well, you would have showed up to class this day, and I assume you would have gotten it right." And so she pushed me- ... uh, just that little bump. But, like, so many, so many, I think, um, [00:30:00] they saw, they saw that I really was trying.

I don't think I naturally have it like that, but I have a work ethic and that I'm very good about not giving up.

Michael Zarick: Yeah.

Hang Doan: I, I was like, one thing about me is it'll always be done. Like, even if my homework was completely wrong, I would finish it. But then when they correct me, that's like you learn faster that way.

Mm-hmm. I don't know how to explain it, just getting it done versus if I never touched anything at all, I fell behind and I just gave up on everything, then I wouldn't have learned anything.

Michael Zarick: Agreed. Totally. That's like the, in the start of the podcast I would write, like, um, production notes of like, "Oh, here's what I did wrong at this, in this production, so I'll do it correctly next time."

Hang Doan: Isn't that better than if you just said, "I'm not ready to do it," and you never had produced anything?

Michael Zarick: 100%. People always ask, like, "How do you do a podcast?" I would just like, "You just have to do it." Do. Just do. Um- Simple. Content creation. Yeah. Which we're doing ri- we're doing, we're creating content right now.

Uh- I have really enjoyed watching your [00:31:00] reels. Uh, first of all, uh, you start most of your reels with, "Hello, I'm a starving artist," which I have learned in this conversation that is true. Um Not for long,

Hang Doan: not for long, not for long. Not for long.

Michael Zarick: Do, as you say. Um, and then also, there's where you're often showing off, like you're doing a little bit of food content, food con- content creation, but you're also doing, um, a lot of like gender existence content.

Um, and then there's also like a little bit of art also, or like, uh, I guess when I watch your YouTube, you're also doing like K-pop dances, which I thought was funny. So like what do you think about, uh, your own content? Like what do you, what do you got here doing?

Hang Doan: I do everything. Like it's a great way to blend my passions.

The show I'm working on right now that's hopefully gonna be released either like soon or near this episode's timing, um, is Drag Digest, and it's a series of interviews at restaurants with drag performers. Mm. And then we go off to a studio space and they teach me a new skill every episode.

Michael Zarick: Mm.

Hang Doan: [00:32:00] And the point is to show that like y- you can start from ground zero, know nothing, and if you just physically put yourself in the space and do it, you're just gonna get better.

You don't have to be exceptional every time you practice, but if you're just putting yourself out there, it's gonna happen. And the reason I did like a restaurant style format interview is because I'm really inspired by Mythical Kitchen, Josh Scherer's Last Meal Series- Ah. So good ... because he's so well-researched, and I think you can see celebrities start to understand it's not a media appearance, it's like a real conversation.

And food reveals a lot about someone's emotions and like nostalgic and what they're attached to. And like food is the first ground of getting people to open up. You see a lot of people with racist attitudes. I see the most racist people go ham at like a margarita and taco night. Like make it make sense.

So I still don't think we've- That's like

Michael Zarick: the, the common thing my wife and I always talk about- ... is like every town has like the Mexican restaurant [00:33:00] that they love, even though they're like also advocating for the deportation of those people. It's like you're, you're messed up in the mind.

Hang Doan: Um, so we haven't fully bridged the gap yet, but it is the first step, and it's the first thing that you can call out and be like, "Why can you literally eat our culture and not love us back?"

Michael Zarick: Banger. And it's

Hang Doan: gonna start with food and conversation, and so I'm really excited for what Drag Digest is gonna do.

Michael Zarick: Um, speaking of, uh, Last Meals, I watched his recent interview with Alton Brown-

Hang Doan: Oh, man ... and I- I cried.

Michael Zarick: Oh, you actually cried? I, oh, I, I don't cry very often, so, like,

Hang Doan: I- I, uh, it's really easy to make me cry, actually.

But I did,

Michael Zarick: I did, like, nearly shed a tear, 'cause I was like, "This is, like, the most beautiful, like, soft boy conversation of all time." It's, like, two dudes who have weird parental relationships, who have, like, loosely traumatized or actually traumatizing childhoods, eating foods that [00:34:00] remind them of childhood the entire time.

Yeah. I was like, "This is, like, really beautiful." And, like, Alton Brown is, like, such a compelling individual in a way that, like- I grew

Hang Doan: up with, like, his, his, uh, TV series and- Yeah,

Michael Zarick: me too.

Hang Doan: Yeah.

Michael Zarick: Um, wow, I'm really excited for that. So what's it called? Drag-

Hang Doan: Drag Digest.

Michael Zarick: Drag Digi- which is, uh, I see the- Little play on words

I see the double entendre there. Little play on words. Um, who's the first one you're releasing it with?

Hang Doan: Cici Pasion from the Indy Drag Theater. So she just played Anne Boleyn in Six, and she's a trans woman and drag queen, and it's super cool. Um, you'll have to watch that episode to see those conversations.

Absolutely. Oh,

Michael Zarick: yeah. Plug, plug. But working

Hang Doan: on it with Jay Grillo, who was just on here, Cecilia Gomez, and Nico, and they're amazing people. They're, they're- we are trying to secure grant funding for the episode, because I'm like, I want to pay them. I want to pay Cici for her time. Mm-hmm. And I also want to [00:35:00] show, like, any time social change happens, it's for economic reasons before it ever is for the good of the heart.

Facts. 'Cause if it was for the good of the heart, we wouldn't even be here. And so showing, like, people are willing to put their money behind a message like this is the first step to making political change.

Michael Zarick: Mm.

Hang Doan: I'm, I'm not the best at, like, history and policy and understanding everything. Like, I'm very much the type that's still learning and listening to everybody.

Um, like, and I'm in a stupid, silly, fake mustache- ... and, like-

Michael Zarick: I think you, uh, it looks good on you ... my, my brows

Hang Doan: are glued to the back of my forehead, so, like, I'm not- Wait, hold on.

Michael Zarick: Can you pull your hair back? Can I see? They really are. There's, there's,

Hang Doan: like, the brow that's drawn over the, the other brow that's been baked in.

So I'm not really the person you should go to for, like, your political and moral advice, but I, I do want to help in that way, and I think performance and the work you put out there is always part of resilience.

Michael Zarick: Beautiful. [00:36:00] Um, yo, shout-out to Jay Grillo always.

Hang Doan: If Jay ever gets into drag- I feel

Michael Zarick: like, I feel like thing is like ... I always liked the word, term, so there's, there's king, queen, and themperor. Themperor. I like that too. I like that too. So rather than like, uh, you know, obviously the gender terms of king and queen, you have the, the still, uh, uh, honorific, but, uh Hello, my monarch.

What's up, my monarch? I always ... Oh, have you ever heard the term, um, so y- you said chat earlier. Mm-hmm. Uh, so like saying, "Hey, chat," as like just addressing people as a, an excellent like, I think they said it's like a non-g- an excellent, like non-gendered, like y'all basically in a way.

Hang Doan: It's also like a thing that like Gen Z and Millennials do of like we're addressing like a third, it's almost like a third gender.

I don't know. It's like a third pronoun that doesn't exist 'cause who is chat? Like who are you talking to?

Michael Zarick: Yeah, it's like a, it's a, yeah ... who are you talking to? It's like a fourth gender in a way where it's like [00:37:00] non-existent. Like, it's a ethereal other. Yeah. But also non-gendered. It's a weird, it's a really interesting like phenomena that's just sprouted out of the internet basically.

Are you, are you in school right now?

Hang Doan: No, I'm not. So like I said before, I got my bachelor's when I was 19- That's okay ... in film and video production.

Michael Zarick: This is where the, the you're a genius came from. So like your e- your existence right now is modeling, content creation, and, uh, doing like, and doing drag and like existing.

Hang Doan: And it looks really cool on social media, and I, I... Trust me, like I'm very grateful for this job. Mm-hmm. Um, but it's like if I scrounge together all these really cool jobs, I might just be able to barely make rent, and that's really cool to me. I have tried to apply before for like, um, actually like this past few weeks, um, my partner and I both applied for Kan-Kan.

Like, I went in for my interview- Yeah ... and then they went in right after me, and I like looked at them like as we were crossing [00:38:00] paths, and I was like, "I hope they hire you." Um, and then they got the job. But I, I've been trying to get like a cafe or retail job, and then my friends are like, "What are you doing getting a retail job?"

And I was like, "Because the hours are consistent." Like, I don't know. Like, one of my recent... Like Bottleworks Market got rained out, and so that affected like if I was able to make rent or not. Mm. I was like just barely made it, and I was like, "Ooh, that was a close call," because I'm very dependent on if there's gonna be a market this month and then what's the turnout for that gonna be.

Like, I didn't know, like if there's something big like a Colts game in the city, then people won't show up to the market. That affects my income. So yeah, I don't know. What was your original question though? 'Cause I was tying it back to something.

Michael Zarick: What was my... Oh, I just, I, I basically just made a statement about your existence- Just ask it

as a person.

Hang Doan: Yeah. You

Michael Zarick: know what I mean? Just like, uh, uh, 'cause... Well, I guess, oh, you know what it was, is that I was, like, thinking about [00:39:00] listening to your videos, and you said, "I'm a s-" You say, "I'm a starving artist," and at some point you said, "I'm a starving student," I think, or, like, a college student. Yeah. Uh, and I think maybe I mushed all those timelines together in my mind.

Hang Doan: Yeah. If I still pass for a student, that's fire. My... Because of graduating early, my, like, Crimson card is still active for, like, until 2027 or something.

Michael Zarick: Let's go.

Hang Doan: So I, I've been swiping that hard. I, I'll be transparent about this. I'm a little embarrassed to admit it, but I think being transparent's important.

Like, I'll swipe that at the food pantry. Like, and- I don't think

Michael Zarick: you should be ... I

Hang Doan: don't know if people will get confused by that, 'cause they're like, "Oh my God, you're modeling. Like, what are you doing at the food pantry?"

Michael Zarick: And then- 'Cause I'm

Hang Doan: gonna use this card until the school doesn't let me use it anymore.

Like, I need to eat.

Michael Zarick: Well, there's that, and, like, you also have said it explicitly, but people have this perception about modeling, about, you know, my wife's job as a newsperson, about- Mm ... a lot of jobs that sort of seem glamorous-

Yeah ...

but, like, are realistically just, like, extremely exploitative and, like, not high-paying at [00:40:00] all.

Oh, yeah. Uh, uh- And like- ... and like you shouldn't feel shameful about that. Mm-hmm. Um, we were talking about, like, the, the food pantry. Um, I was ex- explaining that when I lived in West Lafayette, I would go volunteer at the food pantry. When you say food pantry, do you mean, like, a convenience store, or do you mean, like, the-

Hang Doan: Um, our s- our, like, school campus center.

Anybody that's an IU Indianapolis student, your tuition is paying for this. Use that card. Um, some weeks are kinda hit or miss. Some weeks are really good. Um, go to Paws Pantry. It's in the campus center right where the bathrooms are on the first floor. Use it. You're already paying for it. It's such a good resource.

Oh, facts.

Michael Zarick: But, uh, I'm thinking of, like, a food, food pantry in terms of, like, low income type thing. Yeah, for sure. So when we lived in West Lafayette, we would go volunteer at that place, and at some point I was like, "Oh, I should probably be taking food from here." Uh, 'cause I didn't have a lot of, like, income at that time.

Yeah. And, like, it was really embarrassing. Like it, like you said, where it's like, I feel a little weird about it, but it's also like you [00:41:00] gotta- understand your position in the world, I think sometimes and just, like, it's, it shouldn't be embarrassing to know what you need and get it, I think.

Hang Doan: Yeah.

Michael Zarick: Um-

Hang Doan: And, like, like, full transparency too is, like, sometimes the restaurant will trade me food for the video and stuff Mm-hmm Guys, that's how I got through college.

Like, a lot of times, like, thank you so much, like, to, um ... I almost, is it me, like, searching for parent figures in, like, the restaurant owners 'cause I feel like they're taking care of me- ... when they, like, bring me extra stuff and stuff. Like, in particular, like, Luz and Omar from Macizo. Ah. Um, Aji and Tivi from Wisanggeni Pawan, like, like- Shout

Michael Zarick: out.

Hang Doan: Is this a parasocial relationship with them? But I do feel kind of like a loved child when I come there.

Michael Zarick: They made me feel like a lo- both, both of those, uh, couples made me feel like a loved child when I met them, so- Yeah ... I totally understand. Um-

Hang Doan: Thank you guys for helping feed me through school.

Michael Zarick: Um, I have one last question and then we'll [00:42:00] move on to what I call the canned questions.

Um, I, I just wanna thank you for coming on the podcast. Like, it really means a lot to me. Um, and I think people like yourself are under a lot of duress at this time just in existence. Um, what do you think about, like, your, like- When it comes to, like, your personal safety, like putting yourself out there, I am a, a transmasc individual, somebody who is genuinely openly targeted by our government, openly targeted by society in some s- uh, some aspects.

Um, like, what is your opinion on, like, you putting yourself out there in the way that you do? And, like, maybe you feel it's brave, maybe you just feel it's-- you have to because it's your existence

Hang Doan: I gotta think about this one a little bit[00:43:00]

I think it's kind of hard to be transitioning while having a public career.

Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.

Hang Doan: I have been on testosterone for over a year now. I probably started about this time last year

It feels like all my achievements are being co-opted by this girl, and I don't know who she is, and I don't- she doesn't exist. Because people will be like, "Oh my God, girl, you're killing it," or like so much love, but I, I went on, I went onto something, talked about my trans experience, and then right after I had to correct them because they were using like she in the captions and all of this stuff.

And I was like, "I just explained all of that to you. That's very frustrating that I had to go and correct it." Um, every single time someone comes up to me and was like, "You're doing so much for women the way you play with gender." So I'm like, "You've seen the videos, and you're still calling me a woman." Or they're like, "Girl power," like, [00:44:00] "Oh my God," like, "Show those men."

And it's like, I'm gonna look and sound completely different in a few years.

Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.

Hang Doan: Show those men. I... It's strange. So I just joke it's like this, this evil, this evil girl that's, that's following me around, and she's taking credit for all my achievements because who are you talking about? I just don't... I don't know.

But at the... And the, and it's very frustrating, but then I also look at like there's plenty other Asian creators that started, like, um, Freddie Chen, previously known as like Frederick Chen, and they, they had their whole career online. Um, they've now transitioned to a woman and like even now their subscribers are still getting used to it.

But that's, that's to kind of calm me in my heart and know like I'm 20. I have time. Um, they transitioned later in life, and, and they're also having to do it with a public audience. Like, it's [00:45:00] gonna be okay. And it's, it's a little scary. I'm in a stage right now where if I can still like pass for like a cisgender girl, and so that's kind of what I put on when I feel really unsafe.

It's like I'm just not gonna talk about it all. But Online, I think real recognize real. Like, I, I hate that, like, in Indiana I have to explain it so hard and then be like, "I love all types of clothing, like feminine, masculine." I was like, "Clothing is just clothes. You put it on a body." But I... So that's what kinda confused me on my gender for a long time.

But I think inherently I know deep in my heart it belongs on a Ken doll Barbie. You're wearing, like- You're wearing a Barbie shirt right now. I am wearing a Barbie shirt. That's so funny. 'Cause I always tell people, like, I know these clothes belong on a Ken's body. So I still wanna be perceived as a man wearing these clothes- if that makes sense.

Michael Zarick: Yeah.

Hang Doan: And I got a message from a trans man in Vietnam, and he was [00:46:00] like, "Thank you for sharing your video." Like, some- I- everybody, like trans men, trans women from, like, different parts of Vietnam that, like, direct messaged me. Like, "Thank you for sharing this. Like, the culture in our country right now is changing, but it can still be hard in some areas, and the video makes me feel less alone."

And then I messaged one of them. I was like, "I don't know why you would ever come to Indiana if you were going to the States, but if you do, I would love to show you my favorite Vietnamese places or, like, bond and try to talk about experience." And then they responded, like, "If you come to Vietnam, like, same here."

I was like, "That's so crazy." It's like we're bridging the grap- gap across the sea. I've never been to Vietnam in my life. Um, any, like, sort of travel I do is usually sponsored by someone that believes in what I'm doing, which I'm really grateful for. Like, I got scholarships to go to Greece. Um, I was able to use some of the excess to go to Colombia, but I still haven't been to Vietnam where, like, I'm from.

Michael Zarick: Mm-hmm.

Hang Doan: Um, but it's cool to know that if I go I'll have someone there [00:47:00] that understands.

Michael Zarick: Yeah. Gorgeous answer. Thank you for sharing. Yeah. Um, ooh, we're gonna move on to what I call the canned questions, and I have to read a sponsor. Third Space Indy is sponsored by City Rising. City Rising is a social impact studio. Most recently, they implemented an eviction data dashboard that looks to highlight and reduce the impact of the over 30,000 evictions , mostly affecting Black and Latina women and children, uh, in Indianapolis every year.

, Learn more at cityrising.org. City Rising has sponsored a question, which is: What is a third space to you?

Hang Doan: I gotta think about this one too.

Michael Zarick: That's okay.

Hang Doan: I knew you were gonna ask this too. I, I was like-

Michael Zarick: Listen to the pod

Hang Doan: What is your answer? 'Cause sometimes that helps me jog, like, what I wanna say.

Michael Zarick: I'm so deeply [00:48:00] ingrained in this conversation that, like, I am kind of strict about this in a way. Like, I really enjoy hearing from other people where it's like, uh- We might be

Hang Doan: sitting here for, like, two minutes while I think about this.

No, that's okay. I, I need to, like, sit in my thoughts. Some

Michael Zarick: people tell me I should talk more on the podcast, which I disagree with, but... No Uh- You're

Hang Doan: a show host. It's the job to listen. Yeah. 'Cause I, I'm try- I'm... I think with Drag Digest, I wanna-

Michael Zarick: Um- ... I wanna be a listener. So you asked, like, what is my answer, and I think, like, I'm pretty strict.

It's like, oh, a third space. I would, I would, like, ref- read from the book ba- literally in a way. Um, but to me, like, my definition at this time, uh, as I would write on the internet, would be like, a third place is somewhere you are not expected to go and spend money, but you feel, um... Sorry, let me rephrase. A third place is somewhere that you can [00:49:00] go be accepted, and there's no expectation of any transaction happening.

But more than likely, you are happy to spend money there because you feel so accepted being there. That's sort of what I would say. Um, but most of the relationship with the business is more, is emotion- business or place, uh, is emotional rather than transactional. That's how I would say it probably.

Hang Doan: I think a third space is where your third true personality comes out, because the third space implies that there's a personality at work, a personality at home with your family, and then who are you? And I think all three of those are you, but when you un-guard yourself and then you liberate yourself, where is your, like, true personality in between that?

Michael Zarick: Mm.

Hang Doan: Because I think I am still myself, like, when I'm at school or work or when I'm at home, but there's certain parts that I kinda [00:50:00] withdraw a little bit. Like, I'll go home... I've talked about this before. I'll go home and be a daughter for my dad's sake And if I know I'm never gonna see someone again, then I don't really take too much effort to tell them about, like, my identity or, like, things that...

It's just, it's just, like, you choose your battles. But in a third space, like, the first time I ever saw a show at Indy Drag Theater, I did not know anyone there. I just sat down, like, in the kind of front row, and I was already thinking in my head, like, "I wanna interview Cici Pasion because she's Asian, and I wanna understand her experience better."

And she came down from the stage, and she, like, made eye contact with me, and I was in such a bummy outfit. I was like, "Oh my God, please don't pick me up while you're in full gr- glam." And then she took me up, and we were, like, dancing together at the end of the show. And then I was like, "Oh my gosh, she held my hands."

And, um, even though I didn't know anybody there, they were like, "Oh, all the [00:51:00] Drag Theater cast and crew come up for a photo," 'cause this was their preview night before the first, like, public showing. And then I was like, "Oh, I'm kind of new to this space, so it's not really for me." And then they were like, "Get in here."

And I was like, "Oh, okay." Um, and then everyone was so nice. There's this impression that we see from, like, reality TV show where, like, drag queens are catty, and, like, it's so- it's true to an extent. Like, it's a performance. It's like that's the space you're in, is, like, learn to take it and dish it. But also, like, everybody has their personality outside of drag, too.

And for some reason I was so scared. I was like, "I do not wanna be overstepping my boundary here." Like, um, they're performers, so I wanna give them their space. I don't wanna be, like, crowding them so much. But they were, like, introducing themselves and, like, um, "Hello, Lolly and Faith. Like, thank you for making me feel very welcome here."

Because they were like, "Oh, we're gonna go grab drinks. Do you wanna come with us?" Give me two months, guys. I'll be with you. And, like, [00:52:00] um, that's where I felt like my third personality comes out.

Michael Zarick: Hmm.

Can I shake your hand? Yes. Excellent. Excellent answer. I, uh, sorry, that was, that was excellent. Um, I was at dinner, or I guess getting food, maybe not dinner, um, before Patrick Armstrong's, uh, live podcast the other day. Mm-hmm. And I was with Andrea Watts, good friend of mine, and, um, our other mutual friend.

Her name is Jordan Ryan. She's the city archivist. Uh, and we were just, like, having the like the most raucous laughter in the middle of this very nice, like, space. Like, everyone else was, like, very quiet, and we were being, like, like, goofy as fuck, like, in the middle of this, uh, like, pretty nice restaurant.

Um, and, like, you talk [00:53:00] about... And less so about, it's less so about the restaurant and more just about, like, being your true self. Like, I think there's a level of, like, when you're performing and when you're doing content, when you're on a podcast, especially with video, there's this idea of perception, um, and being perceived, um, versus, like, existing in space with people you're comfortable with, uh, and being whatever your true self is in that moment.

And I think that's, like, an, uh, an excellent answer. And you... Yeah, I don't know how to say it better than that. Exactly. Um, follow-up question to that question: what is a third space or place that has existed for you previously that no longer does?

Hang Doan: I was ready for this one. Okay, I know there were way too many froyo shops in, like, the early 2000s- Okay, facts

2010s, but we didn't have to get rid of all of them. There's, like, Yoya, and it's, like, kind of a drive away from here, but I can't think [00:54:00] of, like... If you threw froyo on your menu, that doesn't count. It has to have the handles, and I have to be able to take, like, an ungodly amount of sample cups. And now there's, like, more boba shops than froyo spots.

Michael Zarick: It's because boba replaced froyo. I'm so glad you said that.

Hang Doan: But it's not even good boba. I'm sorry, not, not everyone should put a boba and matcha on your cafe 'cause a lot of you guys are kind of bad at it. That's another thing, hot take with Indianapolis is, like, a s- a lot of places in here are just okay, and it's okay to say that.

It's okay to say that. But I need a good froyo place to open up downtown where I can pull the handles and I can be, like, disappointed by how much I put in my cup and it weighs, like, $20, and I just gotta pay for it and finish it.

Michael Zarick: That is, like, the phenomena of, like, 20- gosh, 2013, 2012 froyo shops everywhere.

And then also, like you said, h- putting too much froyo in the cup and then just, like, [00:55:00] smothering it in chocolate sauce and M&Ms or something.

Hang Doan: And you're not thinking about it, and you set it on, and, and that thing costs you, like, 35 bucks.

Michael Zarick: Yeah. That's so funny. So, like, um, do you have, like, a specific memory with froyo sh- like, was there, um, like, going out with friends or, like...

I feel like, so in Louisville, Kentucky, where I'm from, that's where we would go, um, on... There was a, there's a road called Bardstown Road which is, like, the, was and still to an extent is, like, the hip road. Um, it's kind of, in a way, kind of like their, what their Broad R- what our Broad Ripple used to be. Um- And just like going, I just have memories of like going to Qdoba and then going to the froyo shop in high school or whatever.

Did you have something like that?

Hang Doan: I'll paint you a kind of picture. Um So

I, when I say that I went to Fishers High School, people freak out. [00:56:00] And I think I need to remember that, like, there was a time when w- there was a time when my dad, sister, and I would all share this open sleeping bag. So we unzipped it and the three of us would sleep there. And then we had like a dollhouse that he found off of like Facebook Marketplace or Garage Sale.

And then that was like the main setup in our house for like entertainment, was like go to school, play with the dollhouse, sleep on the sleeping bag, repeat. Um, and then we had three Key Bank bags of clothes, like one for my sister, my dad, and me. That was our whole wardrobe was those three bags. And I still think of it as a fun childhood memory, 'cause my dad would just walk us to a bunch of different places.

Like, he would walk us to the library. Um, and then another place that he would take us that was really special was Orangily?

Michael Zarick: Yep.

Hang Doan: Do you know about Orangily? Like- Yeah,

Michael Zarick: it was like a big chain froyo place, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Hang Doan: And Asian families love, like, [00:57:00] taking home the spoons. Those spoons are like colorful and durable and like kind of fun, and so you- The tiny spoons?

You

Michael Zarick: take...

Hang Doan: No, the, the colorful, like, froyo spoons. They're like kinda good for reusing. Not, not tiny. Yeah, they're like normal size. They're like big, normal

Michael Zarick: sized spoons? Yeah. Okay. Like the Menchies or- But they're like a thicker plastic ... they're

Hang Doan: like a thicker plastic. Yeah. And so we'd, we'd grab a bunch of those and, like- Live off those, and like it's such a good memory.

And I'm like I, I know that setting my cup down like made my dad's pockets hurt, but it was such a fun memory, just my sister and I going crazy- That's so funny ... like being annoying kids.

Michael Zarick: Yeah, I feel like the, like the thing about like froyo being like self-serve and them just like letting you spend like $40 on a single cup is so, so silly.

Hang Doan: That's maybe why it went away. That's, that's why we can't have nice things. But I want the experience again. I think

Michael Zarick: froyo's kinda gross. What?

Hang Doan: It's like the best thing. I'm an ice cream

Michael Zarick: purist. That's why I really like Lick. They have excellent ice cream at Lick. [00:58:00] Like they, they make that for real. Um, and I can tell when a place does not make their ice cream.

Um- Yeah ... I don't know. I would- I think

Hang Doan: some places it doesn't even count as ice cream. There's like a butterfat, milk fat percentage- Yeah ... and then it's like dairy product. I don't care, give me the dairy product. Oh, no. I don't know what's in that. It's, it's good. I like it.

Michael Zarick: That's crazy.

I can't do that. It's my favorite. Um, every episode I ask a question from the previous guest.

Hang Doan: All right.

Michael Zarick: The previous guest for this episode is Hannah Hadley, the individual who runs- From

Hang Doan: the Indy Gay Market. I

Michael Zarick: mentioned that earlier.

Hang Doan: Yes.

Michael Zarick: From- Super

Hang Doan: fun ...

Michael Zarick: runs the Indy Gay Market.

Hang Doan: Hannah, what do you got for me?

Michael Zarick: Hannah Hadley asked, "What is a skill you had to go outside to learn?" Most recently?

Hang Doan: Most recently, drag. Um- Oh, that's

Michael Zarick: a...

Hang Doan: Yeah.

Michael Zarick: I really want you to talk more about dr- like, so you mentioned [00:59:00] performing. Like, what is it like to perform drag for you?

Hang Doan: It's like a dumpster fire. I think... Um, how do I explain this? So let me think about how to phrase this

So much of, like, the modeling, acting, and performing industry is actually a humiliation ritual.

Michael Zarick: Mm.

Hang Doan: You go into an audition and you're, like, standing, like, this close to someone, and they're like, their job is very important. Like, I don't know what they do or their name, but I, I know from the way they're sitting this is a very important person.

Or it's just a, like, they're very... But at the same time in the local scene, people are, like, very casual and nice. I think almost the more comfortable with someone, the more comfortable someone is with themself, the more important I find out their job title is. I feel like it's the most chill people that have the most insane jobs, and then the people that tend to talk a lot is usually, like, they're [01:00:00] not a great person.

Michael Zarick: There's a, there's a similar phenomena in, this is gonna, nerd shit, uh, in video games. Like, in competitive video games they always say, like- People who are really good are kind of dicks. Like, but they're, they're not good to be the best. Like, the people just below the best level think they're hot shit, but they can't actually achieve the highest level, but they, they think they're good.

But the people at the tippy, tippy top are, like, always, like, super chill and, like, relaxed about it, 'cause it's like, I don't know.

Hang Doan: Yeah. Most, most

Michael Zarick: of the time. Um, similar concept.

Hang Doan: So I threw myself into this industry, and then, like, on certain casting forms they'll ask, like, um, "Do you know how to do teleprompter?"

And I was like, "Well, we're gonna learn." So thank you to Keawa Modeling Coach. She taught me how to, like, learn the teleprompter that, like, newscasters do. Yep. Um, and she said, like, out of all the things she ... So I did, like, the modeling classes with her, and, like, out of all the things that she showed me, she said I did the best on the teleprompter.

Hmm. And I think it's because of doing [01:01:00] voiceovers- Yeah ... and, like, making videos and stuff. But I'm like, "I'm starting from ground zero." They were like, "Do you know how to do a walk?" And I'm like, "I, I will know by the time I show up to this shoot." Um, like, I will, I will learn it. That's the thing about the industry is, like, you have to say yes, and then it pushes you to learn these skills faster.

Yeah. There's an accountability to it.

Michael Zarick: There's a through line with you, which is just, like, you're, like, very Nike. Like, just do it. Like, you're- Mm-hmm. You're just like, I'm ... I am ... Or what is your, like, um, mentality about, like, failure?

Hang Doan: Just do it again. You need more failures. You need, you need to eat failures for breakfast.

Like, get comfortable with it. I don't ... There's so many people that I'll notice in the audition room where maybe it's because they've been doing performing arts their entire life, ground up, and they've had this insane pressure on their shoulders, and they're incredible performers. They're, like, leagues above me.

Oh my God. But I think that kind of becomes part of what holds them back a little bit. [01:02:00] Because you're scared that, like, if you don't get this audition, it says something about your character because you have all this talent that you've poured into something. It doesn't. A lot of times casting is just a puzzle piece.

It might not be because you ... You could have been the most talented person in that room, and they won't cast you just because of the chemistry with the other people for this project.

And so I just think about it like, it doesn't matter. It doesn't say anything about me. I just need to get more reps in.

I am on my, like, 24th audition, and I've had so many, like, crazy audition stories. Like, I auditioned for the Fever Inferno team. Like, the dance team- that comes out during halftime. Mm-hmm. And the best dancers in Indianapolis show up to that audition room. And I've already lost the choreo by, like, the 30-minute mark.

Like, I'm just flopping my arms around and, like ... I was like, "But the one thing I cannot do during this audition is go sit down," because I did see, like, maybe two or three people get overwhelmed and they just left. Um- y- I cannot do that. No matter what, I have to stay up here and I have [01:03:00] to move. And then they called me up for my audition.

It was like every single process of this, I wanted to throw up. I was sitting at Gainbridge and, like, looking down the street, and I was like, "My car is parked over there. I could slip out this door right now. I could call for a bathroom break and run back to my car, and I wouldn't say anything 'cause there's so many people here."

And I was like, "Nope, go up there." And people were just being so nice about it. They're like, "You're gonna do great." And I'm like, "I don't, I don't think you're ready." I don't... And I, I hit, like, a something. I could tell it was really bad, but I held it and I kept my energy up. And so I sat back down, and one of my friends was like, "At least you moved."

And I was like, "At least I moved." And I just do that to throw yourself into a space and get used to the water because the water's not gonna get any warmer the longer you wait to jump into it. You just have to go. Mm. So I do that, and then take a step back. Acting is playing pretend. It's not that serious.

Nothing about this industry is, like, that serious. We're all pretending to have a role, and then you just take what you [01:04:00] can learn from that and then do it again 10 times over. And so I did that with Drag. The first episode with Cici, which you'll see, is, like, I was in these crazy heels, and I wasn't particularly interested in girlhood as much as a kid.

So I... Heels, makeup was not my thing. But then I see artists like Gottmik and Ciara Mist and stuff play with, like, makeup and gender in such a fun way where I was like, "I'm gonna learn it, and I'm gonna learn it now." And it's just the more you do something, you're just gonna get better.

Michael Zarick: Excellent. What, um...

Two last questions. What do you want out of life?

Hang Doan: I wanna be hot, rich, and famous and never work a day again. No. Hey.

Michael Zarick: Bang. You've already got like half of those.

Hang Doan: My, my real answer, um-

I have a lot of people that sometimes size me up or kind of discredit me because my follower [01:05:00] account isn't super high, which is, like, a really weird mindset that people have. It's, it's really strange. I don't, I don't think that's, like, a measurement for how much you should respect someone. But, like- Let me

Michael Zarick: tell you about my brain chemistry.

I've decided that if someone, if anyone likes you... Like, imagine walking out into the street and you say something, and 10 people walk up to you and shake your hand because they liked it. Thank

Hang Doan: you. Thank you. Thank you. No, like,

Michael Zarick: that's, that's how, like, if you get 10 likes on a post, like, that's impressive.

That means- Shout

Hang Doan: out to my 10 people ...

Michael Zarick: I'm not even mess- Like, if you were to walk out in the street in the middle of downtown in Memorial Circle, and you said something and 10 people walked up, shake your hand, gave you a high five, you would feel amazing for the whole day. And I feel like if you're getting 10 likes on a post, you should feel like a god.

Hang Doan: I'm such a big celebrator of all my achievements, no matter how small. It truly doesn't matter to me. There's a lot of people that are like, "Oh, it's never enough. It's never enough. I want more. And wanting more is what is gonna make you even [01:06:00] better." And, like, I have that competitive spirit for sure But at the same time, like, I'm so happy.

I'm just happy to be here. Like, uh, I think you, you probably saw this attitude, like, through high school too of, like, I got a C, I'm just happy I made it. I think, um, I, I played a, like, extra in a commercial with Caitlin Clark, and I didn't even make it into the shot. I was like, I was, like, kind of subtly, not trying to be annoying about it, but I was trying to, like, kind of make sure I get into a shot, and then I didn't even make it into it.

But yeah, I'm just happy I was there, and I'm just happy I got to see, like, what a commercial looks like. That was fun. Yeah. You know, if experience is the goal, then you're always gonna win. Mm. And you're just always gonna be happy. I think I've gotten to experience so many wonderful things that people might not even get to experience in their lifetime despite having, like, a bigger audience than me and things like that.

'Cause, like, I'm rich in a sense. Um, [01:07:00] don't fact check that, but, like, I'm rich in the sense that, like, look at this pretty park that we have around us. I'm rich in the sense that, like, I have really amazing friends, and they take efforts to stay in touch with me. I have teachers that take efforts to stay in touch with me.

Mm. That makes me really freaking rich. Facts. So I'm, I'm so excited, like, any time, no matter how small or how big of a opportunity, like, I'm rich for that. That's so cool.

Michael Zarick: Yeah.

Hang Doan: Yeah.

Michael Zarick: Gorgeous answer. Uh, what did you... You mentioned so- oh, being in a commercial. So I was in, um, Alexa Adamson did a, uh, uh, at Alley Cat Ceramics, did a thing with The Fever for, like, a small business, like, grant that they're doing.

Uh, and they had, like, Freddy Fever and their whole, like, media team come out to do a recording. And I was there, uh, as, like, quote unquote, "An extra." And, like, they published the video, and it's, like, my leg. Have you ever seen, have you ever seen SpongeBob where in the, it's like- My

[01:08:00] leg.

Or, or no, it's more like, uh, he's like, "I was in the commercial," and it's, like, SpongeBob's hat in the background.

Uh, that's how I felt. I was like, "Oh, there's my leg."

Hang Doan: Like, getting- That's the, the fun, weird part of commercial modeling is I saw a girl post a video of, like, "I don't know if anyone's been to Chili's recently, but I was the hand that dipped the mozzarella stick in the menu." Right. Right. Yeah. Like, commercial modeling has so many little random jobs like that.

Like, I'm, I'm in some random brochure. I'm in someone's work training video. I, I, and that's something I think about, like, if I ever have the privilege of making it big someday, is, like, someone's gonna have their work training and I'm in the manual video-

Michael Zarick: Mm ...

Hang Doan: on these, like, random jobs because I really am the person that will say yes to anything.

Like, quite literally anything.

Michael Zarick: Uh- One last question. I think you know what it is. What question would you like to ask the next Third Space Indy guest?

Hang Doan: Need another two [01:09:00] minutes for that. Thank you two. You prepped for

Michael Zarick: one of the questions.

Hang Doan: I prepped for the Froyo one really hard, 'cause I was like, "What's a third space that doesn't exi-..." I could go like, there's probably a deeper answer to this.

I think the deeper answer to, like, a third space I miss is, like, the childhood home I grew up in, which my dad kind of felt ashamed about 'cause he was like, "It's small." But I was like, "I think it was a nice home, and I think he did the best he could in it." And that's a place I can't go, but I thought about it.

I was like, I could knock on their door and be like, "I used to live here, and I'm really attached to this home. Would you mind if I just, like, step in there?" "Just let me take a look around. I wanna go to where my room was." Which is, that, that's such a weird thing. That'll get you kicked out of a

Michael Zarick: neighborhood.

Hang Doan: Um, or like something deep like that. But I was like, no, I really miss a Froyo place. Um- That's

Michael Zarick: respectable.

Hang Doan: What do I wanna ask someone else? Genuinely give me two minutes. Um-

Do you know who's gonna come on next?

Michael Zarick: I do, and I will not tell you.

Hang Doan: Why?

Michael Zarick: Uh, just in case they cancel. The, I've, I've had it happen [01:10:00] before.

Hang Doan: Aw.

I think my question for the next guest is why would you be your own enemy? And what I mean by that is, like-

Michael Zarick: So good. Sorry ...

Hang Doan: this industry, I recognize, is gonna be brutal, and I realize that, like, no matter how optimistic I am, I realize the deeper I go into this industry, it's gonna be a uphill climb, and it's going to be so brutal.

But I also know there's a casting director out there that's looking for a Vietnamese trans-masculine person, because for a long time I was running through auditions like, "I should just audition for girl parts." And then you realize, um, and it's not a dig or anything, just how it is, there's a lot of girls in theater.

And then by standing strong in my identity, like, that is how you get cast, and that's how people remember you, 'cause then people would s- I feel like I've been to so many auditions now where they're starting to remember me Which I don't know if it's a good or a bad thing. Like- Like ... "Man, this kid again?"

Michael Zarick: They're back again.

Hang Doan: Um- And I, [01:11:00] one thing, I don't know if you wanna include this in the show or not, some- another thing I've learned through this industry is, like, there's been so many times I'll do an audition, and the panel's, like, eating it up, and they're, like, loving me down. And they're like, "Oh my gosh."

Like, I heard, uh, someone mutter one time, like, "They would play a good Gretchen or Regina." Like, Regina George from Mean Girls? Oh my gosh, that's a dream role. Or, like, they're hyping me up, and then you don't get cast. There was one audition where they looked like they hated me. Like, I sang that piece.

Theater's a great humiliation ritual if you wanna build confidence to anything. Like, that's the best way to build tolerance for these type of things. They looked like they wanted me to burn and die, like, their face... And then I got cast as a lead. So come see me play Jay in Carmel Community Players' Descendants.

Um, hi directors, Tanya and Sam, I know you guys are very sweet now, but I just have a lot of anxiety, and I just thought- ... you guys hated my audition. And I was like, they made me a lead, and not just a lead, like, a masculine [01:12:00] character. My character has, like, a lot of raps in the show. Mm-hmm. He has, like, um... Ooh, this is something that I kinda wanna talk about that I think would be fun to include- Yeah, I don't have

Michael Zarick: to...

Yeah, we can do it ... however you edit

Hang Doan: this. But, um- It's all in

Michael Zarick: order.

Hang Doan: Something, something I love about playing my role as Jay in Descendants is, like... Have you, did you grow up on the Descendants movies?

Michael Zarick: No.

Hang Doan: Okay. I have no- So- ...

Michael Zarick: concept of this.

Hang Doan: Disney's Descendants is a spinoff of, of, like, the classic Disney fairy tales, and so it's, like, the four kids of Disney villains go to, like- Oh

Auradon Prep School. Yes. And then it's, like, a chance for them to have a chance at being good and being redeemed. Yes. I remember this. And my character is the son of Jafar.

Michael Zarick: Mm. And

Hang Doan: I kinda love playing- And their name is Jay? Yeah, their name is Jay.

Michael Zarick: Jayfar. I see it. Jayfar. Yeah.

Hang Doan: Um, my favorite part of my character is it is so fun to play a villain, and there's so many scenes, like, this show is so unserious.

It's not like I'm gonna pull away a deeper contextual [01:13:00] meaning of how it relates to my transness, but the show is so s- like, silly stupid. It's Disney. Have fun. But all the kids will be chanting, like, "These evil kids have got to go," and I'm like, "This is genuinely what some of you Republican senators sound like to me, beefing with a kid."

And I love it. Fun facts. It makes me thrive in my character because my character's, like, very fun and confident, and, like, I get to have all these, like, fun solo moments in the show and soak it all up. And I love, I love being an antagonist. I think I would not have as much fun playing, like, a good character versus just a bad character.

I love villains that take up space on the stage, and they just have so much presence, and they're probably terrible people, like I wouldn't wanna be friends with a villain in real life, but they are so fun to watch in a movie. That's, like, a sign an actor's incredible. I love it. I'm thriving in that space.

Why are you being an enemy to yourself? Because in this industry, there's gonna be so many people that are gonna beat you down. There's gonna be so many comments about your body, your skin, who you are, [01:14:00] your race, everything. They say like, "Oh, this type of actor, you can't become a model. You don't look like...

Oh, you don't look like a high fashion model. That's too bad, baby." It's so fun to be who you are, and like, if there's gonna be a million people in this industry that are gonna try to make me be f- feeling small, I am not gonna be one of them, okay? I'm rooting for myself all the way there. No matter how many skills I'm missing, I will learn and pick them up.

I will go as I go, and like, no one in this industry's gonna be able to make me feel small

Michael Zarick: I don't know how to do anything other than end on that.

Hang Doan: Right.

Michael Zarick: Just to wrap it up though, the question is why would you be your own enemy?

Hang Doan: Why would you be your own enemy? Cheer for yourself.

Michael Zarick: Let's go. Yeah.

Heng. If you want to be found, where can the people find you on the internet?

Hang Doan: Okay.

Michael Zarick: Hopefully not in real life, unless you want me to- Come see

Hang Doan: Disney's Descendants at Carmel Community Players [01:15:00] in June.

Um, come find You can come see Carmel Community Players' Disney's Descendants on the weekend of the 12th to 14th of June, or the weekend of the 18th through 21st.

Okay. Okay. So this

Michael Zarick: is coming out on the 15th, so this coming weekend,

Hang Doan: if you- This coming weekend we have shows. You can go online to find the tickets all weekend long. Come see the show. You can find me on socials. Please subscribe to the YouTube. Subscribe to the YouTube so I can quit my job. So I can quit my job.

I don't even have a job. Subscribe to YouTube so I can be never working a day in my life again.

Michael Zarick: What's the YouTube?

Hang Doan: Um, Hang Ho Mai. So H-A-N-G H-O-A M-A-I. If you give them the link tree, it'll take them to everywhere. Um, watch the first episode of Drag Digest, which will hopefully be out by the time this episode airs.

Also on

Michael Zarick: Hang Ho Mai?

Hang Doan: Yeah.

Michael Zarick: Amazing. So exciting. Anywhere else? Anything else to plug?

Hang Doan: [01:16:00] Um, all the socials, Instagram, TikTok, everywhere, but especially the YouTube. I have a dream of quitting short-form content. I don't like what it's done to, like, our brains. Totally. I don't like how it compresses stories. If you tried to compress this whole thing in 30 seconds, it'd be miserable.

Michael Zarick: Did you see... Uh, so I do a food show with Amanda Gibson, Amanda Indy.

Hang Doan: I love Amanda.

Michael Zarick: And, uh, someone commented on one of our, uh, clips. They were like, "Hey, I tried to watch this, but it was an hour long. That's too long. Can you cut it down to 15 minutes?" And-

Hang Doan: You all need to learn how to absorb long-form content Put on a podcast, put on a movie.

Nowadays- ... watching a movie to completion without checking your phone does feel low-key productive. But you need to learn how to do that, because I'm not gonna be on short-form much longer. I wanna make long videos. I wanna get to really show my personality and be able to tell people's stories.

Michael Zarick: Facts. Hey, thanks so much for watching or listening this, to this episode of Third Space Indy. You can find me by going to Third Space Indy on Instagram or by going to thirdspaceindy.com where I write a blog and [01:17:00] release it with the show notes.

Thanks so much to City Rising for sponsoring the podcast, and thank you so much to Proformus. Proformus is an urban planning and design firm that helps neighbors and communities shape the places they already love. Based in Indianapolis, they're here to help you make your place happen one block at a time.

Thank you to Proformus and as always, thank you to the local artist Jennasen for letting me use your song Scared Rabbit as the intro song to the podcast. Thank you once again for listening, and see you in the next one. Goodbye.

[01:18:00]